About to give up

[m.o.v]

Hi All, I have been trying to test a few ideas for weeks now and this that I am about to touch upon has kept me up until 4am tonight, Please help me understand.

I would like to 'harvest leads' online using 'data extraction software'??? in order to compile a database for my service. Once i have this database i intend on doing a 'mail shot' advertising my service containing a link to my site so people can decide if my service is for them.

I am extremely green, i accept this completely before the usual insults come flying in.

I would be very grateful if someone could give me further suggestion on the simplest/most effective way of finding the leads that i require online that include email addresses for me to follow through with.

Please note that i would be looking to gather thousands at a time in order to justify this as i believe although useful, my service is definitely not for everyone.

yours tiredly,

M.O.V

 

[drounding]

So you want to spam email everyone?

 

[MASSEY]

It's illegal stay up to 4am with the next idea

 

[maxine]

You can email but just on an individual basis and only as a one off message for that recipient.

Anything else that you are describing is illegal and I struggle to wonder why you would want to do this and what success you possibly think you would get from such methods.

Why don't you start by saying what your busines is and what you want to achieve and see if others have got ideas for you?

 

[fisicx]

Please note that i would be looking to gather thousands at a time in order to justify this as i believe although useful, my service is definitely not for everyone.

In which case it's a complete waste of time. You should be targeting those who would find your service useful.

 

[Bruceflea]

so basically you are wanting to 'scrape' the internet for every available email address??

IMO, as fisicx has already said, it'll be a waste of time. chances are the majority of emails you gather will be non-generic & generic local emails anaway, and i think it's a quick way for you to get blacklisted if nothing else.

 

[SeanKelly]

Using Spiderware aka Email Spider is a very dangerous thing to do and I would personally recommend you never use it. What it does is systematically scan websites and collect all of the email addresses most of which are generic, a lot of companies like Spamhaus and Spam Cop place dummy email addresses on the internet to catch you emailing them illegally then blacklist your ISP and if your using your own domain to broadcast the email can lead to your website being taken down.

It sounds like you would use Outlook to broadcast also which in itself is a bad idea as you now legally need to provide the option to opt out or unsubscribe when contacting people with marketing info.

My tip is source a verified opt in list with proof of in status and broadcast through a reputable platform.

Sean.

 

[m.o.v]

I did say I was bit green. I should have known it was like receiving spam for some people though, my bad. I don't understand why it could be illegal? surely its just like posting a flyer through someones door? i was told about someone that did this to find customers for an weird/unique alternative to a pretty common product and he does quite well for himself, however if he can't 'spam' people then he would never be able to contact enough people. whats the deal? is it actually illegal to send an email without permission? if so then how can i get permission?

I'm so tired now, 4 hours sleep. bad times. work to go to back later. Coffee

 

[drounding]

It is illegal to email private individuals without their consent beforehand unless you have previously done business with them and the email is related to that business transaction. Search the internet for double opt in. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt_in_e-mail

Unfortunately though spam emailing does presumably work otherwise no one would do it. And of course what is one persons spam is another's interest (or something like that).

 

[SeanKelly]

Its a bit of a grey area, all I know is you don't want Spamhaus or Spamcop getting involved, there is a bit of legal mumbo jumbo below but even that seems to contradict itself.

-------------------------

The Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003 states:

Use of electronic mail for direct marketing purposes

22. - (1) This regulation applies to the transmission of unsolicited communications by means of electronic mail to individual subscribers.

(2) Except in the circumstances referred to in paragraph (3), a person shall neither transmit, nor instigate the transmission of, unsolicited communications for the purposes of direct marketing by means of electronic mail unless the recipient of the electronic mail has previously notified the sender that he consents for the time being to such communications being sent by, or at the instigation of, the sender.

(3) A person may send or instigate the sending of electronic mail for the purposes of direct marketing where -

(a) that person has obtained the contact details of the recipient of that electronic mail in the course of the sale or negotiations for the sale of a product or service to that recipient;

(b) the direct marketing is in respect of that person's similar products and services only; and

(c) the recipient has been given a simple means of refusing (free of charge except for the costs of the transmission of the refusal) the use of his contact details for the purposes of such direct marketing, at the time that the details were initially collected, and, where he did not initially refuse the use of the details, at the time of each subsequent communication.

 

[maxh]

Naughty naughty.

Why not 1) stop being lazy and do some keyword research then 2) place targeted adds via googles adwords and perhaps the facebook?

 

[Bruceflea]

Naughty naughty.

Why not 1) stop being lazy and do some keyword research then 2) place targeted adds via googles adwords and perhaps the facebook?

or (3) purchase data from a reputable supplier

 

[MarcusMiller]

I believe personal letters and emails can work, but the key here is 'personal'. If you spend some time researching companies that may be interested in your offering then send a personal email illustrating how what you do could benefit them and their business then you will get results.

It is not a fast and easy method, but, what worth doing is?

 

[gois333]

S o if I go looking for prospective clients on the internet and email them each individually, telling them how I found their website(i.e. google search) and marketing my product in the email, that is not illegal even if the email itself is just a generic email with maybe some name changes in each ? I would hate to be considered an illegal spammer!

 

[drounding]

Even if the email includes the recipient's name it's still spam.
You should rather use different avenues of marketing or purchase contact details from a reputable source. What about cold calling, almost as bad but not illegal.

 

[gois333]

Wow I didnt realise that. The problem with cold calling is people always make some excuse, especially when your call starts with "can I speak to the person who deals with..." To be honest my response rate on emails has been pretty poor so its not something I do often but I didnt realise it was illegal.

I'm assuming a "reputable supplier" of contacts is not getting crawling the webn finding those contacts but instead paying for them when those suckers forget to click the invisible button which says "check to not receive emails from relevant 3rd parties". Really, its pretty much the same isnt it!

 

[drounding]

.;..I'm assuming a "reputable supplier" of contacts is not getting crawling the webn finding those contacts but instead paying for them when those suckers forget to click the invisible button which says "check to not receive emails from relevant 3rd parties". Really, its pretty much the same isnt it!

You're probably correct, but it's not illegal.

 

[Bruceflea]

cold calling is hard work, i do it myself for a portion of my day but it's definitely a numbers game. i've always found the more calls i make the more leads i get.

'reputable suppliers' tend to be either list owners or list brokers. they will have collected the emails in various ways from companies house, to trade shows/ events etc.

email data & marketing is a massive grey area tbh, i work in the industry and do not claim to have all the answers as there are so many contradictory reports. however obviously there are guidelines which we stay within.

 

[Seb de Lemos]

I would like to 'harvest leads' online using 'data extraction software'??? in order to compile a database for my service.

... i intend on doing a 'mail shot' advertising my service...

...i would be looking to gather thousands at a time ...

Don't even think about it. If it's not illegal, it's massively immoral. Your email provider will block you, you'll get reported to spamhaus for spamming, and no one with a scrap of common sense will buy from you.

If you think that bulk email marketing is the way to go for you (it's a lazy, often fruitless, exercise), then buy legitimate opt-in email addresses.

 

[m.o.v]

Hi, really appriciate the advice given...it does however leave me feeling a bit mythed. Why is it illegal? Someone can knock on your door and sell stuff which seems more real world dangerous yet not email, what does this law protect? Also hypothetically, I'd like to gather details of goal keepers from football websites- it would be good if there where thousands because the product won't appeal to all of them however i don't intend on emailing every address i can obtain from anywhere football or not. Is this any better or less spammie? This seems weird, imagine today was day one in this world and the anti spam thing was the gospel, it would mean that we all had to go through the first to market with anything.

Btw, today has been horrible. About to have late lunch now, hungry, tired and to top things of have about 60 pence to my name. Can't even get a coffee. Still image how difficult things might be for the person that follows me into market if they have to keep getting leads from end of a chain each time.

 

[Bruceflea]

Hi, really appriciate the advice given...it does however leave me feeling a bit mythed. Why is it illegal? Someone can knock on your door and sell stuff which seems more real world dangerous yet not email, what does this law protect? Also hypothetically, I'd like to gather details of goal keepers from football websites- it would be good if there where thousands because the product won't appeal to all of them however i don't intend on emailing every address i can obtain from anywhere football or not. Is this any better or less spammie? This seems weird, imagine today was day one in this world and the anti spam thing was the gospel, it would mean that we all had to go through the first to market with anything.

Btw, today has been horrible. About to have late lunch now, hungry, tired and to top things of have about 60 pence to my name. Can't even get a coffee. Still image how difficult things might be for the person that follows me into market if they have to keep getting leads from end of a chain each time.

TBH M.O.V i do not know the legality of it, as mentioned it is a grey area but the point is that you will be getting addresses that could be years out of data. if you 'scrape' the internet it'll pick up all emails and i am assuming you are looking consumer details (as you stated you wanted goalkeeper details), the people could have registered years ago on sites and not updated for years.

take the forum here for example, there's people who regularly comment on threads that are months/ years out of date in the hope of getting business from it. chances?? not very likely. look at the internet as a whole and take a guess how far back the email addresses could potentially go.

i personally think it has got nightmare written all over it. you say you have about 60p to your name and honestly i do not think this will help you financially.

there are many companies out there who can supply all kinds of consumer files. someone may be able to supply this for you, i do not think i can get my hands on anything that will help you. there are loads of wierd and wonderful consumer data files about e.g. we were able to supply a client with details of golfing enthusiasts in England down to how many golfing holidays they had went on abroad.

specialised lists exists, you just need to find them.

 

[steviemac]

lets put it like this, quite a few email spammers have been jailed for several years in the US for sending tons of spam emails. Can you feel a cold bead of sweat on your neck now? Dont do it!

 

[maxine]

Consumer data in the uk is governed by our data protection laws which are much stricter and enforced a lot more. They are regulated by the ICO.

Sounds like you need to get some proper advice... why not have a chat with your business link advisor and see what they come up with.

 

[m.o.v]

I'm really grateful for this advice, thank you everyone. I will have to rethink things. I should add that it would be very simple to make this mistake out of ignorance, which might not be an excuse however of all the wrong things that someone could do spamming doesn't seem that bad. Thank you again everyone for making me aware of this, will steer clear. Do you know that there are loads of companies offering software to facilitate?

Bruceflea, your examples are excellent and have given a fuller reasoning about the purpose of this task.

Moving forward, E-mail marketing is alright so long as I find each prospect by searching manually and not blindly hoarding with software. Then be sure that the product is relevant therefore/and personal?? Do you guys think that doing this with a mix of posts in relevant forums would be a better start until i can afford to buy some details (which is funny cos, I don't think that even if I have to pay someone for the privilege the receiver will feel any differently unless it is endorsed by the people from whom i have to buy the details from?)?

 

[joomlads07]

It is possible but all will be spam as you are trying to use a software I suppose.

 

[InternetMarketingPlatinum]

I did say I was bit green. I should have known it was like receiving spam for some people though, my bad. I don't understand why it could be illegal? surely its just like posting a flyer through someones door? i was told about someone that did this to find customers for an weird/unique alternative to a pretty common product and he does quite well for himself, however if he can't 'spam' people then he would never be able to contact enough people. whats the deal? is it actually illegal to send an email without permission? if so then how can i get permission?

I'm so tired now, 4 hours sleep. bad times. work to go to back later. Coffee

It's nothing like posting a flyer through a door, email is much easier/cheaper to send and that is why the CAN SPAM ACT exists. Think about it, if every business in the UK sent you an email today you would get thousands.

 

[InternetMarketingPlatinum]

Now what you could do, if you want to be green, is make an introductory phone call and ask for an email address to send some information instead of following up with a mailshot. This way the prospect has an idea of who's sending it.

Another tip is to be careful with what you write in your email subject. I had an (unsolicated) email arrive with the subject "Email Enquiry" which is extremely deceptive and designed to improve email opening rate. Very annoying. I would never do business with this company based upon this email alone.

 

[eventdomain]

Sending bulk email is NOT illegal, as long as you:

1. Dont spam each individual excessively

2. You offer a way to Unsubscribe both in the email and website

3. You must use a business email eg: [email protected]

4. Must remove emails on request

5. Not hold data without consent eg: dont buy from data companies, bcos they don't legally own the data. The data holder is NOT the same as the data OWNER..... its the data owners' permission thats needed.

These data mining companies shouldn't be selling this stuff anyway, I bet the data owners dont even know their being held on database - what thousands of them know where their data is? - I don't think so.

I just sent warning letters to 2 data companies - the first didn't know what the Data protection act was, and the other complied and removed me.

 

[emailexpert]

There are loopholes and spamming people is not always illegal in many instances it is. It is however likely to contravene allsorts of rules that will land you in hot water regardless.

This will potentially include

- your isp
- your email provider
- your hosting company
- the privacy commissioner
- the advertising standards authority
- the general wrath of the internet

No more 4am ideas please ... at least not like that one ;-)

 

[herodigital]

Hi All, I have been trying to test a few ideas for weeks now and this that I am about to touch upon has kept me up until 4am tonight, Please help me understand.

I would like to 'harvest leads' online using 'data extraction software'??? in order to compile a database for my service. Once i have this database i intend on doing a 'mail shot' advertising my service containing a link to my site so people can decide if my service is for them.

I am extremely green, i accept this completely before the usual insults come flying in.

I would be very grateful if someone could give me further suggestion on the simplest/most effective way of finding the leads that i require online that include email addresses for me to follow through with.

Please note that i would be looking to gather thousands at a time in order to justify this as i believe although useful, my service is definitely not for everyone.

yours tiredly,

M.O.V

can't believe how many times i've seen people look for help on this very idea

it's a ridiculous idea and you should be ashamed to consider pursuing it

look, people just don't appreciate getting spam messages. i don't care how amazing you believe your business to be, if they didn't opt in to learn more, what the hell gives you the right to take their email address from a website and try to sell to them?

this is not cost effective, it's actually illegal and if you seriously want to blast thousands of unsuspecting users i would suggest doing it from a cave somewhere in a forest in russia where nobody is likely to find you and strangle you.

 

[herodigital]

having now read this thread in its entirety i feel the sense of anxiety on the thread opener - we've all been there when money has been seriously tight (i literally could not afford bus fair at one point - THAT was a bad time).

but at times like this it is imperitive you make the RIGHT decisions and as i think you've gathered, mass-email spam is not the answer. i would suggest marketing your product/service the old fashioned way by writing about it and creating online publicity that way.