Knowing the mind of God

Touching on your abiogenesis question, I do not believe in one theory over another. I make my decisions based on the available evidence, and so far, there is not enough for me to say which theory is most likely.

The theories are justified through research usually, substantiating their points and reasons. With Religion though, there is nothing. Literally NOTHING, to substantiate the majority of what is written, said, or forced into the minds of others.
 
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cjd

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    Take Mother Theresa and the works of the sisters of charity generally including africa present day.

    That's a great example. Can you please show the balance sheet for the MT Foundation. (And the Vatican, while you're at it.)
     
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    Touching on your abiogenesis question, I do not believe in one theory over another. I make my decisions based on the available evidence, and so far, there is not enough for me to say which theory is most likely.

    The theories are justified through research usually, substantiating their points and reasons. With Religion though, there is nothing. Literally NOTHING, to substantiate the majority of what is written, said, or forced into the minds of others.

    You are lost in a jungle of philosophy.

    Science and logic can only relate propositions already contained.

    For obvious reasons - You can never within science prove anything that lies outside it.

    Furthermore

    Science itself does not go beyond the repeatable and testable,

    so unless you take the illogical leap that anything that EXISTS ergo is repeatable and testable, then neither can you expect logic or science to substantiate all that EXISTS

    So the lack of substantiation proves nothing at all.

    THE BEST you can do. Is point at evidence that indicates that the conclusions that science and logic draws in its present state is wrong.

    And I have, several times on different subjects.
    Such as the questions posed by the shroud.

    And then you have to question too. How much of what exists and is repeatable and testable is modelled by science anyway?

    Read "what is it like to be a bat" and see how your entire world model is distorted if not crafted by your very limited senses.

    What does a bat think a supernova is? You see them A bat does not.

    Science has admitted with superstrings, that even 12 dimensions are being considered to try to make science a badly fitting suit of clothes, fit better on the body of what exists.

    Separate two completely different factors in the lady of ephesus.

    A person who can never have been there describes accurately where a building is , on a remote and tree covered hill wilderness. Describes the building accurately, and its occupants many hundred years before, even where to dig to find things long since covered up.

    What do you make of this.

    Either

    (a) She managed a ridiculous level of coincidence in description of what and where. Even explaining where to look is surprising enough.

    Or

    (b) Her consciousness was actually there...years before in a different place - in which case, is conscience a biochemical process.


    HARD QUESTIONS>

    Evidence that is hard to discount, even harder to explain.
    Shatters most peoples world models if true.

    And there is a huge mass of other evidence
    Proof of nothing, but that is a philosophical problem, not a scientific one.
     
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    cjd

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    What do you make of this.

    Either

    (a) She managed a ridiculous level of coincidence in description of what and where. Even explaining where to look is surprising enough.

    Or

    (b) Her consciousness was actually there...years before in a different place - in which case, is conscience a biochemical process.

    For a guy of such massive intellect, you do seem to find the concept of the false choice rather hard to grasp ;-)
     
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    cjd

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    c) delusion plus confirmation bias

    As always. Poor thinking on your part.

    (a) "delusion" is simply your word used to describe a mechanism for the vision not the apparent coincidence between the observation and fact.
    You describe the wrong thing.

    (b) "confirmation bias" is not implicit, indeed is available for anyone to judge for themselves. Read the prediction. See the evidence. You determine.

    But then since you are too lazy to find either the vision or the physical evidence, you for one will never be in any position to judge - but judge you do on the basis of nothing.


    So I suggest

    (c) Pure unscientific prejudice on your part. You discount the possibility, And as always invent any old cr+p to justify your position.
     
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    cjd

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    (a) "delusion" is simply your word used to describe a mechanism for the vision not the apparent coincidence between the observation and fact.
    You describe the wrong thing.
    You are correct. I was avoiding using the term, but as you push me, your gal was clearly mentally ill.
     
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    cjd

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    Maybe so. Maybe not.

    But she was uncannily accurate describing a place and a time her body can never have been. And the physical evidence she was right pokes two fingers up at those who try to dismiss it as fantasy

    From memory - I did only scan the thing - she had some dreams and hallucinations. Someone wrote some of them down, possibly. Then someone else much later scoured the planet for something with a matching description, possibly. Then, surprise, someone found something like it.

    Far too much wrong with that entire process.

    A simple "Mary was born at 7 Acacia Avenue, Jerusalem" would have done - but no, we have to have all this hocus-pocus, indeterminate rubbish instead. Just like healers never grow back limbs.

    Come up with something a bit more recent, not involving nuns or the Virgin and I'll happily (perhaps) think about it. No OoBE yet I see.
     
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    From memory - I did only scan the thing - she had some dreams and hallucinations. Someone wrote some of them down, possibly. Then someone else much later scoured the planet for something with a matching description, possibly. Then, surprise, someone found something like it.

    Proving nothing except you have not read it.

    That is the level of scientific thought CJD style. Draw conclusion first. Research evidence...NEVER.

    Unless it happens to agree with him, and then any old reference from wiki will do in support. Even if it doesnt mention the subject

    Sorry CJD
    Thats the end of the road.
    Got better things to do.
     
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    cjd

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    cjd

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    See what happens when you don't play with your toys nicely?? :eek:

    images


    He'll be back..........
     
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    Faith is merely something we humans hold on to to explain things that happen and things we want to happen. Its a crutch that helps us deal with all that life throws at us, whether its faith in a God, faith in ourselves, faith in money, faith in those around us etc etc.

    But the thing about faith is that its an individual thing and we all have the right to pick what to believe in, but we don't have the right to belittle someone elses faith, merely debate if their faith is 'better' at handling lifes crisis than ours!

    I think I agree with your diagnosis with the slight leaning towards faith being the way mankind deals with uncertainty.

    I long ago realized I would have to share this planet with a bunch of fruit cakes.

    So far I ain't been wrong.:eek:

    what I always find strange is that most people with a deep faith can be so upset by people holding a different view.

    I thought that was what faith was all about.:D:p:D

    Earl
     
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    Gillie

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    I think I agree with your diagnosis with the slight leaning towards faith being the way mankind deals with uncertainty.

    I long ago realized I would have to share this planet with a bunch of fruit cakes.

    So far I ain't been wrong.:eek:

    what I always find strange is that most people with a deep faith can be so upset by people holding a different view.

    I thought that was what faith was all about.:D:p:D

    Earl


    I need to go lie down in a quiet dark room .... did I really just read that you think you agree with me??

    Strangely enough those who get so uptight about having their faith questioned and asked why they believe in what they do, I have noticed tend to fall into two 'faction' camps .. let you guess which!
     
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    cjd

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    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." Stuart Chase

    At least half of that is right.

    Belief is only necessary because their is no proof; but there's also no evidence. Good evidence would be easy to provide and it would change every sceptic's mind overnight.

    "If I were to meet God, I would tell him that He should have given me more evidence". Bertrand Russell
     
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    cjd

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    That Russell quote got me into reading his most famous bit of atheist writing "Is there a God". For those who haven't read it, here it is (in two pieces):

    QUESTION weither there is a God is one which is decided on very different grounds by different communities and different indi viduals. The immense majority of mankind accept the prevailing opinion of their own community In the earliest times of which we have definite history everybody believed in many gods. It was the Jews who first believed in only one. The first commandment, when it was new, was very difficult to obey because the Jews had believed that Baal and Ashtaroth and Dagon and Moloch and the rest were real gods but were wicked because they helped the enemies of the Jews. The step from a belief that these gods were wicked to the belief that they did not exist was a difficult one. There was a time, namely that of Antiochus IV, when a vigorous attempt was made to Hellenize the Jews. Antiochus decreed that they should eat pork abandon circumcision, and take baths. Most of the Jews in Jerusalem submitted, but in country places resistance was more stubborn and under the leadership of the Maccabees the Jews at last established their right to their peculiar tenets and customs Monothiesm, which at the beginning of the Anti ochan persecution had been the creed of only part of one very small nation, was adopted by Christianity and later by Islam, and so became dominant throughout the whole of the world west of India. From India eastward, it had no success: Hinduism had many gods; Buddhism in its primitive form had none; and Confucianism had none from the eleventh century onward. But, if the truth of a religion is to be judged by its worldly success, the argument in favor of monotheism is a very strong one, since it possessed the largest armies, the largest navies, and the greatest accumula tion of wealth. In our own day this argument is growing less decisive. It is true that the un-Christian menace of Japan was defeated. But the Christian is now faced with the menace of atheistic Muscovite hordes, and it is not so certain as one could wish that atomic bombs will provide a conclusive argument on the side of theism.

    But let us abandon this political and geographical way of considering religions, which has been increasingly rejected by thinking people ever since the time of the ancient Greeks. Ever since that time there have been men who were not content to accept passively the religious opinions of their neighbors, but endeavoured to consider what reason and philos ophy might have to say about the matter. In the commercial cities of lonia, where philosophy was invented, there were free-thinkers in the sixth century B.C. Compared to modem free-thinkers they had an easy task, because the Olympian gods, however charming to poetic fancy were hardly such as could be defended by the metaphysical use of the unaided reason. They were met popularly by Orphism (to which Christianity owes much) and, philosophically, by Plato, from whom the Greeks derived a philosophical monotheism[ii] very different from the political and nation alistic monotheism of the Jews. When the Greek world became converted to Christianity it combined the new creed with Platonic metaphysics and so gave birth to theology. Catholic theologians, from the time of Saint Augustine to the present day, have believed that the existence of one God could be proved by the unaided reason. Their arguments were put into final form by Saint Thomas Aquinas in the thirteenth century. When modem philosophy began in the seventeenth century, Descartes and Leibnitz took over the old arguments, somewhat polished them up, and thus owing largely to their efforts, piety, it remained intellectually respectable. But Locke, although himself a completely convinced Christian, undermined the theoretical basis of the old arguments, and many of his followers, especially in France, became Atheists. I will not attempt to set forth in all their subtlety the philosophical arguments for the existence of God. There is, I think, only one of them which still has weight with philosophers, that is the argument of the First Cause. This argument maintains that, since everything that happens has a cause, there must be a First Cause from which the whole series starts. The argument suffers, however, from the same defect as that of the elephant and the tortoise. It is said (I do not know with what truth) that a certain Hindu thinker believed the earth to rest upon an elephant. When asked what the elephant rested upon, he replied that it rested upon a tortoise. When asked what the tortoise rested upon, he said, I am tired of this. Suppose we change the subject. This illustrates the unsatisfactory character of the First-Cause argument. Nev ertheless, you will find it in some ultra-modem treatises on physics, which contend that physical processes, traced backward in time, show that there must have been a sudden beginning and infer that this was due to divine Creation. They carefully abstain from attempts to show how this hypothesis makes matters more intelligible. The scholastic arguments for the existence of a Supreme Being are now rejected by most Protestant theologians in favor of new arguments which to my mind are by no means an improvement. The scholastic arguments were genuine efforts of thought and, if their reasoning had been sound, they would have demonstrated the truth of their conclu sion. The new arguments, which Modernists prefer, are vague; and the Modernists reject with contempt every effort to make them precise. There is an appeal to the heart as opposed to the intellect. It is not maintained that those who reject the new arguments are illogical, but that they are destitute of deep feeling or of moral sense. Let us never theless examine the modern arguments and see whether there is any thing that they really prove.

    One of the favourite arguments is from evolution. The world was once lifeless, and when life began it was a poor sort of life consisting of green slime and other uninteresting things. Gradually by the course of evolution, it developed into animals and plants and at last into MAN. Man, so the theologians assure us, is so splendid a Being that he may well be regarded as the culmination to which the long ages of nebula and slime were a prelude. I think the theologians must have been for tunate in their human contacts. They do not seem to me to have given due weight to Hitler or the Beast of Belsen.[iii] If Omnipotence, with all time at its disposal, thought it worth while to lead up to these men through the many millions of years of evolution, I can only say that the moral and aesthetic taste involved is peculiar. However, the theologians no doubt hope that the future course of evolution will produce more men like themselves and fewer men like Hitler. Let us hope so. But, in cherishing this hope, we are abandoning the ground of experience and taking refuge in an optimism which history so far does not support.

    There are other objections to this evolutionary optimism. There is every reason to believe that life on our planet will not continue forever so that any optimism based upon the course of terrestrial history must be temporary and limited in its purview. There may, of course, be life elsewhere but, if there is, we know nothing about it and have no reason to suppose that it bears more resemblance to the virtuous theologians than to Hitler. The earth is a very tiny corner of the universe. It is a little fragment of the solar system. The solar system is a little fragment of the Milky Way. And the Milky Way is a little fragment of the many millions of galaxies revealed by modern telescopes. In this little insignificant corner of the cosmos there is a brief interlude between two long lifeless

    epochs. In this brief interlude, there is a much briefer one containing man. If really man is the purpose of the universe, the preface seems a little long. One is reminded of some prosy old gentleman who tells an interminable anecdote all quite uninteresting until the rather small point in which it ends. I do not think theologians show a suitable piety in making such a comparison possible.

    It has been one of the defects of theologians at all times to over-esti mate the importance of our planet. No doubt this was natural enough in the days before Copernicus when it was thought that the heavens revolve about the earth. But since Copernicus and still more since the modern exploration of distant regions, this pre-occupation with the earth has become rather parochial. If the universe had a Creator, it is hardly reasonable to suppose that He was specially interested in our little corner. And, if He was not, His values must have been different from ours, since in the immense majority of regions life is impossible.
     
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    cjd

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    There is a moralistic argument for belief in God, which was popular ized by William James.[iv] According to this argument, we ought to believe in God because, if we do not, we shall not behave well. The first and greatest objection to this argument is that at its best, it cannot prove that there is a God but only that politicians and educators ought to try to make people think there is one. Whether this ought to be done or not is not a theological question but a political one. The arguments are of the same sort as those which urge that children should be taught respect for the flag. A man with any genuine religious feeling will not be content with the view that the belief in God is useful, because he will wish to know whether, in fact, there is a God. It is absurd to contend that the two questions are the same. In the nursery, belief in Father Christmas is useful, but grown-up people do not think that this proves Father Christmas to be real.

    Since we are not concerned with politics, we might consider this suf ficient refutation of the moralistic argument, but it is perhaps worth while to pursue this a little further. It is, in the first place, very doubtful whether belief in God has all the beneficial moral effects that are attrib uted to it. Many of the best men known to history have been unbe lievers. John Stuart Mill may serve as an instance. And many of the worst men known to history have been believers. Of this there are innu merable instances. Perhaps Henry VIII may serve as typical. However that may be, it is always disastrous when governments set to work to uphold opinions for their utility rather than for their truth. As soon as this is done it becomes necessary to have a censorship to suppress adverse arguments, and it is thought wise to discourage thinking among the young for fear of encouraging dangerous thoughts. When such mal practices are employed against religion as they are in Soviet Russia, the theologians can see that they are bad, but they are still bad when employed in defense of what the theologians think good. Freedom of thought and the habit of giving weight to evidence are matters of far greater moral import than the belief in this or that theological dogma. On all these grounds it cannot be maintained that theological beliefs should be upheld for their usefulness without regard to their truth.

    There is a simpler and more naive form of the same argument, which appeals to many individuals. People will tell us that without the consolations of religion they would be intolerably unhappy. So far as this is true, it is a cowards argument. Nobody but a coward would con sciously choose to live in a fools paradise. When a man suspects his wife of infidelity, he is not thought the better of for shutting his eyes to the evidence. And I cannot see why ignoring evidence should be con*temptible in one case and admirable in the other. Apart from this argu ment the importance of religion in contributing to individual happi ness is very much exaggerated. Whether you are happy or unhappy depends upon a number of factors. Most people need good health and enough to eat. They need the good opinion of their social milieu and the affection of their intimates. They need not only physical health but mental health. Given all these things, most people will be happy what ever their theology. Without them, most people will be unhappy, what*ever their theology. In thinking over the people I have known, I do not find that on the average those who had religious beliefs were happier than those who had not.

    When I come to my own beliefs, I find myself quite unable to dis cern any purpose in the universe, and still more unable to wish to dis cern one. Those who imagine that the course of cosmic evolution is slowly leading up to some consummation pleasing to the Creator, are logically committed (though they usually fail to realize this) to the view that the Creator is not omnipotent or, if He were omnipotent, He could decree the end without troubling about means. I do not myself perceive any consummation toward which the universe is tending. According to the physicists, energy will be gradually more evenly distributed and as it becomes more evenly distributed it will become more useless. Gradually everything that we find interesting or pleasant, such as life and light, will disappearso, at least, they assure us. The cosmos is like a theatre in which just once a play is performed, but, after the curtain falls, the theatre is left cold and empty until it sinks in ruins. I do not mean to assert with any positiveness that this is the case. That would be to assume more knowledge than we possess. I say only that it is what is probable on present evidence. I will not assert dogmatically that there is no cosmic purpose, but I will say that there is no shred of evidence in favor of there being one.

    I will say further that, if there be a purpose and if this purpose is that of an Omnipotent Creator, then that Creator, so far from being loving and kind, as we are told, must be of a degree of wickedness scarcely conceivable. A man who commits a murder is considered to be a bad man. An Omnipotent Deity, if there be one, murders everybody [emphasis inserted by JK]. A man who willingly afflicted another with cancer would be considered a fiend. But the Creator, if He exists, afflicts many thousands every year with this dreadful disease. A man who, having the knowledge and power required to make his children good, chose instead to make them bad, would be viewed with execration. But God, if He exists, makes this choice in the case of very many of His children. The whole conception of an omnipotent God whom it is impious to criticize, could only have arisen under oriental despotisms where sovereigns, in spite of capri cious cruelties, continued to enjoy the adulation of their slaves. It is the psychology appropriate to this outmoded political system which belat edly survives in orthodox theology.

    There is, it is true, a Modernist form of theism, according to which God is not omnipotent, but is doing His best, in spite of great difficul ties. This view, although it is new among Christians, is not new in the history of thought. It is, in fact, to be found in Plato. I do not think this view can be proved to be false. I think all that can be said is that there is no positive reason in its favour. Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of scep tics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion pro*vided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time. It is customary to suppose that, if a belief is widespread, there must be something reasonable about it. I do not think this view can be held by anyone who has studied history. Practi cally all the beliefs of savages are absurd. In early civilizations there may be as much as one percent for which there is something to be said. In our own day (but at this point I must be careful), we all know that there are absurd beliefs in Soviet Russia. If we are Protestants, we know that there are absurd beliefs among Catholics. If we are Catholics, we know that there are absurd beliefs among Protestants. If we are Conser vatives, we are amazed by the superstitions to be found in the Labour Party. If we are Socialists, we are aghast at the credulity of Conservatives. I do not know, dear reader, what your beliefs may be, but whatever they may be, you must concede that nine-tenths of the beliefs of nine-tenths of mankind are totally irrational. The beliefs in question are, of course, those which you do not hold. I cannot, therefore, think it presump tuous to doubt something which has long been held to be true, espe cially when this opinion has only prevailed in certain geographical regions, as is the case with all theological opinions.

    My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true. Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.

    IS THERE A GOD?

    (1952)

    Bertrand Russell
     
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    Russel uses flawed reasoning.

    He starts of with the flawed assumption that "god"(or any other entity)
    must be capable of logical deduction in order to exist.

    He seems to revel in the failure of others in a futile quest to prove existence as superiority in his equally futile intention to argue against it.

    He then compounds that with flawed assumption , that lack of logical proof, is ipso facto proof or even evidence against it.

    The rest...is fluff and window dressing


    Logic is closed.

    It can only proof or disprove propositions based on the definitions ofentities, not the existence of the entities themselves

    So proof of existence is futile. As is proof of non existence

    Logic is also abstract - scientsists please note.

    Logic relates not to the world, but abstract definitions assumed from it.

    Any inconsistency observed is not inconsisteny in the world or but in the abstract definitions on which the logical argument forms.

    Even proof AGAINST a proposition for existence of an entity based on a definition, ( which incidentally russel does not do in respect of "god") is not in essence proof against the existence of the entity.
    It comments only on the defnition. Not the entity itself.

    It is not surprising Russel loses a futile argument,
    rather like a cat chasing his own tail not realising he can never win.

    The strongest statement he makes, is that nobody has ever proven to him that god exists.
    My comment. Not surprising, since even accepting a lemma of existence, such a proof is still not possible.
    So why does russel think it worthy of comment?
     
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    Hi Friends,
    People have been asking, discussing and arguing about the existance of God for centuries and they will continue to do this. This has never been a question for me, because without a shadow of a doubt I AM A BELIEVER in a GOD of creation, a loving and caring father. I know him in my personal life. What more evidence do I need?
     
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    cjd

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    Russel uses flawed reasoning.

    It takes a very confident chap to say that about one of the greatest thinkers of the 20th Century - I take my hat off to you sir.

    Bertrand Russell studied mathematics at Trinity College, Cambridge, and later took up a fellowship there. He began writing in the 1890s, and his Principles of Mathematics (1903) is a landmark work on the philosophy of mathematics. The brief paper On Denoting (1905) created a revolution in philosophy, especially in the realms of epistemology and the philosophy of language; it was followed by such works as Our Knowledge of the External World (1914), An Inquiry into Meaning and Truth (1940), and Human Knowledge: Its Scope and Limits (1948).

    He received the Nobel Prize for literature in 1939
     
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    Hi Friends,
    People have been asking, discussing and arguing about the existance of God for centuries and they will continue to do this. This has never been a question for me, because without a shadow of a doubt I AM A BELIEVER in a GOD of creation, a loving and caring father. I know him in my personal life. What more evidence do I need?

    None. If you have faith, well, then you have faith. Nothing wrong with that. However, anything that's not strictly personal feeling is open to discussion and argument. For example, stating God is "a loving and carng father" as a general statement, and not just a personal perception requires some convincing of others. I don't see it, if the Bible is to be believed.
     
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    Russel uses flawed reasoning.

    He starts of with the flawed assumption that "god"(or any other entity)
    must be capable of logical deduction in order to exist.

    Bang on they money with the addition that to think any other entity would think in human terms is ridiculous.

    Using human language or thought processes may not be applicable to solving the riddle of the universe.:rolleyes:

    Bertie was always an arrogant little twit.:)

    or you can fool some of the people some of the time..................

    Earl
     
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    cjd

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    Bang on they money with the addition that to think any other entity would think in human terms is ridiculous.

    I imagine that the god that created us and is apparently all knowing would also know how we think and adjust his behaviour accordingly?

    But only if he gives a stuff of course; if not I'm with you.
     
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    cjd

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    marchog

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    And some here may argue that evidence of God's existence is all around you?

    Could be Beach. How do you know it's your one? It is your one isn't it? The one that shares your prejudices and agrees with you how your neighbours ought to behave. Or is it Stockdam's one, the guardian of the office stationery cupboard? Or is it Ad's one - the one who teases sleeping nuns, or is it DCE's one - the door to door salesman? or is it one of the other 3 million?

    It's the one that agrees with you isn't it?
     
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    It's the one that agrees with you isn't it?

    No, all the names / religious texts / dogma / structure / belief and doctorine all refer to the same thing.

    To draw from a recent thread here:

    Some people love U2
    Others hate U2
    Some are indifferent towards U2.
    Some only like their early stuff
    Some only like their later stuff
    Some only like one song

    Doesn't mean there are 6 U2's out there.
     
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    marchog

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    No, all the names / religious texts / dogma / structure / belief and doctorine all refer to the same thing.

    To draw from a recent thread here:

    Some people love U2
    Others hate U2
    Some are indifferent towards U2.
    Some only like their early stuff
    Some only like their later stuff
    Some only like one song

    Doesn't mean there are 6 U2's out there.

    Well I can name more than six. How about Thor? is he the same as your one?
     
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