I think this is the most simple argument (and true argument) there is when it comes to DIY websites.
Unless you knew how to do it, you would not build a house. You would not change the brake pads on your car. You would not rewire your house. If you chose to do take the mentality "oh how hard can it be" with lack of research and skill, all of the aforementioned points would cause damage to you, property, other people etc. It would ultimately cost you money, and ruin your reputation as well. Web design is not a different scenario.
The ultimate motto is "you get what you pay for". If you spend money, you will be given something matching the quality befitting of that money. If you don't spend a lot, you will get something where anyone could tell "oh yeah they haven't spent too much money on this".
It is also true to say there are a lot of cowboy's out there, which makes it harder for professionals such as myself and the other web designers/developers here to land work. But saying that, you wouldn't buy a car without test driving it or checking it out. If you don't research a company you want to build a website for you, then its your own fault if it goes wrong.
Moonfruit is being banded about a lot here. It's ok for personal sites. If you value the business then you must throw money at it. You don't get something for nothing!
Ultimately, the problem with these free website builders (even the ones you pay for to build a site for yourself) is that your site will look amateurish. Put it this way. If you went on to an eCommerce site, and it looked amateurish and badly designed, would you buy something off it? No. And do you know why? You won't trust it. If you go on to eBay or Amazon, they are sleeker designed sites, professionally designed sites. You will go there, and you will part with your cash. Also, with these sites your using templates. Whats to say your competitor wont use the same (or similar) template? If they do, this will cause confusion to visitors of both sites.
Maybe 15 years ago people could get away with this DIY attitude to web design. It was all new then, and no one knew what to expect. People are more internet savvy now, and it's important you get the professional help needed to make your presence online a success.
Unless you knew how to do it, you would not build a house. You would not change the brake pads on your car. You would not rewire your house. If you chose to do take the mentality "oh how hard can it be" with lack of research and skill, all of the aforementioned points would cause damage to you, property, other people etc. It would ultimately cost you money, and ruin your reputation as well. Web design is not a different scenario.
The ultimate motto is "you get what you pay for". If you spend money, you will be given something matching the quality befitting of that money. If you don't spend a lot, you will get something where anyone could tell "oh yeah they haven't spent too much money on this".
It is also true to say there are a lot of cowboy's out there, which makes it harder for professionals such as myself and the other web designers/developers here to land work. But saying that, you wouldn't buy a car without test driving it or checking it out. If you don't research a company you want to build a website for you, then its your own fault if it goes wrong.
Moonfruit is being banded about a lot here. It's ok for personal sites. If you value the business then you must throw money at it. You don't get something for nothing!
Ultimately, the problem with these free website builders (even the ones you pay for to build a site for yourself) is that your site will look amateurish. Put it this way. If you went on to an eCommerce site, and it looked amateurish and badly designed, would you buy something off it? No. And do you know why? You won't trust it. If you go on to eBay or Amazon, they are sleeker designed sites, professionally designed sites. You will go there, and you will part with your cash. Also, with these sites your using templates. Whats to say your competitor wont use the same (or similar) template? If they do, this will cause confusion to visitors of both sites.
Maybe 15 years ago people could get away with this DIY attitude to web design. It was all new then, and no one knew what to expect. People are more internet savvy now, and it's important you get the professional help needed to make your presence online a success.
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chris147
- Original Poster
- #47
i take it your both web designers and need to make a living and do not like competition from moonfruit or other website builders i think that is why your objecting so strongly .
i never said i was a web designer i just said i think moonfruit is a good cheap and easy way to get a website done.
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It is not a case of objecting so strongly. It is more showing facts why Moonfruit isn't good. There are plenty of non flash sitebuilders which will do a better job
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Places like moonfruit give me more work, not more competition. Once someone goes on there and does it themselves, they see other sites surpassing theirs. They then realise they can't do it themselves and then seek help.
I'm only objecting this strongly because a web site is more or less the shop window to a business. If you don't make it attractive or good enough people won't come to the business.
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bdw
- Original Poster
- #52
Chris, I still don't think you are getting this. Moonfruit is NOT good. It is suitable only for personal or hobbyists websites. You think it is good because you managed to produce what you think is a reasonable business website from it. I haven't seen it but even without seeing it I am quite sure that it fails in many respects.
Also, I can assure that I am not in competition with Moonfruit. My only experience of it was when a client who had a site with them came to me to build him a proper website. I did have another look at Moonfruit as a result of this thread and I found their SEO guide. Having been produced in early 2007 it is four and a half years out of date and it shows. I found this little gem.
Moonfruit has been around for a long time but it has only a tiny share of the market because people who are serious about their websites soon realise that free websites do not work for business. Moonfruit claim they have over four million websites but they fail to say how many of them are active (my guess would be the vast majority).
Incidentally Google has also been offering free websites for about four or five years in conjunction with BT and even this has not taken off. If Google cannot hack it with free websites what chance has Moonfruit?
Tell you what, if you want to PM me the address of your website I will do a free review on it (I will keep the address secret).
.
Also, I can assure that I am not in competition with Moonfruit. My only experience of it was when a client who had a site with them came to me to build him a proper website. I did have another look at Moonfruit as a result of this thread and I found their SEO guide. Having been produced in early 2007 it is four and a half years out of date and it shows. I found this little gem.
The keywords Meta has been ignored by Google for several years. They had already stopped recognising it when this was written. This is just one example of how much out of date this is.
Moonfruit has been around for a long time but it has only a tiny share of the market because people who are serious about their websites soon realise that free websites do not work for business. Moonfruit claim they have over four million websites but they fail to say how many of them are active (my guess would be the vast majority).
Incidentally Google has also been offering free websites for about four or five years in conjunction with BT and even this has not taken off. If Google cannot hack it with free websites what chance has Moonfruit?
Tell you what, if you want to PM me the address of your website I will do a free review on it (I will keep the address secret).
.
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Quality issues aside, what I've always found strange is that people will spend 50 hours building their own website because that makes it "free"
I watched Grand Designs last night, and the guy on there wanted to build the house himself without help. He did some work to it, ran out of money and time, then had to get professionals in.
Need I say more about DIY websites?
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Nala
- Original Poster
- #55
It could be that some people feel the need to do it themselves because of bad experiences with the professionals - it happens in all industries, and it may not be just to save money (although that could be a major factor - not wanting to get the living daylights ripped out of them and not to be held over a barrel with being tied in).
Just one perspective of course
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lex
- Original Poster
- #56
I think that on occasion some people do manage to create some almost ok websites from free site builders, although the majority of the time they are poor at best.
However I would say, that there are a lot of self proclaimed "professional" web designers that aren't any good either (several on this forum).
However, I will say my standards of web design consider great or good web design to be like that of those appearing on http://www.divinecss.com/ You may argue that some of those are the most functional and easy to navigate, which I agree is 100% necessary in great design, however a lot are and I wouldn't personally settle for anything less than a great design and great functionality when it comes to web design.
But I'm just picky
You also have to realise it doesn't come cheap, expect to pay a few thousand for cream of the crop web design.
However I would say, that there are a lot of self proclaimed "professional" web designers that aren't any good either (several on this forum).
However, I will say my standards of web design consider great or good web design to be like that of those appearing on http://www.divinecss.com/ You may argue that some of those are the most functional and easy to navigate, which I agree is 100% necessary in great design, however a lot are and I wouldn't personally settle for anything less than a great design and great functionality when it comes to web design.
But I'm just picky
You also have to realise it doesn't come cheap, expect to pay a few thousand for cream of the crop web design.
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benhuntltd
- Original Poster
- #57
I agree entirely. Actually, it's not really about the tool you use - and the visual design isn't all that critical (as long as it's not awful).
What's most important is the quality of the thought and expertise that goes into the planning and execution of the site.
Only two things really matter: Traffic and Conversion... How many people visit your site, and what proportion of those visitors take some action you want them to take.
These days, the physical publishing of a website isn't very difficult. With Wordpress, you can create a great-looking site in a matter of hours. (In fact, in the near future, I think most "web designers" will either be theme builders, or theme consumers.)
The quality thinking should go into:
* Positioning your business
* Keyword research: Selecting search terms that get good searches and for which you can get to the top of the search results
* Good copywriting: Crafting compelling messages that instantly communicate "what's in it for me" to visitors
* Promotion: Getting the message out, so that people link to your site, which is essential for getting up to the top of the rankings.
What's most important is the quality of the thought and expertise that goes into the planning and execution of the site.
Only two things really matter: Traffic and Conversion... How many people visit your site, and what proportion of those visitors take some action you want them to take.
These days, the physical publishing of a website isn't very difficult. With Wordpress, you can create a great-looking site in a matter of hours. (In fact, in the near future, I think most "web designers" will either be theme builders, or theme consumers.)
The quality thinking should go into:
* Positioning your business
* Keyword research: Selecting search terms that get good searches and for which you can get to the top of the search results
* Good copywriting: Crafting compelling messages that instantly communicate "what's in it for me" to visitors
* Promotion: Getting the message out, so that people link to your site, which is essential for getting up to the top of the rankings.
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Hi,
I would recommend to anyone who is not professional to avoid 1and1! The support is the worst you could imagine... they will always say find it in FAQ - even when you call them!!!
I can't imagine to use them without proper IT team!
...if you are looking for dedicated server for good price and you have your team to deal with problems, than you could maybe use them.
All the best and good luck with your choice!
I would recommend to anyone who is not professional to avoid 1and1! The support is the worst you could imagine... they will always say find it in FAQ - even when you call them!!!
I can't imagine to use them without proper IT team!
...if you are looking for dedicated server for good price and you have your team to deal with problems, than you could maybe use them.
All the best and good luck with your choice!
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WebTrust
- Original Poster
- #60
1and1 are fantastic would recommend time and time ago.
Fastest hosting I've ever had, no down time in 6 years.
People say there support sucks, but I don't know because in 6 years I've never had a single issue that's needed support.
Avoid 123-reg at all COSTS! i needed support every five minuites.
Also my friend uses Heart Internet and they seem to be rubbish, he's always contacting their support.
Fastest hosting I've ever had, no down time in 6 years.
People say there support sucks, but I don't know because in 6 years I've never had a single issue that's needed support.
Avoid 123-reg at all COSTS! i needed support every five minuites.
Also my friend uses Heart Internet and they seem to be rubbish, he's always contacting their support.
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[pedant] they're [/pedant]
I would not class them as "stupid", everyone has individual skills. I would struggle to fit a bathroom or change a clutch, so I would use someone who does know how to do it.
Stupidity does not come into it in any way (normally!), merely inexperience and I would never classify any of my paying client's in that bracket just because they need assistance in using a service we offer - in fact on the contrary, I would see it as an opportunity to see how we could make the service easier to use in future.
Additionally, the technical problems may be 1&1's fault if the the servers have technical issues, but that's merely speculation.
Steve
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You wouldn't normally "ring" Debian, CentOS, or Microsoft either
You would ring the local fitter (the host)
Steve
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MASSEY
- Original Poster
- #66
I disagree. Websites are a lot different.
Infact in my opinion a website owner using one of the free resources available will probably 75% of the time end up with a better result.
The amount of designer that just focus on the design and feck all else is surreal.
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I totally agree with Posilan!
Users are not stupid. Our client have bought the dedicated hosting with 1and1 - he paid owner £200/month and the server was down 3times in last half year only!
When he contacted us, we found out that the full access to the server was off! We were not even able to access with SSH. After being on the phone for nearly an hour all they told us to re-image the server! Which would mean losting the data etc... we had to keep calling them and the server start to work in the end! Our customer never received any apology and they are NOT stupid!
I think it's very poor service for such a price! If we would treat our users or customers in this way, we wouldn't have any! The only problem and also luck of 1and1 is that they have millions of customers and they just can't cope or care!
Believe just try to call them and I'm sure 99% the response would be find it in FAQ!
So, if you are looking for dedicated server and you don't know how to deal with it I still recommend to find better company!
I'm not sure about other 1and1 products!
But I'm sure I wouldn't call my customers stupid!
Users are not stupid. Our client have bought the dedicated hosting with 1and1 - he paid owner £200/month and the server was down 3times in last half year only!
When he contacted us, we found out that the full access to the server was off! We were not even able to access with SSH. After being on the phone for nearly an hour all they told us to re-image the server! Which would mean losting the data etc... we had to keep calling them and the server start to work in the end! Our customer never received any apology and they are NOT stupid!
I think it's very poor service for such a price! If we would treat our users or customers in this way, we wouldn't have any! The only problem and also luck of 1and1 is that they have millions of customers and they just can't cope or care!
Believe just try to call them and I'm sure 99% the response would be find it in FAQ!
So, if you are looking for dedicated server and you don't know how to deal with it I still recommend to find better company!
I'm not sure about other 1and1 products!
But I'm sure I wouldn't call my customers stupid!
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bdw
- Original Poster
- #69
It has nothing to do with people being stupid and everything to do with 1&1 pursuing a deliberate policy of bad support. These complaints have been going on for years and they have done absolutely nothing about it.
Clearly you did not take the time to see what these people are complaining about because none all of the complaints that I can see are 1&1s incompetence and total disregard for their customers.
.
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Oh yeah I know. I worked with one. Hated her designs. She came from a print background, and hadn't a clue really about what she was doing. She'd stick a menu at the top and a footer at the bottom, fair enough. But she'd do some crazy design and it took absolute ages to code it to work properly. She wouldn't change "her style" and she wouldn't learn about the limitations of HTML and CSS.
But websites really aren't much different from houses etc. If you don't know what your doing the result won't be good.
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Had several dealings for clients with 1&1 over the years. My experience has been their technical and customer support are both pretty awful.
There are cheaper hosts with better support and more user friendly admin areas.
Have seen the TV advertisments for their new product but I've not yet used it or seen a sample website.
What I would say is these one size fits all website creator programmes are rarely suitable for everyone and, in my experience, the previous ones I have seen have all been full of bloated code and quite unfriendly to search engines.
There are cheaper hosts with better support and more user friendly admin areas.
Have seen the TV advertisments for their new product but I've not yet used it or seen a sample website.
What I would say is these one size fits all website creator programmes are rarely suitable for everyone and, in my experience, the previous ones I have seen have all been full of bloated code and quite unfriendly to search engines.
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bdw
- Original Poster
- #77
I have a problem with my 1&1 account right now. I have tried calling their support number about six times over the last thirty minutes. It is constantly engaged. My only option was to use their online form, which is not much use for an urgent problem.
This is an urgent. I am having problems FTP'ing to my account and it is not handling my online enquiry forms. I will report what happens here but I fear the worst as usual.
.
This is an urgent. I am having problems FTP'ing to my account and it is not handling my online enquiry forms. I will report what happens here but I fear the worst as usual.
.
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So much for the world's largest web host:
Sites downed by 1&1 web outage
The 1&1 Facebook page and Twitter feed have more info than their own website.
Sites downed by 1&1 web outage
The 1&1 Facebook page and Twitter feed have more info than their own website.
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