FireFox Adblock Threatens downfall of Internet Commerce

[Phil_Rees]

Really? how can it differentiate between a signature link and a link the body of the post. Look at the code, theres nothing there to block.

Im not sure how the tech works - AVG have some solution with some of there products, and i have seen a few more whilst browsing the internet - didnt interest me though so i didnt make a record.

 

[edmondscommerce]

surely the answer here is not to block the users but circumvent the ad blocker.

not actually that much of a problem, but if you then use your circumvention to whack a huge great flashing rotating banner then expect it to look incongruous and unappealing to ad block users so they are unlikely to click on the ad anyway

 

[Phil_Rees]

In truth, I've never really been too bothered by ads. If there are too many and it distracts me from my purpose then I click away. Perhaps if I had some sort of adblocker the site would keep me interested, which kind of goes against the argument that adblocker is killing the web!

Im the same, adverts dont bother me, i understand the need for them to ensure free services and choice.

hell in the uk without them we would still be stuck with only BBC1 and BBC2.

I also agree with people about sites OVERLOADED with adverts etc, its offputting, but when a product like ADblock comes along which is spreading faster than many well known virus softwares im become concerned.

Adverts keep the internet free
Adverts keep commerce alive (Hard to sell if people dont know your there)
Adverts provide a VITAL public service.

 

[Phil_Rees]

surely the answer here is not to block the users but circumvent the ad blocker.

not actually that much of a problem, but if you then use your circumvention to whack a huge great flashing rotating banner then expect it to look incongruous and unappealing to ad block users so they are unlikely to click on the ad anyway

So far the only solution i have found to do this is

www.block-adblock-plus.com/help.html

Adds a small amount of code that detects an adblocker and asks the user to turn it off.

Ive not installed it yet as i would like to see some further development of it first to ensure people dont get tricked into turn on ads on malicous sites. It does however point out that there is an increasing following concering the adblock software and in fact wether the adblock service is in fact illegal.

 

[adventurelife]

Adverts provide a VITAL public service.

The NHS does , the police do, the army does but adverts providing a vital public service

 

[Phil_Rees]

The NHS does , the police do, the army does but adverts providing a vital public service

And when the NHS, the Police and the Army have urgent public announcements to make - who do they turn to

Advertising

 

[fisicx]

...its about keeping the internet free, protecting freedom of speech and permitting business and organisations (especially small organisations and business on a tight budget) the ability to promote themselves.

The Internet has never been free, everything has to be paid for. I choose to pay my host to view publically available (not free) information. If the information is not public then I accept I have to pay for access. If you are selling a product then I will pay you. If you offer a service then I will pay you.

You are providing a method for people to blog about their communites. You hope to fund this using adverts. Your visitors however choose to ignore those adverts, even if they weren't using adblocker they would still choose to ignore the adverts. Ranting about adblocker isn't going to suddenly make people click on the adverts. It don't work that way.

 

[edmondscommerce]

Actually the way it works is really simple.

it basically tricks adblock into regarding the entire page content as and ad, simply by placing it all in a div called ads.

Adblock will see that div and hide it, so no page content displayed at all.

 

[adventurelife]

And when the NHS, the Police and the Army have urgent public announcements to make - who do they turn to

Advertising

Interesting view point, so now the essential services are not going to be able to communicate with us because of some software that stops advertising

 

[Phil_Rees]

The Internet has never been free, everything has to be paid for. I choose to pay my host to view publically available (not free) information. If the information is not public then I accept I have to pay for access. If you are selling a product then I will pay you. If you offer a service then I will pay you.

You are providing a method for people to blog about their communites. You hope to fund this using adverts. Your visitors however choose to ignore those adverts, even if they weren't using adblocker they would still choose to ignore the adverts. Ranting about adblocker isn't going to suddenly make people click on the adverts. It don't work that way.

Firstly, this is not about our site its about adblocker in general and the effect it is going to have on internet commerce as a whole and the affiliate adverts on our site are fillers that are replaced by information of business's in the local area - very very relevant content to users of the region.

No body can be forced to click on an advert (and i object to programmes that encourage people to do so for reward), however it is my RIGHT as a service provider to cover the costs of providing a free service. ADblock removes that right and as a result removes revenue that we require to pay staff, pay hosting, pay development teams, for security software etc etc

When you use any service in the world there is an exchange - either of money, time or services. Thats how trade works. On sites/redio/tv that promote other business's in exchange for access to free content the trade exchange is the display of an advert that a user may or may not click on.

Remove that and you are using the site "FREE AS IN FREE BEER" and not paying your exchange. Why should we as service providers just give it all away?

Your right, the internet has never been free as in "Free Beer", just Free as in free access.

How has this free access be granted - by sponsors and advertising.

Remove that and it is only a matter of time before you will not be able to gain access to anything that is not government or big company funded.

Alternative - charge everyone for accessing your site.

 

[Phil_Rees]

Interesting view point, so now the essential services are not going to be able to communicate with us because of some software that stops advertising

Not if they use advertising programmes no - they would be blocked.

The Public services would have to rely on press release, paid for programmed in banners etc

They will not have access to public service announcements from google etc.

 

[GeorgeM]

This thread has been great fun and I've enjoyed reading it.

Phil - It's worth remembering there is a word in English - SOME (and available in other languages too I suspect).

Some people will use the internet and some will not
Some gentlemen prefer blondes and some brunettes
Some people will use Ad-Block and some will not
Some....

Do you get my train of thought ?

 

[Phil_Rees]

Actually the way it works is really simple.

it basically tricks adblock into regarding the entire page content as and ad, simply by placing it all in a div called ads.

Adblock will see that div and hide it, so no page content displayed at all.

Simple solution to a complex problem.

From what i can gather as well, you can insert the code in specfic locations, so that for example areas you want everyone to see you dont insert it. Areas that you want to restrict to adblock users you insert it.

The advantage i see with the block adblock software is that it gives adblock users a choice wether to turn of the adblocker and get access to the site content or not. Therefore when they turn off adblocker, they paying there dues to view.

 

[Phil_Rees]

This thread has been great fun and I've enjoyed reading it.

Phil - It's worth remembering there is a word in English - SOME (and available in other languages too I suspect).

Some people will use the internet and some will not
Some gentlemen prefer blondes and some brunettes
Some people will use Ad-Block and some will not
Some....

Do you get my train of thought ?

Totally, but im looking at extremes.

However concerning ADblock - 50 million users already, 100 million users by the end of this year is not to be ignored- already 15% of internet users have adblock or a variation of it installed.

 

[adventurelife]

Not if they use advertising programmes no - they would be blocked.

The Public services would have to rely on press release, paid for programmed in banners etc

They will not have access to public service announcements from google etc.

Phil

In case you have not noticed, anything of real importance happens anywhere in the world it is all over countless media platforms often within seconds.

As I have pointed out there are many many ways for businesses to get more business adds on websites are just one route and becoming less relevant by the day as you have pointed out by the numbers you have produced.

Agree to disagree I am out on this one

 

[Phil_Rees]

Phil

In case you have not noticed, anything of real importance happens anywhere in the world it is all over countless media platforms often within seconds.

As I have pointed out there are many many ways for businesses to get more business adds on websites are just one route and becoming less relevant by the day as you have pointed out by the numbers you have produced.

Agree to disagree I am out on this one

What about general alerts or awareness - local quit smoking programmes for example?

How will those vital resource gain awareness?

Or the young kid who cant get work and decides to star this own business so he is not claiming on the dole - how does he get business?

Or the strugling independant who is being hit hard by the downturn - how is he or she to get business?

Press releases in local newspapers?

Costly adverts?

Good will?

Not exactly major press interest are they?

 

[GeorgeM]

Totally, but im looking at extremes.

However concerning ADblock - 50 million users already, 100 million users by the end of this year is not to be ignored- already 15% of internet users have adblock or a variation of it installed.

Yes but you cannot force people to view any content - either free text or adverts, or use / not use software. It is their choice - whether they use their eyes or some tool such as Ad-blocker - or its future successors.

Didn't Microsoft originally try to make all users of their OS use Internet Explorer rather than another browser. I think that ended is an expensive court case and MS had to backtrack.

 

[Phil_Rees]

Yes but you cannot force people to view any content - either free text or adverts, or use / not use software. It is their choice - whether they use their eyes or some tool such as Ad-blocker - or its future successors.

Didn't Microsoft originally try to make all users of their OS use Internet Explorer rather than another browser. I think that ended is an expensive court case and MS had to backtrack.

The choice comes from the first visit - developers are not forcing people to visit there sites.

Thats the key factor here - the consumer has the choice wether to visit the site in the first place, and if upon visiting wether to visit again.

The same as i have the choice wether to watch BBC or ITV - with ads or without.

What ADblock is doing is by force removing content from a site that a user visits without the site developers consent.

 

[dagr]

...

What ADblock is doing is by force removing content from a site that a user visits without the site developers consent.

To put it brutally, as a customer/visitor/whatever-you-call-it to a commercial site, I don't really give a damn about the site developers' consent.

Also, if I may say you seem to have a very "inside looking outwards" approach to business. Customer first, not "Customer should ...".

 

[edmondscommerce]

Simple solution to a complex problem.

From what i can gather as well, you can insert the code in specfic locations, so that for example areas you want everyone to see you dont insert it. Areas that you want to restrict to adblock users you insert it.

The advantage i see with the block adblock software is that it gives adblock users a choice wether to turn of the adblocker and get access to the site content or not. Therefore when they turn off adblocker, they paying there dues to view.

Yep

you are basically using the adblocker against the user by tricking it into thinking page content is an ad. Its a simplistic but effective solution. As you say you could have some juicy content and hide it, instead displaying a box saying 'only available for non adblocked users'

I'm not totally convinced on how worthwhile this would be, but it might encourage people to whitelist your site in adblock. If you did it thoughtfully I see no problem with this approach.

 

[Phil_Rees]

To put it brutally, as a customer/visitor/whatever-you-call-it to a commercial site, I don't really give a damn about the site developers' consent.

Also, if I may say you seem to have a very "inside looking outwards" approach to business. Customer first, not "Customer should ...".

Presenting a Counter Argument to a Mistaken Client
http://ezinearticles.com/?Presenting-a-Counter-Argument-to-a-Mistaken-Client&id=2693156

The customer is not always right, does not always know what they are looking for or what they want.

Thats why we have customer services and sales people - to guide them.

In addition, customer first does not mean, customer can have for free.

As a service provider, I decide what the customer can have for free, and what they must pay for to ensure the service stays in business.

Wether that payment is a cash exchange or payment in form of display of adverts depends on the revenue and overheads of the service being provided.

 

[Phil_Rees]

Yep

you are basically using the adblocker against the user by tricking it into thinking page content is an ad. Its a simplistic but effective solution. As you say you could have some juicy content and hide it, instead displaying a box saying 'only available for non adblocked users'

I'm not totally convinced on how worthwhile this would be, but it might encourage people to whitelist your site in adblock. If you did it thoughtfully I see no problem with this approach.

As you indicate as long as the service is used with common sense and not used to trick people into revealing for example distateful content i think its a valid option to protect service providers.

If a user whitelists your site, well they would not have had any intention of returning anyway.

 

[numberwang]

Thanks for raising my awareness, I'm off to download it now :redface:

 

[in2play]

.... however it is my RIGHT as a service provider to cover the costs of providing a free service.

I completely agree, so innovate. Don't be a Luddite - just look what happened to them. In fact industrial history is full of businesses who failed to innovate and move with the times - looks like the Internet is shaping up the same way. Sounds like a great opportunity to blaze a new path to me.

Of course, being so concerned about free speech, I presume that you are equally active in challenging the restrictions to free speech (and other freedoms) in numerous countries.

 

[fisicx]

No body can be forced to click on an advert (and i object to programmes that encourage people to do so for reward), however it is my RIGHT as a service provider to cover the costs of providing a free service.

Not true, you have a number of choices as to how you fund your internet venture. You chose to use advertising. I have a number of choices as to how I recieve information, I choose to use the internet. I also have a number of choice as to how I view this information. I choose to block images, pop-ups, flash and scripts. One of the tools I use happens to focus on adverts, another blocks pop-ups, another block cookies, another blocks active scripts and so on.

The internet won't go down the drain if every one blocks adverts, anyone with a product or service to sell will just find another way to attract customers.

You also seem to be missing the point about the use of adblocker. Those who install the application weren't going to click on your adverts in the first place. So it's not lost income, it's income that was never going to exist!

 

I admire your effort Phil, I do believe that adblocker has many advantages aswell as disadvantages. However you mentioned that it currently had 50 million users, and this number is increasing at a phenomenal rate, therefore I don't think any campaign at a micro level will have any effect.

I think the only way adblocker could be banned is if some form
of political organisation stepped in, such as the EU, and this could take years. Maybe it's bettter to focus your efforts on how else to advertise to your target audience?

 

[Phil_Rees]

Of course, being so concerned about free speech, I presume that you are equally active in challenging the restrictions to free speech (and other freedoms) in numerous countries.

If I had the ability I would, as a donater to
Amnesty International

I fully support the removal of restrictions of freedom of speech.

 

[Phil_Rees]

I admire your effort Phil, I do believe that adblocker has many advantages aswell as disadvantages. However you mentioned that it currently had 50 million users, and this number is increasing at a phenomenal rate, therefore I don't think any campaign at a micro level will have any effect.

I think the only way adblocker could be banned is if some form
of political organisation stepped in, such as the EU, and this could take years. Maybe it's bettter to focus your efforts on how else to advertise to your target audience?

Well for TownBuzz as stated before we use a number of methods to get our message out, although a new company you will be hearing a great deal about us.

Regarding having adblocker banned, well maybe that is reaching for the sky but at the very least organisations such as firefox who provide the browser should remove it from there extention listings and organisations that advertise should ban adverts for adblock.

 

[Phil_Rees]

Not true, you have a number of choices as to how you fund your internet venture. You chose to use advertising. I have a number of choices as to how I recieve information, I choose to use the internet. I also have a number of choice as to how I view this information. I choose to block images, pop-ups, flash and scripts. One of the tools I use happens to focus on adverts, another blocks pop-ups, another block cookies, another blocks active scripts and so on.

The internet won't go down the drain if every one blocks adverts, anyone with a product or service to sell will just find another way to attract customers.

You also seem to be missing the point about the use of adblocker. Those who install the application weren't going to click on your adverts in the first place. So it's not lost income, it's income that was never going to exist!

Well lets shut down all the webdesigners who deal with SEO, PPC, CPM etc etc

They are no longer going to be required.

 

[Phil_Rees]

..........

By the way, just checked your site - you do some good work.

 

[DotNetWebs]

...However as our "USER SUBSCRIPTION" is paid for by sponsors and advertising, why should I allow people who have not paid a subscription use the services we provide. How would it be, if i didnt have other methods of generating income before I or other media informational sites are put out of business?...

Phil I have just looked to your Dover site:

http://townbuzz.info/dover/

You appear to be in the same business as us: i.e. a 'Local' information site.

BUT you are taking a different approach to us for generating revenue.

Have a look at Visit Horsham

We do not have a single banner add or any Adsense etc.

It is funded by BUSINESS subscribers not USERS

Maybe this would be a better model for you?

Regards

Dotty

 

[dagr]

Presenting a Counter Argument to a Mistaken Client
http://ezinearticles.com/?Presenting-a-Counter-Argument-to-a-Mistaken-Client&id=2693156

The customer is not always right, does not always know what they are looking for or what they want.

Thats why we have customer services and sales people - to guide them.

In addition, customer first does not mean, customer can have for free.

So, a new potential customer who comes across your site, but has Ad-Block enabled, is already in the wrong? Hmmmm. A strange mindset in which to welcome new customers. We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. For me, the customer is always "right", even when I know he/she is wrong.

A customer being "wrong" is not at all the same thing as a customer who doesn't know exactly what they want or one who requires assistance.

As a service provider, I decide what the customer can have for free, and what they must pay for to ensure the service stays in business.

Wether that payment is a cash exchange or payment in form of display of adverts depends on the revenue and overheads of the service being provided.

Again, this reinforces my earlier comment. Your customers will decide if you stay in business. What you do internally to also make that happen in terms of cost structure, management, etc., is your job, not the customers'.

 

[Phil_Rees]

Phil I have just looked to your Dover site:

http://townbuzz.info/dover/

You appear to be in the same business as us: i.e. a 'Local' information site.

BUT you are taking a different approach to us for generating revenue.

Have a look at Visit Horsham

We do not have a single banner add or any Adsense etc.

It is funded by BUSINESS subscribers not USERS

Maybe this would be a better model for you?

Regards

Dotty

Dotty, firstly great site I like it, however our business model is totally different. We are community social site, combined with community news articles and social networking. In addition organisations that have there head office or primary place of business based in region do not pay to have premium listings on our business directory service but in return take part in a mutal programme that promotes both organisations.

I dont want to go into to much right now as that is a matter for another thread.

The best way to consider TownBuzz is to think of a community led newspaper combined with social networking and free advertising for local area based business.

The one thing we will not become is yet another bestof type website.

 

[in2play]

Well lets shut down all the webdesigners who deal with SEO, PPC, CPM etc etc

Lol. At last! A solution to all those annoying "I can get you to the top of Google" telephone calls. I can go with this one.

Glad you agree freedoms are important and that you are more active than most people.

Could people signing up to this ad blocking be interpreted as them exercising their freedom to ignore certain categories of ads? If 100s of millions of people went out and bought a wristband to signify their support of a cause, that cause would be considered to represent the views of those people - they'd be listened to at the least. If a similar number of people block ads, then surely there's a message there.

Yes, there is the issue with giving one tool (and company) the power to define what is an ad that needs filtering. However, it sounds like there is still a lot of user input and, as usually happens on the internet, a rival service will emerge that offers a different approach. Google and all the search engines already have this kind of power with search results.

 

[Phil_Rees]

Totally, and im not disbuting the fact tha people want to download and use the service or the fact that people have to right to choose wether to view sites with adverts or not.

My dispute is the forceable restriction imposed by ADblocker which will lead to webdevelopers blocking users using the software - as is already happing.

ADblock is a no win situation in the long wrong.

Where adverts are concerned alternatives like industry regulation need to be addressed and investigation into malicous sites rather than BLANKET censorship solutions as offered by adblock.

Like it or not - view it as devil or angel - advertising is neccesary.

 

[in2play]

Then those who block ADblock will either shortly be out of business or restricting their market. People are using it and that should be the starting point.

The next step is as you suggest, alternatives. ADblock hasn't evolved out of context. Clearly, for some people, internet advertising needs to become less intrusive. Someone is going to make a lot of money reaching these people without intruding.

As I live in your own target area (Deal), I'll be very interested in how you promote the website to the community and what you'll be offering that is not already provided elsewhere.

 

[Phil_Rees]

Ill be in touch soon enough regarding townbuzz your going to be very pleased with what we are offering - especially as its not going to cost you a penny.

Right now im off into town to get a haircut, just seen an advert offering money off

And who says adverts are not beneficial.

 

[Phil_Rees]

Then those who block ADblock will either shortly be out of business or restricting their market. People are using it and that should be the starting point.

The next step is as you suggest, alternatives. ADblock hasn't evolved out of context. Clearly, for some people, internet advertising needs to become less intrusive. Someone is going to make a lot of money reaching these people without intruding.

As I live in your own target area (Deal), I'll be very interested in how you promote the website to the community and what you'll be offering that is not already provided elsewhere.

Is this youer site - http://www.in2play.co.uk/

Sentyou this PM

If you want to learn some more about our programme - which wont cost you a penny if your head office is in the region. For example the premium listings in our directory, our buzz voucher programme and more then drop me some contact details and we can have a chat.

The entire concept behind TownBuzz is to support the local business and encourage interaction between the local business and community.

We only charge for the prime adspots banners and affiliate programmes so please dont think there is any hidden agenda to our free services.

 

[DotNetWebs]

Dotty, firstly great site I like it, however our business model is totally different. We are community social site, combined with community news articles and social networking....


...The one thing we will not become is yet another bestof type website.

Thanks for your comments

We are also involved with the local community and are branching into social networking. One of the current lines of development is a Facebook application that allows interaction between the substantial local Facebook community and our subscribing businesses.

For example:

http://apps.facebook.com/horsham/Business.aspx?business=Aurac

We certainly don't want to be considered a 'bestof' type site!

Regards

Dotty

 

[Phil_Rees]

Thanks for your comments

We are also involved with the local community and are branching into social networking. One of the current lines of development is a Facebook application that allows interaction between the substantial local Facebook community and our subscribing businesses.

For example:

http://apps.facebook.com/horsham/Business.aspx?business=Aurac

We certainly don't want to be considered a 'bestof' type site!

Regards

Dotty

Ooops - sorry just realised - to clarify, wasnt indicating that you where another bestof Site

My Bad

Good to see you working with facebook applications - they very powerful