Apprentice attendance problem

[jackso11]

I have an apprentice who just keeps on calling in sick for 1 day here and 1 day there.

I gave him his first annual review a month and a half ago and showed him his attendance record...19 sick days in 10 months! I explained the impact it is having on business and outlined that we all have extreme circumstances occasionally that mean we need to be off work sick but this is far too much and got him to commit to being more reliable. I also told him that unless he could prove he was actually ill I wouldn't be able to pay him for sick days going forward and SSP doesn't kick in until he has had 4 days off in a row.
Since then he has had no days off....or so it would seem.

On Wednesdays he goes to college (still a paid day) and I found out last week he has been skipping college. I have requested an attendance record from college which I am waiting for, but in the mean time I asked him how college was last week and he has given me details of his fictional attendance and outlined what he did throughout the day. Today is Wednesday so he should be at college, I drove past his house on the way to work and his car was still at home, I sent him a text asking if he is in college for just the morning or a full day as we could do with help at work, he replied saying he will find out after his break. I called the college, he has called in sick.

I want to give him a written warning but should I be giving him more than just a warning as he is out and out lying about his whereabouts? Should this be gross misconduct and he be fired? Or should I just sit down with him and give him a written warning and tell him if he does it twice more employment will be terminated. I am quite a lenient employer and feel I have given him chance after chance.

 

[jackso11]

Also he has a week booked off in december, can I tell him that as he is lying and has had over 30 days off (according to attendance record from the college) can I tell him he won't get paid for holiday going forward?

 

[sg1982]

He lied to you. That's breach of trust, dismiss him.

 

[Easy Loans Company]

He seems downright dishonest to me. We all "swing the lead" a bit when we're younger, but after speaking to him about attendance, he then does it again whilst lying to you about it. I'm not sure I could trust him again.

 

[jackso11]

So you think dismissal? Legally could I just do that without a warning? Or is lying enough to mean no trust and dismissed?

 

[ineedadollar]

give him the chop, I was an appretice back when i was 18 and had alot of days off, but didnt make stuff up, I felt that there wasnt enough work for me at work, but saying your in college when your not is bad so sack him

 

[Ste B]

Do you have a written contract with terms of employment?

19 days is a total joke. Plus the fact he lied to you. That is gross misconduct and should lead to termination of his contract.

I had an apprentice and wrote in his contract that there would be a six month review - based on attendance & performance. He used to have lots of sick days when he was supposed to be at college. I told him due to him missing college he wasn't going to pass his course so I let him go.

It was very hard as he was a nice lad, but at the end of the day, it's your business and livelihood so it's best for both if you part ways. I haven't looked back.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Since then he has had no days off....or so it would seem.

On Wednesdays he goes to college (still a paid day) and I found out last week he has been skipping college. I have requested an attendance record from college which I am waiting for, but in the mean time I asked him how college was last week and he has given me details of his fictional attendance and outlined what he did throughout the day. Today is Wednesday so he should be at college, I drove past his house on the way to work and his car was still at home, I sent him a text asking if he is in college for just the morning or a full day as we could do with help at work, he replied saying he will find out after his break. I called the college, he has called in sick.

You need to take action for this alone, and done properly will leave no need to deal with the sick leave issue - although under other circumstances, it would be appropriate to deal with that too.

I want to give him a written warning but should I be giving him more than just a warning as he is out and out lying about his whereabouts? Should this be gross misconduct and he be fired?

This should be gross misconduct, serious breach of trust, with summary dismissal. It would be sensible to go through the formalities of a disciplinary procedure, but that should be done ASAP, with dismissal the likely outcome - although that should only be decided once the disciplinary procedures have given him a chance to respond to the allegations.


Karl Limpert

 

[The Byre]

Dear Mr Goofy Apprentice,

It is with deep regret that we have had to come to the conclusion that your continuing health problems are now so severe that a positive outcome to your apprenticeship is at present impossible.

We also note that your health problems have impacted your ability to attend college.

Unfortunately, neither the college nor ourselves have been given any kind of written notice of this illness by a medical practitioner, nor have you sought to explain the nature and possible outcome of this illness with us or with the college. In view of the severity and recurring nature of this illness, we feel that it is only right and proper that you be given ample opportunity to seek more than just ambulatory aid when ill, but are able to seek out residential care, possibly in a hospital or similar institution.

We further regret that you have not only sought to hide the nature of your illness from ourselves and from the college, but we do realise that some illnesses are, by their very nature a possible source of embarrassment. However you have also kept this illness hidden from the medical profession in its entirety, as evidenced by the conspicuous absence of sick-notes.

As we only have your health and wellbeing as our main consideration, we feel that it has become apparent that the stress of actually turning up for work or attending college is more than you are able to bear in your present weakened condition.

For the above reasons, we feel that it is only right and prudent, that we terminate your further employment and apprenticeship with immediate effect, as we would otherwise live in day-to-day fear that the act of coming to work or attending college might actually kill you.

We regret having to take this decision, but could not live with your demise on our consciences. Should the medical profession at some future date be able to find a cure for your illness, for example, by injecting you with a healthy work ethic and possibly be able to give you a desire to succeed in life, we may be able to review this decision.

We wish you a speedy recovery.

Yours respectfully,

Jackso11

 

[john1989]

Karl’s reply is spot on, as per usual on all things HR related.


The issue here is not so much the blobbing, but the continuous deceit. 19 days is a lot, but in some circumstances you can make allowances if the employee is honest and up front.


I think that even if you overcame the attendance issues, there will always be trust issues.


There are lots of kids out there that would give anything for the opportunity of an apprenticeship. Get rid and employ someone that values the opportunity.

 

[jackso11]

hmmm. I agree, thanks for the response Karl. When you say 't would be sensible to go through the formalities of a disciplinary procedure, do you mean 3 written warnings and dismissal? Or do You mean have a meeting to discuss why he is lying and get his side of the story, then come back to him with a final decision? Sorry but I run a car bodyshop and there are only 4 of us including the apprentice so in these situations I need to read up on what is the correct HR procedure as there is no HR person here.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

To be frank, you're running a business not a charity... he should be more respectable or at least have the balls to tell you the truth about his wearabouts. The lying part, is as said Gross Misconduct... you've given him enough chances by the sound of it TBH.

How long has he been working for you? Why haven't you pulled him for all of the other times... I know you've had a discussion but it should be more than a discussion TBH.

We had an apprentice ring in a few times "on sick", got to the point where he was ringing in from Manchester claiming to be in Burnley at his Grans house - he went on compassionate leave for two weeks for her death... was quite amusing TBH asking him why Burnley's phone boxes had an 0161 number and was traced to the bottom of his street.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

hmmm. I agree, thanks for the response Karl. When you say 't would be sensible to go through the formalities of a disciplinary procedure, do you mean 3 written warnings and dismissal?

No, definitely not.

Or do You mean have a meeting to discuss why he is lying and get his side of the story, then come back to him with a final decision?

This is the appropriate response, to get his side of the story. It's not so much finding out why he is lying (although you'll want to know that too), but getting him to comment on the allegation that he hasn't attended college - and it can only be an allegation at this point, albeit with strong evidence to imply that it's true.

Once you have a reasonable belief that he's lied, you can decide whether to dismiss - which may well be summary dismissal, no warnings, straight to dismissal.


Subject to your contract terms, I would also be inclined to suspend without pay while the disciplinary procedure is followed, and consider giving notice of overpayments for absences when he clearly hasn't reported as being sick; this might reduce the amount of holiday pay he is due on termination.

Sorry but I run a car bodyshop and there are only 4 of us including the apprentice so in these situations I need to read up on what is the correct HR procedure as there is no HR person here.

There are a few members on here that can offer a HR service - be your HR person when you need it. For 4 staff, you should be able to get reasonably cheap quotes for a retainer service.



Karl Limpert

 

[jackso11]

Thanks again Karl.

He has been here for just over a year. The really stupid thing is that my holiday policy is my employees can have as much holiday as they want as long as I have 3 weeks notice and as long as having the holiday doesn't impact the business negatively or any other employee. I have told him that if he needs time off to book it ahead so we can plan around it....and then he keeps doing this.

Do I need to have anyone else present for this kind of procedure? Or can I just have a meeting with him, talk it through, suspend him without pay and then make a decision, call him back in and tell him my decision. Sounds simple when I put it like that.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Nice one Byre, Your skills and knowledge are fantastic to us ordinary people

 

[jackso11]

My contracts have this under suspension:

"Suspension

In the event of serious misconduct an employee may be suspended on full basic pay while an investigation is carried out. Such suspension is a neutral act, which DOES NOT imply guilt or blame and will be for as short a period as possible."

Does this mean I cannot suspend without pay, or as we are dealing with gross misconduct can I deviate from what is written?

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

My contracts have this under suspension:

"Suspension

In the event of serious misconduct an employee may be suspended on full basic pay while an investigation is carried out. Such suspension is a neutral act, which DOES NOT imply guilt or blame and will be for as short a period as possible."

Does this mean I cannot suspend without pay, or as we are dealing with gross misconduct can I deviate from what is written?

He has been here for just over a year. The really stupid thing is that my holiday policy is my employees can have as much holiday as they want as long as I have 3 weeks notice and as long as having the holiday doesn't impact the business negatively or any other employee. I have told him that if he needs time off to book it ahead so we can plan around it....and then he keeps doing this.

Well, you do mention that you're a lenient employer, but I'm far from convinced this policy - something I believe Richard Branson does in a small part of his business - would fit all businesses. Do you pay them for all leave, or just the 28 days?

He has been here for just over a year.

In most instances, this would give you the option of simply dismissing (with a week's notice), or going through the disciplinary (which could take a week) and dismiss without notice. It's only the fact he's an apprentice that complicates, makes it wise to go through the formalities.

Do I need to have anyone else present for this kind of procedure? Or can I just have a meeting with him, talk it through, suspend him without pay and then make a decision, call him back in and tell him my decision. Sounds simple when I put it like that.

You can suspend immediately - you could phone him now, and follow-up with a letter.

For the disciplinary, you will need to warn him you're investigating potential gross misconduct that may result in summary dismissal, and invite him to a meeting to discuss the allegations; he has a legal right to bring a companion to this meeting.

and then make a decision, call him back in and tell him my decision. Sounds simple when I put it like that.

It can be that simple, but in practice it's better to give some careful thought to it, so leaving it a few hours after the hearing to carefully consider what was said, and what your response should be, is often a better practice - at least for those with little experience in this area.

My contracts have this under suspension:

It doesn't help, but looking at isolated extracts of contracts rarely does. I would be minded, based on what's been posted, to say you cannot suspend without pay, but sight of the full contract & consideration to any previous actions in this area would help.


Karl Limpert

 

[jackso11]

I pay them for all leave, but I have good employees apart from this apprentice problem. The other 2 (there are 4 of us in total, 2 long term employees, the apprentice and me) have around 19-22 days leave in a year. I introduced the 'as much leave as you want policy' and nothing changed, they still take the same amount of holiday. The apprentice has only had 2 weeks off over the year, the rest has been unplanned illness, which is what makes it even more stupid as he only needs to ask for holiday. The others have never had a day off sick, ever.

My full Disiplinary Procedure....its not long.

I am away for a week next week so I was thinking of suspension for a week while I decide what to do, whether to dismiss. Or at least send him home tomorrow and think about it until the end of friday. He is a good kid, but now trust is gone.

"APPENDIX 2 - DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURE

1. Whilst the Company does not intend to impose unreasonable rules of conduct on its employees, certain standards of behaviour are necessary to maintain good industrial order and discipline in the interest of all employees.


2. We prefer that discipline be voluntary and self imposed and in the great majority of cases this is how it works. However, from time to time, it may be necessary to take action towards individuals whose behaviour or performance is unacceptable.


3. Minor faults will be dealt with informally. However, in cases where informal discussion does not lead to improvement or where the matter is more serious, eg. unjustified absences, poor time-keeping, sub-standard performance, the following procedure will be used. At all stages, the employee will be given the chance to state his/her case, accompanied if requested by a trade union official or a fellow employee of his/her choice during a disciplinary interview. It should be noted, however, that an employee's behaviour is not looked at in isolation but each incident of misconduct is regarded cumulatively with any previous occurrences.


4. Stage 1


The employee will be given a formal VERBAL WARNINGby the management or immediate superior. He/she will be advised of the reason for the warning and that this warning is the first stage of the disciplinary procedure. A note of the verbal warning may be recorded but nullified after six months, subject to satisfactory conduct and performance.


Stage 2

If conduct or work performance does not improve within the currency of a prior warning, or if the offence is regarded as more serious, a FIRST WRITTEN WARNING may be given. This will give details of the complaint and the likely consequences if the terms of the warning are not complied with. This warning will be recorded but again nullified after twelve months, subject to satisfactory conduct and performance.


Stage 3

Failure to improve in response to the procedure so far, a repeat of misconduct for which a warning or warnings have previously been issued, or a first instance of serious misconduct, will result in a FINAL WRITTEN WARNING being issued. This will give details of the complaint and notification that dismissal will probably result if the terms of the warning are not complied with. This warning will be recorded but again nullified after twelve months, subject to satisfactory conduct and performance.


Stage 4

Failure to meet the requirements set out in the final written warning will normally lead to DISMISSAL with appropriate notice. A decision of this kind will only be made after the fullest possible investigation. Dismissal can be authorised only by a director of the Company. The employee will be informed of the reasons for dismissal and the date on which employment will terminate.


5. Gross Misconduct


Offences under this heading are so serious that an employee who commits them will normally be summarily dismissed. In such cases, the Company reserves the right to dismiss without notice of termination or payment in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct are:


· Any breakage of the law, such as theft and unauthorised possession of Company property, deliberate falsification of records or any other form of dishonesty.


· Wilfully causing harm or injury to another employee.


· Performing an action that is liable to cause injury to other people or damage the Company's property.


· Wilful refusal to obey a reasonable instruction.


· Incapacity through an excess of alcohol or drugs.


The above is intended as a guide and is not an exhaustive list.


6. Suspension


In the event of serious misconduct an employee may be suspended on full basic pay while an investigation is carried out. Such suspension is a neutral act, which DOES NOT imply guilt or blame and will be for as short a period as possible.


7. Appeals


An employee may appeal against a disciplinary decision, including dismissal, to Jack*** within one calendar week of the decision. Appeals should be in writing. At the appeal hearing, the employee will again be given the chance to state his/her case and will have the right to be accompanied by a trade union official or a fellow employee of his/her choice. The Company’s decision will be final.


8. Employees with less than one year’s service


The Company reserves the right not to apply this disciplinary procedure to any employee who has less than one year’s continuous employment with the Company."

 

[Easy Loans Company]

· Wilful refusal to obey a reasonable instruction.

This seems pretty relevant under the gross misconduct section!

 

[jackso11]

Yes I agree, gross misconduct seems pretty easy to prove at this point. I just spoke to his college again and apparently he did turn up today, late so missed the register, but he told me via text he was in all day and he actually left at 12. I asked by text in case I ever needed evidence so I have his reply in writing.
Its whether or not I need to pay him while I suspend him and decide if I want to dismiss. The annoying thing is it has taken a year to get him to the point he is now and I don't really want to have to start from scratch again, but again maybe this is also me being to soft. If I did dismiss then 12 months down the line I may have a new apprentice with 11 months experience who is even better than this guy.

 

[john1989]

It took a year because he's only putting in a fraction of effort.

Getting a replacement who puts the effort, turns up regularly and attends college shouldn't take as long to train.

 

[The Byre]

Look, above joking aside, the kid doesn't want the job. Just as when you interview, the person(s) who genuinely want the position and have been working towards such a job, stand out a mile, when someone wants out, that too stands out a mile. He is probably doing this to appease his parents and not out of some deep love of a chosen career.

Regardless of what noises he may make when called to account, the reality is that if he wanted to complete the apprenticeship, he would go to college and come to work.

Good apprenticeships for youngsters are hard to find nowadays, but this kid does not want this one. You are doing him no favours by dragging things out with informal, followed by more formal procedures.

 

[myfairworld]

Have you spoken to the college? Is the college 'the provider' i.e. is your apprentice signed up with them to do his apprenticeship?

 

[Mr A P Davies]

When it comes to motor vehicles, I tend to think the enthusiastic ones that will make the grade will be begging you to borrow your kit at night and on the weekends, not doing disappearing acts.
Sack him. Maybe he'll go and do a few months stacking shelves in a supermarket, take off abroad for a while, and come back with a different attitude.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Yes I agree, gross misconduct seems pretty easy to prove at this point. I just spoke to his college again and apparently he did turn up today, late so missed the register, but he told me via text he was in all day and he actually left at 12. I asked by text in case I ever needed evidence so I have his reply in writing.

That doesn't make it pretty easy to prove, and why you need to go through the formalities with an open mind. Say, he always attends college - including the "fictional" day last week - but simply often arrives too late for the registration. Then it's really not gross misconduct at all.

Its whether or not I need to pay him while I suspend him and decide if I want to dismiss.

I'd say you do have to pay if you suspend, based on your policies - which could benefit from some attention regardless of this point.



Karl Limpert

 

[Newchodge]

OK then. Forget everything that has gone before.

Ask yourself the simple question: Do you want to keep this person as an employee despite their unreliability and dishonesty. If the answer really is yes, because you want to keep them, not because you are afraid that the next one may be worse? Then first, you want your head examined. Having examined your head, and if you are really sure you want to keep him, then get him in.

Explain, calmly, all you have against him - the failure to attend, the lies about college, everything else. Then explain to him exactly why you want to keep him. Presumably it would be because he has huge potential. Explain that to him and ask if he is interested. if not he goes. If he wants to try to achieve what you think he can, then give him an absolute ultimatum - toe the line or walk.

I am only recommending this course of action because you seem to want to keep someone on who the rest of us would have booted out weeks ago.

 

[fattony]

We had a very similar experience, fraudulent hours on timesheet as he was booking 8 hours at college when his attendance showed he hadn't been there.

Rightly or wrongly I kicked him out for gross misconduct, he didn't try to deny it, I then had his mum on the phone stating she'll make sure he goes to college, trust was gone and decision was final

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I am only recommending this course of action because you seem to want to keep someone on who the rest of us would have booted out weeks ago.

@Newchodge's post is spot on, and the above extract particularly important: most people would have given this person the boot a long time ago.

It's nice to be a lenient boss, and clearly it works most of the time for you, but there will always be a few that use this to their advantage, and they need to be dealt with, at least so you can continue to be reasonable to the fair majority.

Whether gross misconduct is established is another thing, but sick leave is also an issue you should address further, as all decent bosses would do, because part of looking at that issue is helping to assist the staff manage the demands of work with their medical challenges.


Karl Limpert

 

[BristolBiz]

As an aside, you are not doing him any favours by keeping him on, it'll only re-enforce his view that he is "clever". He's at a learning age - getting rid will at least make him think twice about his behaviour in the future.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Other than the obvious - he's a bit of a wheel nut that's rolled away... another thing for you to be looking at is the amount of sick he's had and IF it is possibly due to chemicals that you're using... I'm assuming you have all of your COSHH sheet's up to date and RIDDOR in place - just in case he tries to blame you and your company for it all...

Again, going back to our previous apprentice he tried to blame the companies use of cleaning chemicals and that he was allergic to most of the chemicals we use... Obviously he was actually allergic to "WORK"

 

[jackso11]

Since I talked to him about his large number of sick days he hasn't had a day off work, the issue is he is skipping college, lying about it and thinking I will not find out about it. I think it is easy to say get rid of him and most people probably would, but I am looking at the bigger picture of time invested in him so far and overall performance, also taking into account he is a young kid and this is his first ever real job. I think he thinks telling a lie and skipping work is just like calling in school sick and doesn't really effect anyone. When I talked to him about his large number of absences from work I outlines the monetary value it is costing me and the extra work it is causing everyone else when he misses days and that stopped him having days off sick, however the college days and the lying are a huge issue.

I think you are right @Newchodge
I have taken all above advise on board and am about to call him in for a discussion where I will give him the opportunity to come clean about his whereabouts on wednesdays, then will present him with all the evidence I have against him, explain how this is a huge breech of trust and I should be dismissing him and then give him one last chance with any hint of him doing it again leading to instant dismissal.

 

[john1989]

If that is your intention, make sure you give him a final written warning.

 

[jackso11]

Yes I am going to give him a final written warning. Are they usually given in meetings or posted to his home address?

 

[john1989]

I would hand a copy to him, and post a copy out address to Mr Smith or whatever.

His parents may not know about his attendance issues and see your letter and give him an almighty bollocking!

 

[jackso11]

I am pretty sure they don't know about it. They are both very nice people and both go to work early and come home later than he should finish college. They probably don't even know about him skipping work days in the past. Also, the reason I think he does it is his girlfriend works weekends and is home in the week so he is skipping work to spend time with her.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

A decision you’re entirely free to reach, jackso11, as & when you care, but (I suspect a view that would be shared among others) I think you’re still acting too hastily, and are being too complacent too soon.


You don’t yet have an explanation for the absences from college, but have already decided not to dismiss.


Without knowing what has (or hasn’t) happened with college, you don’t yet know what has been done with your investment – which is more than just time. If you whip a dead horse for a few months (a year in this case), you don’t expect it will suddenly become alive again upon realising it’s dead, and therefore don’t continue whipping it; you don’t throw good time/effort/money/investment after bad.


There’s a clear difference between a “lenient” employer, and an indecisive or complacent employer, but too often I have to advise & deal with those that want to be lenient, but in practice are indecisive & complacent, avoid the tough decisions that sometimes need to be taken. They end up investing a lot more in time & money – including my fees paid more than once for the same actions, because advice is not followed up on – only to reach the conclusion others would have reached earlier, and typically was advised earlier.


Obviously I’m sure all contributors to this thread will hope you know your apprentice best, and hope you’re making the right decision for the right reasons. Experience tells me you’re odds against though, particularly so when you’re willing to reach any conclusions – initially a view to dismiss, now a decision to issue a final warning – without knowing all the facts.


You mentioned the extra work his absences previously caused everyone else, but as a lenient boss, you’re not helping the other two staff by allowing this one to continue – wasn’t he only in college half a day yesterday, when you mentioned you could do with some help if he was free in the afternoon?


BristolBiz summed it up perfectly: you’re not doing him [nor you, or your other employers] any favours by keeping him on (if the facts support an alternative action, once they are established). It’s not the same as being in school, and he should at least know that. I certainly knew at 14 that I could (and did) get away with not attending school most days, but at 15 I was at work at 4am every morning without fail – I knew I would be sacked if I wasn’t, I was no longer in school, and had responsibilities to actually attend work, so skiving was no longer an option.



Get the facts clear on what is actually happening at college, and then speak to him, and then decide whether it’s worth giving him one last chance. It may well be, but don’t be over lenient just because he’s young, or you’ve already invested in him, when there are plenty of others that would appreciate the chance a lot more than this adult.



Karl Limpert

 

[14Steve14]

It may be worth having a word with his parents, or try to have one of his parents at a meeting between the two of you. They may not know what is happening, and your decision may affect them with the loss of tax credits and the like if he is not in education or training. A kick up the arse from them may work wonders.

 

[HazelC]

Speak to the 'supplier' of the apprentice. We have an apprentice and had some issues at the beginning. When we spoke to the company that 'supplied him' they dealt with it immediately for us.

 

[tony84]

I have only read the first post so have no idea about everything else but why would you want this person working for you? Lies and laziness - cracking mix that.

I would get rid, pay him what you need to and move on to someone who really wants the position and would appreciate it.