big of a complicated situation

[Webgirl]

I would suggest the FSB advice may be fair if this were a supply to a customer rather than to a business. A business is not expected to need every little detail spelled out. This is the price for 1 website, this is the deal for 5, is perfectly clear that if 5 are not bought, the price is the per website one.

yes I agree but also it;s not that it's not fair it's just that I didn't get their confirmation in writing. if I had then I could pursue

 

[Mark T Jones]

Stop over-thinking and inventing their defence for them.

The LBA is aimed to either jolt them in to paying or to give an indication what their defence will be - it will cost the price of signed-for delivery

Suspending their site is your mallet.

Depending of the outcome of those things, you can make a choice whether to go legal or cut your losses.

In line with your title - this really isn't a complicated situation - Uncomfortable & unfortunate maybe - but really a pretty straight-forward trade dispute.

 

[Webgirl]

Did they put or confirm the deal in an email? If so, that would probably do, depending on the wording.

we have evidence that they agreed to the package costs and the payment plan but not that they understood if they pulled out of the package that the original quote for single sites would be what price would be based on.

 

[DontAsk]

we have evidence that they agreed to the package costs and the payment plan but not that they understood if they pulled out of the package that the original quote for single sites would be what price would be based on.

As already stated it's implicit that they had a price for individual packages and a price for a deal. They reneged on the deal so they pay the full price.

 

[Newchodge]

yes I agree but also it;s not that it's not fair it's just that I didn't get their confirmation in writing. if I had then I could pursue

I said that the FSB advice may be fair. Not that fairness has anything to do with your case. The FSB, and organisations like them that offer free legal advice, employ lawyers to give that advice. They are all very risk averse, if they agree that you have a case there will be a cost to the organisation paying them.

 

[fisicx]

@Webgirl - you appear to be hoping there will some magical solution to your problem. There isn't one. You have given them a free website (and presumably hosting) that they are not going to pay for.

Doesn't matter about any legal advice - unless you shut down the websites today they are going to keep taking the mick.

 

[Webgirl]

As already stated it's implicit that they had a price for individual packages and a price for a deal. They reneged on the deal so they pay the full price.

yeah but according to the lawyer I spoke to that's not enough. if they didn't agree to it going back to individual costs if they didn't complete the package, they can easily argue that 50% of the package cost stands. I was surprised by this but I am not a lawyer.

 

[Webgirl]

@Webgirl - you appear to be hoping there will some magical solution to your problem. There isn't one. You have given them a free website (and presumably hosting) that they are not going to pay for.

Doesn't matter about any legal advice - unless you shut down the websites today they are going to keep taking the mick.

I disagree, it is complicated because of the advice I have been given by a lawyer. it doesn't seem that straightforwards anymore. I understand completely that I am just being manipulated and taken for a ride.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I disagree, it is complicated because of the advice I have been given by a lawyer. it doesn't seem that straightforwards anymore. I understand completely that I am just being manipulated and taken for a ride.

The debtor is very lucky to have you on their side

It absolutely isn't complicated - however you may not be feeling that you want the fight, which is fine.

What you must do, as suggested by @pentel is to forget it move on - whilst learning important lessons:

Be absolutely clear on quoting - including payment terms

Have a proper credit control process (or don't offer credit) - and follow it.

Don't make your business dependent on a single party, whether it's a customer, supplier or intermediary.

 

[DontAsk]

yeah but according to the lawyer I spoke to that's not enough. if they didn't agree to it going back to individual costs if they didn't complete the package, they can easily argue that 50% of the package cost stands. I was surprised by this but I am not a lawyer.

Lets get some real data.

Have they paid anything at all?

What was the quote for the package?

What were the individual quotes. Which bits were completed and and what's your invoice figure for the work completed?

Where does your £800, that you think they owe, fit into this?

Have they actually suggested that they agree to 50% of the package cost, or was that just the lawyer speaking?

Is what you have completed actually 50% of the package, or...?

[Edit] What's the financial difference between what you want (£800?) and simply invoicing for what you have completed, based on the package, rather than individual price?[/Edit]

Ditch the emotion and look at the cold hard figures. You talk about reputational risk. Is it really worth it? If not, you can still take satisfaction from dumping them as a client with a proverbial two-fingered salute.

They have a reputation too, so turn it on it's head and warn other developers not to deal with this client.

 

[Webgirl]

The debtor is very lucky to have you on their side

It absolutely isn't complicated - however you may not be feeling that you want the fight, which is fine.

What you must do, as suggested by @pentel is to forget it move on - whilst learning important lessons:

Be absolutely clear on quoting - including payment terms

Have a proper credit control process (or don't offer credit) - and follow it.

Don't make your business dependent on a single party, whether it's a customer, supplier or intermediary.

my business is not dependent on a single party, I have now and have had in the past many clients. This isn't even about the money to be honest, it's about feeling like I am being manipulated and gaslit about something that should be straightforward. The 'complicated' is the way the payment terms were agreed which I accept isn't tight enough for a legal case it seems but at the time I would never have thought that a verbal agreement wasn't enough plus which I clearly didn't think he would then turn the tables and make it all about something else. lesson learned. I'm just glad this is a very isolated case. 15 years of business and only 3 unpaid invoices 9small) and no need to take someone to small claims to this point.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

to be honest I am concerned about reputation. the owner of the business is well connected and we have lots of people in common. I don't want to give him a sob story that he can use against me

So you get in there first with your sob story!!!

Everyone's advice has generally been good.

Tne only thing that seems to be stopping you moving forward now appears to be you!

 

[Webgirl]

Lets get some real data.

Have they paid anything at all?

yes, they paid 3 different payment instalments as agreed. This does not cover the first two websites delivered hence the additional final invoice. I also included training/ support in the package price which is usually a separate cost so I have also added that as I don't think they get freebies when they pull out.

What was the quote for the package?

What were the individual quotes. Which bits were completed and and what's your invoice figure for the work completed?

Where does your £800, that you think they owe, fit into this?

the additional invoice raised at the end of the project when they pulled out on the final 3 sites is just to bring the amount paid to the amount of the two sites when costed out as individual sites. None of it is about the 3 sites they didn't have designed and built. I don't think they owe it, it's all based on the detailed quote they were given at the beginning before the agreed what to go ahead with which had separate costs for each website and a cost for doing all of them as a package price.

Have they actually suggested that they agree to 50% of the package cost, or was that just the lawyer speaking?

they agreed it verbally at the time. this is the sticking point. the lawyer says we need to be able to prove that they agreed to this, because them getting the individual quotes and the package price is not enough even though it's common sense you wouldn't continue to give or expect the discount to the two websites out of the agreed 5.

Is what you have completed actually 50% of the package, or...?

[Edit] What's the financial difference between what you want (£800?) and simply invoicing for what you have completed, based on the package, rather than individual price?[/Edit]

Ditch the emotion and look at the cold hard figures. You talk about reputational risk. Is it really worth it? If not, you can still take satisfaction from dumping them as a client with a proverbial two-fingered salute.

I am not prepared to be manipulated. they aren't even replying about the package price, they are now making it about the sites not being good enough even though the points they raise are ridiculous and highly subjective and more or less all to do with the amount of content they have on the site and how they have formatted some of it. that's their reason now for not paying, even though this isn't the reason they gave at the time and they have then ignored the invoice and my emails since December. they only gave me this 'problems' with the sites version of events in the last 2 days when I threatened small claims court. as for ditch the emotion, all my responses to this client have been totally without emotion, unlike theirs where they blather on about not getting in touch for 2 months because of family issues and being really busy on other projects etc and saying how they are 'disappointed' with me etc etc. I have stuck to the facts in all of my comms with them and ignored all the personal info stuff they seem to want to include.

They have a reputation too, so turn it on it's head and warn other developers not to deal with this client.

believe me if I get one whiff of them badmouthing me I will have no hesitation in responding publicly but I wouldn't want to cast the first stone.

 

[Webgirl]

So you get in there first with your sob story!!!

Everyone's advice has generally been good.

Tne only thing that seems to be stopping you moving forward now appears to be you!

thanks for your heartfelt and considered response.

 

[fisicx]

I disagree, it is complicated because of the advice I have been given by a lawyer.

Its a not complicated at all. I went through the same thing a long time ago. You had a contract. They reneged on the contract and didn't pay for your services. You are now within your rights to withdraw those services until the invoice has been paid. It's very simple.

 

[Mark T Jones]

my business is not dependent on a single party, I have now and have had in the past many clients. This isn't even about the money to be honest, it's about feeling like I am being manipulated and gaslit about something that should be straightforward. The 'complicated' is the way the payment terms were agreed which I accept isn't tight enough for a legal case it seems but at the time I would never have thought that a verbal agreement wasn't enough plus which I clearly didn't think he would then turn the tables and make it all about something else. lesson learned. I'm just glad this is a very isolated case. 15 years of business and only 3 unpaid invoices 9small) and no need to take someone to small claims to this point.

We're going round in circles, so I'll bow out with a final point

If I was the aggrieved creditor, the LBA would be in the post now. In 15 days it will be my (informed) decision whether/how to proceed through the courts.

 

[pentel]

they can easily argue that 50% of the package cost stands

Are you saying that you were going to produce 5 websites for less than the price of 4?

What numbers are we talking about here?

Price per website if produced separately?

Bulk price for 5 websites?

How much have they paid?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

to be honest I am concerned about reputation. the owner of the business is well connected and we have lots of people in common.

There's a huge difference between being well connected and well respected. First rule of sales 'never knock the competition'. The strength of your argument is simple. They were happy with your previous work. They were happy with the work you were doing/had done. They weren't happy until it came time to pay. That's the story, that's all you have to say on the matter. People aren't stupid.

we have evidence that they agreed to the package costs and the payment plan but not that they understood if they pulled out of the package that the original quote for single sites would be what price would be based on.

Every regular Joe understands that if you buy one of anything it's more expensive than if you buy several. Every businessman or woman would definitely understand it.............and the Judge! Your debtor would look pretty stupid if they disagreed.