Alibaba verified supplier

Steve Carrigan

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Has anyone traded with Hangzhou Horeca Technology Co., Ltd ?

They are a verified supplier on Alibaba, but just wanted to know if I can trust this company?

I am interested in purchasing an Electric Scooter. They are telling me it will be delivered DDP (Delivered Duty Paid) but they also say they can’t provide me with any customs declaration paperwork. They say they are using a shipping agent, who will also be shipping other goods in 1 container, so the shipping agent will handle all customs clearance. They say I will not get a Vat or import duty bill, when it arrives in the UK.

Can I trust this information? Has anyone bought from this company before ?

Thanks
 

japancool

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    I want to test one to begin with. Then if my tests work out, I intend to start a business selling them.

    Keep in mind that if you buy from Alibaba, and something goes wrong, you effectively have no comeback.

    I have no idea about this particular company. If you truly are going to start a business selling them, then I suggest you go and visit them in China, to see for yourself if they're even a manufacturer.

    You can always arrange your own shipping. I hope these scooters are properly certified!
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    Keep in mind that if you buy from Alibaba, and something goes wrong, you effectively have no comeback.

    I have no idea about this particular company. If you truly are going to start a business selling them, then I suggest you go and visit them in China, to see for yourself if they're even a manufacturer.

    You can always arrange your own shipping. I hope these scooters are properly certified!
    So are you saying the Alibaba verified supplier means nothing ?
    I was also intending to purchase using a credit card, which gives some level of protection as if, for example it did turn up, my credit card company would do a charge back.
    Yes these scooters have EEC and COC certification.
     
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    fisicx

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    So are you saying the Alibaba verified supplier means nothing ?
    Correct. It has zero value or protection.
    Yes these scooters have EEC and COC certification.
    Are you sure? I'd put money on those certificates being fake.

    Who carried out the certification? Have you verified the certificate with a UK testing authority?
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    Correct. It has zero value or protection.

    Are you sure? I'd put money on those certificates being fake.

    Who carried out the certification? Have you verified the certificate with a UK testing authority?
    Oh.. I see
    I have spent a lot of time researching this, or I thought I had.
    These scooters are already being sold in the USA, Europe. New Zealand. Australia etc. but nobody is retailing them in the uk.

    The company I mentioned is apparently the manufacturer of these scooters.

    I was just trying to establish if the company is trustworthy?

    No, I have not approached a testing authority.

    The company in question are not just on Alibaba, they have their own web site etc and they have images of the certification.

    I will ask for copies of the certificates.
     
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    fisicx

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    Certification may well be different in other countries.

    Remember all those hover boards that got imported that then caught fire. They all came with certificates.

    On the other hand, they may all be legit and safe to import. I’d buy one and pay to get it tested.
     
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    MOIC

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    Welcome to UKBF.

    The process you should follow:

    1. Buy 1 pc, ensure it's to UK specification and is certified UKCA (not just CE), ideally get it tested in UK, as China testing companies cut corners..

    2. Ask the factory for a BOM list that covers the electronic parts and especially the battery.

    3. When you're ready to process the first 'test order", use a 3rd party inspection company to ensure the same parts are included on your order.

    If you're planning a long term relationship with this company, arrange a visit, or get a 3rd party to evaluate and visit the factory, speak to management and take videos of the product lines, QC control and any other areas you want to see. They can also view the original certificates.

    It's important with these types of products, that you ensure you have spare parts sent to you, and this should be agreed before ordering and stated in the contract (usually the Pro forma).

    Good luck.
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    Certification may well be different in other countries.

    Remember all those hover boards that got imported that then caught fire. They all came with certificates.

    On the other hand, they may all be legit and safe to import. I’d buy one and pay to get it tested.
    Yes, I remember.
    I will defo be asking for the certificates
    Welcome to UKBF.

    The process you should follow:

    1. Buy 1 pc, ensure it's to UK specification and is certified UKCA (not just CE), ideally get it tested in UK, as China testing companies cut corners..

    2. Ask the factory for a BOM list that covers the electronic parts and especially the battery.

    3. When you're ready to process the first 'test order", use a 3rd party inspection company to ensure the same parts are included on your order.

    If you're planning a long term relationship with this company, arrange a visit, or get a 3rd party to evaluate and visit the factory, speak to management and take videos of the product lines, QC control and any other areas you want to see. They can also view the original certificates.

    It's important with these types of products, that you ensure you have spare parts sent to you, and this should be agreed before ordering and stated in the contract (usually the Pro forma).

    Good luck.
    Hi
    Thanks for commenting.

    1) it’s EEC/COC certified

    2) Sorry can I ask what is a DOM?

    3) Where would I find or get in touch with a third party inspection company? I am also guessing you mean get it inspected when the 1st arrives?

    They have already sent me a pro forma invoice which does state the model, battery, motor power, colour and warranty details and shipping terms.
    Is that what you mean?

    Yes, if it all check out after the first piece arrives, then a factory visit would be a good idea before I place a large piece order.
     
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    fisicx

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    Get one tested before you place a bulk order. Otherwise the container could be held at customs and you pay for storage.

    Google will give you any number of testing companies. It’s not going to be cheap. You may also need insurance should there be any issues with the scooters. And of course there is still the law to comply with: they are still illegal to ride on the highways. Which is another reason to get insurance as the importer and seller.
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    Get one tested before you place a bulk order. Otherwise the container could be held at customs and you pay for storage.

    Google will give you any number of testing companies. It’s not going to be cheap. You may also need insurance should there be any issues with the scooters. And of course there is still the law to comply with: they are still illegal to ride on the highways. Which is another reason to get insurance as the importer and seller.
    Thanks
     
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    MOIC

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    1) it’s EEC/COC certified
    EEC - so should have a CE marking on the scooter. You'll need UKCA certification. Some companies in China are still not authorised to test to UKCA standards, it has to be an approved testing lab.

    COC - Ceritficate of Compliance - doesn't mean a great deal.


    They have already sent me a pro forma invoice which does state the model, battery, motor power, colour and warranty details and shipping terms.
    Is that what you mean?
    Is this the model that's on the certificates and COC, including photo? If you're looking to rebrand the product with your logo, it will have to be recertified.

    Pro forma - you'll need MANY more details to be included, in order to fully cover you.

    Check your product and personal liability insurance to see what information the insurance company will require, before you order.
     
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    Robin.Xu

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    Has anyone traded with Hangzhou Horeca Technology Co., Ltd ?

    They are a verified supplier on Alibaba, but just wanted to know if I can trust this company?

    I am interested in purchasing an Electric Scooter. They are telling me it will be delivered DDP (Delivered Duty Paid) but they also say they can’t provide me with any customs declaration paperwork. They say they are using a shipping agent, who will also be shipping other goods in 1 container, so the shipping agent will handle all customs clearance. They say I will not get a Vat or import duty bill, when it arrives in the UK.

    Can I trust this information? Has anyone bought from this company before ?

    Thanks
    I just read an answer about wholesale forum on Quora, and for first time knowing this forum. Your question is the first one I read😄

    Reply:
    - I heard about this kind of process, the agent part should be true, if the saler send to you in this way out of saving delivery costs. Normally(not always, depends on what Hangzhou company asks and how much the agent get paid), the agent will deal with clearance fees.

    - according to the official register infoirmation, Hangzhou Horeca Technology Co., Ltd is more like a trade company instead of a factory who makes scooters. The number of employees is about 10-20, office on the 26th floor of a commercial buildings.

    So like many other answers mentioned, you should be care of the risks, but not of fraude.
    The Process compliance may result in some inconvinience and other costs like duty bill or VAT.
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    EEC - so should have a CE marking on the scooter. You'll need UKCA certification. Some companies in China are still not authorised to test to UKCA standards, it has to be an approved testing lab.

    COC - Ceritficate of Compliance - doesn't mean a great deal.



    Is this the model that's on the certificates and COC, including photo? If you're looking to rebrand the product with your logo, it will have to be recertified.

    Pro forma - you'll need MANY more details to be included, in order to fully cover you.

    Check your product and personal liability insurance to see what information the insurance company will require, before you order.
    Thank you
     
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    japancool

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    - according to the official register infoirmation, Hangzhou Horeca Technology Co., Ltd is more like a trade company instead of a factory who makes scooters. The number of employees is about 10-20, office on the 26th floor of a commercial buildings.

    That's really important information, @Steve Carrigan. It means you'd be dealing with a middleman, instead of with the manufacturer directly.
     
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    fisicx

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    That's really important information, @Steve Carrigan. It means you'd be dealing with a middleman, instead of with the manufacturer directly.
    It also means what you order may not be the same as what you get. They may well source the cheapest product meaning you end up with a container full of junk.

    Use a proper sourcing agent like @MOIC. It might cost a bit more but you will get a far better service.
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    That's really important information, @Steve Carrigan. It means you'd be dealing with a middleman, instead of with the manufacturer directly.
    Thank you.
    I have had a video call with the contact and she has shown me around what she is calling the Factory. I there may be some truth in what you are saying in terms of they are not the manufacturers. There were hundreds of scooters in the place, but not all finished if that makes sense, looks like they buy in the parts and then assemble them, or change them a little/customise them for specific customers.
    In particular, the one I am looking at, they definitely don’t manufacture, as I have now found the manufacturer of the Brand I was originally looking at. I also have a contact for that manufacturer, Horeca told me they would buy the parts from the manufacturer and assemble it.
    Which I found a bit strange, as why would they not just buy it assembled ?
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    It also means what you order may not be the same as what you get. They may well source the cheapest product meaning you end up with a container full of junk.

    Use a proper sourcing agent like @MOIC. It might cost a bit more but you will get a far better service.
    Thank you and I understand this, thanks for the recommendation of MOIC
     
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    fisicx

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    Horeca told me they would buy the parts from the manufacturer and assemble it.
    Which I found a bit strange, as why would they not just buy it assembled ?
    It’s so they can swap out good quality parts for cheaper junk. Batteries in particular. Some of the rubbish they will use would fail about all safety tests. As many have discovered when products catch fire.
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    Yes, that is a risk.
    It looks like I am unable to buy direct from the manufacturer as there is already a distribution agreement in place with another UK company.
    as long as Horeca are a trustworthy company, there should not be an issue.
    Hence my original question.
     
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    fisicx

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    as long as Horeca are a trustworthy company, there should not be an issue.
    Assume they aren’t. Which is why you need a trusted sourcing agent.

    They may also be assembling because of the pre-existing UK distribution deal. You will almost certainly going to be getting unbranded products.

    Everything about this feels wrong.
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    Yes, I have concerns myself. But I am also in touch with the manufacturer. I contacted a distributor in New Zealand who is selling the approved and certified Brand. He put me onto the manufacturer, who has now been in touch with me. So I have asked the manufacturer what their relationship is with Horeca.
    So we will see how this pans out.
    It may not be something that is viable, but I can’t make that decision yet, until the actual manufacturer comes back to me.
    I may have missed the boat on this brand as the current agreement is in place with the UK company till Feb 2025.

    Thanks for all the advise, from everyone, it has been amazing 👍🏻
     
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    japancool

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    Yes, that is a risk.
    It looks like I am unable to buy direct from the manufacturer as there is already a distribution agreement in place with another UK company.
    as long as Horeca are a trustworthy company, there should not be an issue.
    Hence my original question.

    Can you buy from the UK distributor?
     
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    japancool

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    I’m not sure, I tried contacting them a few weeks ago via email… did not get a response.
    The manufacturer said they may be able to do something.
    I was only contacted by the manufacturer today, so this has put a different spin on things and is early days.
    If you can, it will be hugely advantageous for you - they will have all the required certifications and testing in place, and will be able to deal with warranties and repairs. Also, if you're dealing with a registered brand, many payment providers will want to see that you are dealing with them through official channels, rather than via grey imports. And it's THEIR responsibility to ensure compliance with standards, not yours.
     
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    BusterBloodvessel

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    Bit late to the party and looks like you have potentially come to the end of the road (for now) anyway, but thought I'd comment for anyone else reading this thread in future. Welcome to the world of dealing with the Far East. To pick up on your points about the factory;

    - There is the out and liars who will say they are a factory and they are just a sourcing house. A common giveaway for this is when they simply have far too many product lines and/or product lines that completely clash. "Yes, we are a factory, we produce everything ourselves. We make biscuit tins, plastic buckets, tablet computers and wooden picket fencing". Yeah, because they all go hand in hand!

    - Then, touching on your experience with seeing various products being assembled, there are the factories that are simply what I call assembly houses. They buy in components, snap/rivet/glue them together and package them. There's a discussion to be had on when an assembly house becomes a factory of course, not everything can be produced in house but for me a factory would be producing key components in house and would have development and testing facilities.
    There's not necessarily anything wrong with these assembly houses but you have to then remember that you are at the mercy of
    (A) Them deciding to change suppliers of components due to cost/availability/other reasons ending up with a difference specification
    (B) Them being supplied (unknowingly to them) with components that are a different spec, changed design, different material etc due to their supplier making a change. This could be due to cost or it could be because that supplier has a different assembly house that has requested a change to the tooling, so they make it for them and everybody else gets the same change whether they like it or not. I have experienced both!

    Whether the assembly house is trustworthy enough not to make changes without your consent - well that's impossible to tell until you have a relationship with them, really. And whether they can pick up on changes from their suppliers, that all depends on how good their goods in and QMS procedures are. And generally the better their QMS, the more cost they have, the more you pay. There's a reason you can go on Alibaba and see what appears to be two identical products from two identical factories with one at $1 and another at $2. Price isn't necessarily everything.

    And finally, just because you have been given a video tour of a factory or even an in-person tour, that STILL doesn't mean that you are dealing directly with the factory themselves! Factories will often let agents posing as a factory take people round the plant, and they will often even let them put signs up with the so-called factory name on! I.e. if "Xiamen Plastic Manufacturing Co. Ltd" is the actual genuine factory but there is a middle man calling himself a factory under the name of "ABC Manufacturing Xiamen" then they may let him put signs up round the building saying "ABC Manufacturing Xiamen". I have personally been taken to the same factory 3 times, by 3 different people who each claimed that it was definitely their own building, their own factory, and they had their own signage up! Again in terms of giveaways, for this one look for signage that doesn't appear permanent, e.g. it's just a plastic sign hooked onto some chain that could easily be swapped out in seconds. Especially if there is a big main factory sign in Chinese but then the English factory name is on a separate small board on chains, or on a plaque just screwed to the wall.

    It's a minefield and without getting out there and/or working with people on the ground out there locally it's very difficult to ever know who you're truly dealing with. There's a lot to be said for working through a 3rd party, MOIC is very well respected on here, my company could possibly help also, we have our China sourcing and QC team, although we are a little different to MOIC. Of course it also depends on what product you're going for - if you're importing 1000 plastic widgets that can't really have much go wrong, and if it does you lose $1000, give it a go through Alibaba. Something like this I would be much more careful about!
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    Thank you for the comments, you give a really good insight to things.
    I have my doubts about Horeca as it does look like they are a trading company. They may also be as you put it an assembly house.
    My suspicion was when the contact told me that they could supply the Branded, because they would buy the part from the Brand manufacturer. Why dot just buy the scooter assembled from the Factory ?
    But now I am also in touch with the manufacturer, I need to wait to see what they say about their relationship is with Horeca and also the UK distributor.

    I really appreciate everyone’s input… thanks very much
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    Not ALL Far Eastern countries are like that. :)

    I've never had that issue in Japan. The biggest issue there is getting in touch with the manufacturer in the first place!
    I would agree with this, I have bought some RC component parts from Japan many years ago when I had an RC shop. Japan is a totally different ball game and I never had any issues dealing with Japan.
     
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    MOIC

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    Bit late to the party and looks like you have potentially come to the end of the road (for now) anyway, but thought I'd comment for anyone else reading this thread in future. Welcome to the world of dealing with the Far East. To pick up on your points about the factory;

    - There is the out and liars who will say they are a factory and they are just a sourcing house. A common giveaway for this is when they simply have far too many product lines and/or product lines that completely clash. "Yes, we are a factory, we produce everything ourselves. We make biscuit tins, plastic buckets, tablet computers and wooden picket fencing". Yeah, because they all go hand in hand!

    - Then, touching on your experience with seeing various products being assembled, there are the factories that are simply what I call assembly houses. They buy in components, snap/rivet/glue them together and package them. There's a discussion to be had on when an assembly house becomes a factory of course, not everything can be produced in house but for me a factory would be producing key components in house and would have development and testing facilities.
    There's not necessarily anything wrong with these assembly houses but you have to then remember that you are at the mercy of
    (A) Them deciding to change suppliers of components due to cost/availability/other reasons ending up with a difference specification
    (B) Them being supplied (unknowingly to them) with components that are a different spec, changed design, different material etc due to their supplier making a change. This could be due to cost or it could be because that supplier has a different assembly house that has requested a change to the tooling, so they make it for them and everybody else gets the same change whether they like it or not. I have experienced both!

    Whether the assembly house is trustworthy enough not to make changes without your consent - well that's impossible to tell until you have a relationship with them, really. And whether they can pick up on changes from their suppliers, that all depends on how good their goods in and QMS procedures are. And generally the better their QMS, the more cost they have, the more you pay. There's a reason you can go on Alibaba and see what appears to be two identical products from two identical factories with one at $1 and another at $2. Price isn't necessarily everything.

    And finally, just because you have been given a video tour of a factory or even an in-person tour, that STILL doesn't mean that you are dealing directly with the factory themselves! Factories will often let agents posing as a factory take people round the plant, and they will often even let them put signs up with the so-called factory name on! I.e. if "Xiamen Plastic Manufacturing Co. Ltd" is the actual genuine factory but there is a middle man calling himself a factory under the name of "ABC Manufacturing Xiamen" then they may let him put signs up round the building saying "ABC Manufacturing Xiamen". I have personally been taken to the same factory 3 times, by 3 different people who each claimed that it was definitely their own building, their own factory, and they had their own signage up! Again in terms of giveaways, for this one look for signage that doesn't appear permanent, e.g. it's just a plastic sign hooked onto some chain that could easily be swapped out in seconds. Especially if there is a big main factory sign in Chinese but then the English factory name is on a separate small board on chains, or on a plaque just screwed to the wall.

    It's a minefield and without getting out there and/or working with people on the ground out there locally it's very difficult to ever know who you're truly dealing with. There's a lot to be said for working through a 3rd party, MOIC is very well respected on here, my company could possibly help also, we have our China sourcing and QC team, although we are a little different to MOIC. Of course it also depends on what product you're going for - if you're importing 1000 plastic widgets that can't really have much go wrong, and if it does you lose $1000, give it a go through Alibaba. Something like this I would be much more careful about!
    What he said!

    I would add . . . . . .China and Japan are at polar ends of the honesty spectrum.
     
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    These scooters are already being sold in the USA, Europe. New Zealand. Australia etc. but nobody is retailing them in the uk.
    t looks like I am unable to buy direct from the manufacturer as there is already a distribution agreement in place with another UK company.
    That would be enough for me to walk away from this. BTW, I have developed a lot of products and been involved in the importation of well over $1bn of consumer electronics/appliances from China.

    @MOIC Is some one I would also listen to.
     
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    fisicx

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    Had a long talk yesterday with a friend (whilst at a car show) who wanted to import electric scooters a few years back along with other consumer goods.

    He said to only deal with the actual manufacturers. Get them tested in the UK. Get them checked by an agent in china before loading in the container.

    Everything else you buy will be assembled with the cheapest components, especially the batteries which will be dangerous. It won’t be branded, they will just print their own labels. And the certificates will be fake.

    He gave up in the end because you just couldn’t trust anyone.

    The scooter he had tested failed on multiple counts. He was warned that if he tried to import the shipment would be stopped at the port of entry.
     
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    Steve Carrigan

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    Had a long talk yesterday with a friend (whilst at a car show) who wanted to import electric scooters a few years back along with other consumer goods.

    He said to only deal with the actual manufacturers. Get them tested in the UK. Get them checked by an agent in china before loading in the container.

    Everything else you buy will be assembled with the cheapest components, especially the batteries which will be dangerous. It won’t be branded, they will just print their own labels. And the certificates will be fake.

    He gave up in the end because you just couldn’t trust anyone.

    The scooter he had tested failed on multiple counts. He was warned that if he tried to import the shipment would be stopped at the port of entry.
    Oh… right, I see.
    Thanks for the heads up
     
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    BESTONE

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    Has anyone traded with Hangzhou Horeca Technology Co., Ltd ?

    They are a verified supplier on Alibaba, but just wanted to know if I can trust this company?

    I am interested in purchasing an Electric Scooter. They are telling me it will be delivered DDP (Delivered Duty Paid) but they also say they can’t provide me with any customs declaration paperwork. They say they are using a shipping agent, who will also be shipping other goods in 1 container, so the shipping agent will handle all customs clearance. They say I will not get a Vat or import duty bill, when it arrives in the UK.

    Can I trust this information? Has anyone bought from this company before ?

    Thanks
    I work in Logistics field for years and very experience to tell. If you are buying 1 container of goods, you should be the only SHIPPER on your bill of lading of FCL , unless it's under LCL which only partial parts of goods, and there's other owner in this cargo.
     
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    MOIC

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    @Steve Carrigan If you're serious about this project, your best option (in my opinion) is to go to China, visit 3 - 6 factories you've shortlisted after thorough research, see the factories with your own eyes, ask all the questions you need to ask, speak to the owners and management, check the components, certificates and quality control. Then test what you're buying.

    Anything else, you could be taking risks.
     
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