Apprentice Dismissal

[lukeh1101]

Good Afternoon All,

We have an apprentice who doesn't seem to be stepping up to the mark with regards his college work and his general attitude isn't good enough, especially at college.
The tutors have had numerous meetings with him regarding his attendance and also him being behind with work.
We are now at the point where we know there are several other students who would more than appreciate the opportunity he has, and we feel we are starting to waste our time training him.
We want to give him one more opportunity but if there isn't a dramatic change we would expect to replace him.
Has anyone had experience with dismissing apprentices? I know they are well protected (and rightfully so if they do the job to the best of their ability and commit to their study) but when they dont put effort we feel he doesnt deserve the place he has.

Thanks

 

[internetspaceships]

Was he placed with you through a training provider or did you get him direct?

We've had bad apprentices through training providers and we have just let them deal with the dismissal.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Have you spoke to him about his conduct, and if so to what degree? eg have you issued and warnings etc?

 

[maxine]

Another vote to let the learning provider dismiss if you can. Or, call ACAS to get some guidance from them

 

[sjbeale]

You do need to sit down and have a formal documented discussion with him about the situation to try and get him to improve. You need to find out if he needs any extra support or training. You should review the matter weekly with documented meetings and give it few more months.

If ultimately you do decide to dismiss you need to pay him the value of the apprentice contract otherwise he would take you to an employment tribunal for breach of contract.

 

[internetspaceships]

Please clarify "the value of the apprentice contract"

 

[HGSecurity]

Wouldn't this depend on the terms under which he was taken on? IIRC, when new employees are taken on and put on a 'probationary' period, the normal rules of disciplinary and dismissal procedures do not apply, and if they fail to meet expectations you can let them go before the end of the probationary period. Obviously the fair way would be to explain to them first about your concerns and give them the chance to improve.
I don't have any experience of apprenticeships, but is it not the same as a probationary period?

 

[lukeh1101]

Thanks for all the reply's.
We did take him on through a probationary period and he seemed to have the skills required, however due to the nature of the work he was only able to do basic work within the workshop and the course hadn't really got into the stage where he was having to really commit time outside of work and college.
We have lost our faith in him now. We will be having a meeting with him and consulting our employment representatives.
Our issue is that we offer brilliant training and he gets to work with employees who have vast experience. The apprentice is able to use a variety of ultra-modern machinery and therefore techniques and we don't feel he appreciates it and there are a number of other students looking for this type of opportunity but we are now tied to our apprentice who we don't feel deserves this any longer.

We had a meeting with him and his college tutor who wanted to come into our workshop so we could address his attitude together. He was set identified targets for the following week which he didn't meet with the excuse that he had other things to do.

We are just unsure of how long we have to let this run until we can justify legally that he is not fulfilling our expectations.

 

[Steve Sellers]

The problem is OP, is that you are fairly limited in what you can do. Unless there is something making it impossible to teach him then you will struggle to justify a dismissal without notice[the remainder of the length of the fixed term agreement].

Moving the apprentice by agreement could be another alternative.

 

[maxine]

Thanks for all the reply's.
We did take him on through a probationary period and he seemed to have the skills required, however due to the nature of the work he was only able to do basic work within the workshop and the course hadn't really got into the stage where he was having to really commit time outside of work and college.
We have lost our faith in him now. We will be having a meeting with him and consulting our employment representatives.
Our issue is that we offer brilliant training and he gets to work with employees who have vast experience. The apprentice is able to use a variety of ultra-modern machinery and therefore techniques and we don't feel he appreciates it and there are a number of other students looking for this type of opportunity but we are now tied to our apprentice who we don't feel deserves this any longer.

We had a meeting with him and his college tutor who wanted to come into our workshop so we could address his attitude together. He was set identified targets for the following week which he didn't meet with the excuse that he had other things to do.

We are just unsure of how long we have to let this run until we can justify legally that he is not fulfilling our expectations.

My understanding of things I have read is that you have to have a pretty big reason for dismissal ie; Gross misconduct things rather than minor / poor performance things / lateness / sickness etc.

Otherwise the 'contract value' can be up to the end of the apprenticeship period or until they gain employment as another apprentice somewhere else.

It's a bit feeble if you want to get rid of someone for repeated minor offenses that would usually become gross misconduct and it's especially difficult if other staff think they are being given favourable treatment (which they probably are) but I think that's the way it is.

There's some useful reading here...

http://www.lge.gov.uk/lge/core/page.do?pageId=3577861

and http://www.thelawatwork.com/page12.htm#APPRENTICESHIPS

 

[internetspaceships]

That's why we use a training provider - we chuck them back if they are useless and let the provider worry about the contract.

 

[lukeh1101]

Thanks, I'm sure if companies taking on apprentices know the full restrictions in place to prevent the dismissal of apprentices they would think twice. We would look to get another straight on with more input from the college as we have had brilliant apprentices before and we are sure there are plenty more.

Do you know if this applies? - The Apprenticeships (Form of Apprenticeship Agreement) Regulations 2012.
http://www.russellhrconsulting.co.uk/blog/2012/06/apprentice-apprehension-removed/

Tried doing a bit of research. Not that I dont trust our HR consultants, just im assuming its much easier for them to tell us to stick with him rather than go through the process of dismissal.

Thanks

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

We have an apprentice who doesn't seem to be stepping up to the mark with regards his college work and his general attitude isn't good enough, especially at college.
The tutors have had numerous meetings with him regarding his attendance and also him being behind with work.
We are now at the point where we know there are several other students who would more than appreciate the opportunity he has, and we feel we are starting to waste our time training him.

This in itself doesn’t appear to be sufficient reason to contemplate dismissal – you haven’t suggested that he isn’t performing, just not as well as he (or or others) might.

We did take him on through a probationary period and he seemed to have the skills required, however due to the nature of the work he was only able to do basic work within the workshop and the course hadn't really got into the stage where he was having to really commit time outside of work and college.
We have lost our faith in him now. We will be having a meeting with him and consulting our employment representatives.

We are just unsure of how long we have to let this run until we can justify legally that he is not fulfilling our expectations.

Are you still in that probationary period? That would influence how long you should let this run.

Do you know if this applies? - The Apprenticeships (Form of Apprenticeship Agreement) Regulations 2012.

There are lots of common & statutory laws that will apply, and these will be influenced by the contracts you issued, and when he started. Is he just an apprentice, or is an employment contract in place too? And when did he start?

Not that I dont trust our HR consultants, just im assuming its much easier for them to tell us to stick with him rather than go through the process of dismissal.

That’s always the easy answer, and a common one for some of the bigger firms – they often would directly have to cover the cost of any claim if you took action against him, so easier for them to suggest you do nothing – or perhaps expressing things differently, as they did in this case (see post four).

It could be possible to dismiss, but this will be determined as much by the contracts in place as the actual reason you want to rely upon for dismissal – not stepping up to the mark as much as you think others would isn’t going to be sufficient. A breach of the contract – failing to fulfil his side of this, such as attending college regularly – could well be though. As they have the benefits of knowing what contracts are in place, and what these say, you should press your HR for the reasons why they don’t think action is appropriate, why it’s easier to stick with him rather than dismiss.


Karl Limpert

 

[Jet Virtual]

Good Afternoon All,

We have an apprentice who doesn't seem to be stepping up to the mark with regards his college work and his general attitude isn't good enough, especially at college.
The tutors have had numerous meetings with him regarding his attendance and also him being behind with work.
We are now at the point where we know there are several other students who would more than appreciate the opportunity he has, and we feel we are starting to waste our time training him.
We want to give him one more opportunity but if there isn't a dramatic change we would expect to replace him.
Has anyone had experience with dismissing apprentices? I know they are well protected (and rightfully so if they do the job to the best of their ability and commit to their study) but when they dont put effort we feel he doesnt deserve the place he has.

Thanks

Always best to offer the apprentice something like 2 weeks unpaid work and then dismiss in a 'nice' way.