UK in Financial trouble, lets make things harder

[RockLinks]

I just recieved an email from a friend that the goverment plan to bring Noise limiters in to UK Music Venues, i know there have been whispers for ages but this seems like the most serious claim. This will sereiously damage Live Music.

My first point, should they be worried about this and focusing more on the financial climate.

My second point, how is this helping Business! Music Venues, Record Companies, Bars, Clubs, ME! they will all suffer.


There is a petition online http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/NoNoiseControl/ not that they do much good!

Craig

 

[Cornish Steve]

Sorry to present the other side of this argument, Craig, but I have no problem with noise control. In fact, it's about time.

In general, I have a big problem with the government imposing unnecessary rules and regulations. Noise, though, is a form of pollution that can affect a lot of people. Whether it's cars blaring music or venues playing too loudly at all hours, it's not unreasonable to enforce limits on noise pollution. There's nothing worse than having to get to sleep early (for example, to get up early for work) and being prevented from doing so by someone playing very loud music from across the street.

Can I start a petition for the noise limiters?

 

[Esk247]

dont get me started on this one....there is a band stand in whitby .. yes a BAND STAND!...its no longer used because the council have barred 'excessive noise pollution between the hours of 7pm and 10am'

along with this..they are now looking at banning street artists who 'make too much noise and are a nuisance' as well as 'clubs that have loud music on till 2am..or later'

 

[RockLinks]

My arguement back would be not to listen! Bands and Clubs are noisy anyway, if people had a problem with it they just shouldnt go. In terms of live Music, you can only turn things down so low, to sound right which is normally way above what the stupid noise limiters are set to. You also cant turn Drums down!

 

[Morgy]

Sorry to present the other side of this argument, Craig, but I have no problem with noise control. In fact, it's about time.

In general, I have a big problem with the government imposing unnecessary rules and regulations. Noise, though, is a form of pollution that can affect a lot of people. Whether it's cars blaring music or venues playing too loudly at all hours, it's not unreasonable to enforce limits on noise pollution. There's nothing worse than having to get to sleep early (for example, to get up early for work) and being prevented from doing so by someone playing very loud music from across the street.

Can I start a petition for the noise limiters?

It must be loud if you can hear it in the US!!

 

[Cornish Steve]

My arguement back would be not to listen! Bands and Clubs are noisy anyway, if people had a problem with it they just shouldnt go. In terms of live Music, you can only turn things down so low, to sound right which is normally way above what the stupid noise limiters are set to. You also cant turn Drums down!

How can you not listen? Imagine that you're a factory worker with a shift starting at 4am. A venue opens across the street, and it's very noisy. What is the poor guy supposed to do? You can't just choose not to listen. The music venue is imposing on his right to silence.

If music venues want to play loud music, they should either install sound insulation or move to a remote location. Sorry to have little sympathy, but I remember facing this problem once when living in Britain. It's incredibly selfish of such venues to keep neighbours awake for all hours. For once, I agree with a government regulation.

 

[Faith28]

That's strange...so why are people protesting about runways if the government want to reduce noise pollution...surely that is more of a concern than a live gig where people are happily being entertained?

There are so many contradictions with this government...healthy eating initiative adverts next junk food adverts...continue having banks lend money when we should be saving...encourage hight street spending when again we should be saving...what do they want, healthy, junk, save, spend...no wonder we're in a mess there are so many paradoxes.

Sorry to moan and divert the discussion but it just all seems to be 'show that you're doing something when you're not doing anything at all'.

 

[Cornish Steve]

It must be loud if you can hear it in the US!!

Here in Georgia, there's a law that prevents individuals from playing music that can be heard more than 100 yards away. Personally, I like this law because it respects my right to silence on my own property. I have no problem with venues playing loud music, but they must pay for the privilege by installing sound insulation or by moving somewhere that's more remote. Symphony orchestras, for example, play in halls and theatres designed to contain the sound. Why should other music groups be allowed to get away with blatant noise pollution that impacts their neighbours?

Maybe I'll start a petition for affected neighbours to open their windows and play opera at full volume on their home stereos. Let's see how the venues like a dose of their own medicine.

 

[Esk247]

there are two sides to every story.

but they are blanket covering with legislation again..basically...ANYTHING above a certain level is deemed unacceptable...soooo what about roadworks? or brass bands? or school choirs? or shopping centre singalongs? or public announcements at election time? or loud exhausts on boy racer cars?

the list is endless

 

[Cornish Steve]

there are two sides to every story.

but they are blanket covering with legislation again..basically...ANYTHING above a certain level is deemed unacceptable...soooo what about roadworks? or brass bands? or school choirs? or shopping centre singalongs? or public announcements at election time? or loud exhausts on boy racer cars?

the list is endless

If this is how it's implemented, I agree with you. If the intent, however, is to prevent noise pollution, I have no problem. It's not the noise, per se, that I object to (although the current epidemic in hearing loss may cause some to question the noise level itself) but the impact of that noise on other people.

 

[RockLinks]

I can garentee if we put a noise limiter in a busy shopping centre it would go off, noise is everywhere. Everyone loves Music, so why take that away from us?

 

[Esk247]

If this is how it's implemented, I agree with you. If the intent, however, is to prevent noise pollution, I have no problem. It's not the noise, per se, that I object to (although the current epidemic in hearing loss may cause some to question the noise level itself) but the impact of that noise on other people.

ah well in that case..i refer to the rule that i was sent by the council regarding the conversion of a building to a recording studio in that said building 'must contain the correct levels of insulation as to not affect properties within the immediate location of the build'

if i went ahead with my plans, i'd have to make sure nobody could hear the music in the properties either side of the building.

in which case..that would be fine!

 

[AdamJ]

What is the actual proposal being made before everyone gets hot under the collar on the basis of an e-mail saying 'anything over xdB is going to be banned' as most of the time these turns out to be nonsense? I see nothing on the BBC news which would surely have covered this, I see nothing on the noise section of the HSE's website, etc.

Currrent noise regs. relate to people at work in pubs, bars, gig venues, etc. and have done so for over 20 years. Since the 1980s pubs, gig venues, clubs, etc. have had to measure noise and control noise exposure to staff. Its no big deal to do that. What is this 'new law' actually saying? What is a 'noise control device' as the petition mentions? 200 people shouting in a club will exceed the 85dB(A) limit - will it mute their voices? Restaurants when busy commonly exceed the upper limits now - will people only be able to eat in silence? The bare bones of the petition sounds a bit hysterical without any further info to back it up.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Everyone loves Music, so why take that away from us?

Not when it prevents me and my family from sleeping at 11pm.

If I want to listen to an orchestra, I must pay a price that in part reflects the cost of a venue that controls the noise. Why shouldn't those attending a band concert do the same?

 

[RockLinks]

Well i got sent the email today but its about the 10th time i have recieved it in the past 6 weeks from various Businesses and contacts, so its doing rounds. Dont know anymore about it though.

 

[Gillie]

Well i got sent the email today but its about the 10th time i have recieved it in the past 6 weeks from various Businesses and contacts, so its doing rounds. Dont know anymore about it though.

Aint this a case of being a 'drama queen' then? Surely until you know the specifics and how they affect business and even if it will, you can't use emotive headlines as you have?

 

[An Oasis]

Tis true Gillie the Nuthought police are gradually throttling every sector of society with some hideous master plan.

If you don't want to hear loud music don't buy a property near to a live music venue, simple. As for a shift worker being forced to listen to live music, I bet if they had the choice of that or some puerile Karaoke music being pumped out by the BBC and 99% of commercial stations my money would be on the former.

I would be surprised if we can find anyone on the forum whose life is blighted by live music, FFS the creative industries in the UK are one of the few areas we excel in start taking those away and the bloody country is doomed, doomed I tell you.

As for the H&S bods once they are given a bit of legislation they have to enforce it, even if they do think it's a tossy bit of legislation.

As an ex-pro muso working at high volume was fab, we loved it, the punters loved it, so what's changed? The thought police are here and these cretins just love the fact that they have a bit of power. These people are pervasive from the top of society down. Just go to you local tip, getting rid of waste is a whole new experience. Every one of those idiots has a well-groomed Hitler tash, the click of the heals after instructing you exactly which skip to go to and the Germanic bark at anyone who dares to move before they are told.

 

[Cromulent]

I just recieved an email from a friend that the goverment plan to bring Noise limiters in to UK Music Venues, i know there have been whispers for ages but this seems like the most serious claim. This will sereiously damage Live Music.

Why? Do you need to deafen people (literally) in order to make live music popular?

 

[An Oasis]

Why? Do you need to deafen people (literally) in order to make live music popular?

That's like asking a vicar if s/he an atheist.

 

[Cromulent]

That's like asking a vicar if s/he an atheist.

Not really. I love live music. I hate organisers who think that they make their music sound better by blaring it at 120dbs or some other ungodly sound level.

I'd quite like to be able to hear live music for the rest of my life not deafen myself by the age of 30 because of stupid organisers / bar owners / whatever thinking that loud music > all.

 

[An Oasis]

...I'd quite like to be able to hear live music for the rest of my life not deafen myself by the age of 30 because of stupid organisers / bar owners / whatever thinking that loud music > all.

Buddy did it full-time for 16 years, no adverse affects...and we are talking live, studio the lot always loud.

As for attending the occasional gig and having problems if that were the case, the USA would be awash with class A actions.

 

[Cornish Steve]

Buddy did it full-time for 16 years, no adverse affects...and we are talking live, studio the lot always loud.

As for attending the occasional gig and having problems if that were the case, the USA would be awash with class A actions.

One of three U.S. adults already suffers from some degree of hearing loss and the use of personal stereos and an aging population may create a hearing impairment epidemic, researchers said on Monday...“The prevalence of hearing loss in the United States is predicted to rise significantly because of an aging population and the growing use of personal listening devices. Indeed, there is concern that we may be facing an epidemic of hearing impairment,” Dr. Yuri Agrawal of the Baltimore hospital wrote.

Statistics show that hearing loss among young adults is on the fast track to becoming an epidemic...According to the National Institute on Deafness and Other Communication Disorders, sounds louder than 85 decibels can cause permanent damage to ears...Common symptoms include short periods of muffled hearing and ringing in the ears - symptoms many young adults can relate to having experienced after hearing a concert, parade or other loud event...Stuart said students who habitually attend live concerts suffer more exposure than most. "Music these days is so dang loud. All the performers are half deaf from performing so much, [so] they turn up their amps to compensate."

[FONT=&quot]The hearing losses that have been observed are very real and scientifically well documented, and there is no reason to doubt the audiologists' warning that the problem is reaching epidemic proportions.[/FONT]

Contemporary music may be an important yet little considered contributor to total personal noise exposure, especially amongst young employees. Employees need to be better informed of risks of hearing loss and the need to report changes in hearing acuity.

A cursory search of the Internet reveals that noise pollution and premature hearing loss have reached epidemic proportions. What? Oh. I said "A cursory search of the Internet reveals that noise pollution and premature hearing loss have reached epidemic proportions."

 

[An Oasis]

LOL and that is due to using personal stereos and nothing to do with LIVE MUSIC! You're looking at stats produced by companies that have to get PR in order to be seen and further the funding cause...

Face it Steve if there was even a 50/50% chance your legal bods would have CLASS A in abundance...

 

[seasonsonline]

I have enough noise at home with 2 young kids running riot most of the day, and I never go out to concerts, pubs etc.- Too busy, and i sickened myself with all that when I was in my teens and 20's.- So, if the government can do anything to make things quiet then I'm ALL FOR IT!!

 

[Cromulent]

LOL and that is due to using personal stereos and nothing to do with LIVE MUSIC! You're looking at stats produced by companies that have to get PR in order to be seen and further the funding cause...

Face it Steve if there was even a 50/50% chance your legal bods would have CLASS A in abundance...

Heh. This isn't something you can debate. It is medical fact that exposure to loud noise (including music) can damage hearing. Just look at all the people with tinnitus because of going clubbing or to other music venues.

Most venues are well above the level for hearing damage. Even some cinemas are loud enough to cause hearing damage.

 

[tom111]

Everyone loves Music

Let's be pendantic, most people may love music, but not everyone does. I, for example, dislike music. In particular, I loath music at pubs / clubs / shopping centres / retail venues.

 

[AdamJ]

Has the world gone mad?? Before condemning yet another but of nanny state regulation, nobody seems to know what is actually the detail beiing referred to, if anything.

As for the H&S bods once they are given a bit of legislation they have to enforce it, even if they do think it's a tossy bit of legislation.

Also, "H&S Bods" cover H&S at work, so punters attending gigs, clubs, etc. is nothing to do with 'H&S Bods'. And a lot of what is reported as being 'banned for H&S reasons' is usually nonsense. In the last couple of weeks I've been asked on an audit why ladders are 'banned' (they're not) and why the HSE has said public benches have to be removed and replaced (they've not, its a media myth, although in this case the local council believed the myth and was acting on it, thus reinforcing it).

Before condemning yet more H&S madness, what are the facts of this particular issue?? We seem to have a 2 page thread of wind with no firm foundation of what the issue actually is?

 

There used to be a decent nightclub in my town, but then a load of new people moved into the houses across the road, kicked up a stink about the noise, and had its license revoked.

Now, why did these people move beside a nightclub and then kick off about the noise... personally I would have done my homework before buying the house.

They thought like the majority of people now think, "we'll just move in and make them quieten it down".

I agree, it is not nice to have noise keeping you awake, and my neighbours know this very well I also think that people complain a lot nowadays even when something is not that bad, or is not really enough to annoy them if they were not little upstarts.

Maybe I like music though, and am selfish enough because the noise does not directly affect me

 

[movietub]

I don't like excessive noise from clubs, I don't like going to noisey clubs. I perfer to talk and be heard. Frankly, when I was single, this also made it easier to pull

But I don't have a general problem with noisey clubs, some people love them and love bleeding ears afterwards.

What I HATE as many of you do is the government telling anyone what to do. If one thing should have been learned by now its that, with Labour, when you hear a rumour of a new law it will almot always happen. They discuss it little and often, everyones says its rediculous, they keep on mentioning it occasionally. By the time they actually pass the law all the protestors have given up protesting and got used to the idea.

I would be quite happy, very happy in fact, if clubs were quitened down a great deal. But I would be happier if the government would focus on directing the country, not bossing it around!

Only one thing will sove this problem, vote conservative! Labour have passed thousands of laws in the last 10 years. Fair enough a couple of thousand came in with EU legislation but we actually attemot to enforce them all as well!

I recently went to Verona, Italy - they have laws there for almost everything. Every government brings new laws, the governments change very frequently, the laws remain but no one is instructed to enforce them. And during my visit I was not stabbed, happy slapped or mugged. My guides willingness to drive on the pavement sorted the traffic issues and the local police were more than happy to step back as they wanted to get somewhere too. I'm not joking.

Then there is Germany. A country that was eventually forced to ban smoking indoors. Just like us. Except on the first day of the ban over here we all behaved and went outside. In germany no one did. The government back tracked and announced the 'soft application' of the new law had gone well and proper enforcement would start soon. It just has not.

Monaco is possibly the best place in Europe for basic laws and leaving the rest to common sense (sort of in Europe but then so are we) in that the laws are all the obvious ones, however the police are allowed pretty much full discretion. If the law applies but is rediculous to enforce they will not. Also if you don't break a law but do act like an idiot the police have the power to throw you out - no questions asked. The police being human are perfectly equipped to make such decisions so micro legislation just isn't required.

I guess what most of mainland Eurpoe has in common is while the laws exist in varying degrees of complexity the police are still allowed to use their own discretion. Our are not, they are target driven so we feel the full irritation of every new law before we even know it exists.

Even America is more free than we are now, its a nightmare.

EDIT: Sorry for going off topic - I have strong feelings in this area lol

 

[Cornish Steve]

EDIT: Sorry for going off topic - I have strong feelings in this area lol

No need to apologize. I'm with you all the way! 99% of laws and regulations are simply not necessary. It's government meddling and the gradual erosion of personal rights. I am against the smoking ban, for example, even though I hate smoking, because restaurants etc. should be allowed to choose. Many of the laws applied to business, including minimum wage, are experiments in social engineering and just another form of meddling.

In this case, though, I do believe there should be limits on noise, simply because unduly loud venues affect the rights of the individual to silence in their own homes. In this case, if the law is implemented appropriately, it would be a defence of individual rights and not an attack on those who seek to make or listen to a loud noise.

 

[movietub]

No need to apologize. I'm with you all the way! 99% of laws and regulations are simply not necessary. It's government meddling and the gradual erosion of personal rights. I am against the smoking ban, for example, even though I hate smoking, because restaurants etc. should be allowed to choose. Many of the laws applied to business, including minimum wage, are experiments in social engineering and just another form of meddling.

In this case, though, I do believe there should be limits on noise, simply because unduly loud venues affect the rights of the individual to silence in their own homes. In this case, if the law is implemented appropriately, it would be a defence of individual rights and not an attack on those who seek to make or listen to a loud noise.

Thanks mate, I'm sure we all feel more strongly about this every passing year!

I see a problem with noise limiters however. I assume they will work on a DB limit rather than noise type...

That makes almost all actions potentially illegal surely? The way we hear certain noises rnages means that music (which is designed to be heard) sounds much louder at lower DB than several everyday background noises of the same DB.

Have a look at this

TYPICAL SOUND LEVELS
Jet takeoff (200 feet)120 dBA
Construction Site110 dBA
Shout (5 feet)100 dBA
Heavy truck (50 feet)90 dBA
Urban street80 dBA
Automobile interior 70 dBA
Normal conversation (3 feet)60 dBA
Office, classroom50 dBA
Living room40 dBA
Bedroom at night30 dBA
Broadcast studio20 dBA
Rustling leaves10 dBA

So even though in your car interior you hear nothing of note its noisier than being in a classroom or the living room at home watching TV. Strangely you are hearing more than if you are having a conversation with someone.

And I'm willing to bet that ALL brass instruments frequently hit very high DB momentarily. Also High heels will be playing with fire. Harley Davidson's will be officially banned from our shores. No chance for them. Also certain birds will require shooting. And most dogs, all of which are technically as loud as any nightclub when barking. Oh and crying babies too. Although so long as they are under 17 I guess its a caution? Well ok don't shoot them, too noisey, stone them.

Shouting too will clearly be out. It may be hard to get a DB metre on a shouter quickly enough but the fact they were prepared to shout means they were prepared to risk breaking the law. and it was premeditated!

Maybe its only prolonged or consistant noise they will target? If they measure all things from the same distance from source a lot of church bells will have to come down. Or maybe just one 'ding' each wedding?

This can only get more stupid so I will stop. Why can't it be as simple as living somewhere quiet if you like it quiet, if your too busy to care live anywhere you want. England does not require new laws to stop anyone being offended. If you don't like the laws we have already - move out! Lots of other countries to choose from.

 

[Cromulent]

This can only get more stupid so I will stop. Why can't it be as simple as living somewhere quiet if you like it quiet, if your too busy to care live anywhere you want. England does not require new laws to stop anyone being offended. If you don't like the laws we have already - move out! Lots of other countries to choose from.

Good choice. Perhaps you should take your own advice?

Being more serious on this, going to see live music which you want to see and having to wear noise reducing ear plugs to protect your ears is ridiculous. If the venue won't take a reasonable approach then someone has too or you'll just end up damaging the hearing of those who are too ignorant of the damage it is causing them.

Every single time you get ringing in the ears from live music you have permanently damaged your hearing. So what are we supposed to do? Stop going to see live music? I'd rather not thanks, I love going clubbing and seeing bands play live.

 

[Saberu]

There used to be a decent nightclub in my town, but then a load of new people moved into the houses across the road, kicked up a stink about the noise, and had its license revoked.

Now, why did these people move beside a nightclub and then kick off about the noise... personally I would have done my homework before buying the house.

They probably couldn't afford a house in the nicer areas thanks to our governments legendary land planning laws where it is an outright crime to build houses on green field land bar a few exceptions. Between supply control and easy credit house prices have sky rocketed to unaffordable levels and are only finally coming down recently.

And considering how much it costs to even rent a flat I'm not surprised people jumped at the easy credit for houses.

As to the music issue, I think clubs use loud music to put people in a trance like state (similar to being drunk) to encourage them to buy more booze..and it works! I like going into trace sometimes but I got fed up with it eventually and was dissapointed that very few reasonable volume clubs existed (as it's less profitable). I also agree with this law, but only if it's used in a fair manner. It may turn out to be one of the few good things Labour have done.

 

[An Oasis]

Heh. This isn't something you can debate. It is medical fact that exposure to loud noise (including music) can damage hearing. Just look at all the people with tinnitus because of going clubbing or to other music venues.

Most venues are well above the level for hearing damage. Even some cinemas are loud enough to cause hearing damage.

You're fodder for the thought police. In every one of those instances, any of those individuals could make the conscious decision to either stay or leave...any no one forcing them to stay.

Anyway for anyone that can be bothered to wade through this and as employers the LAW says that you must!!!!

The whole discussion stems from this 62 page report .

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr664.pdf

From the conclusion.

Musicians are exposed to high levels of noise, which could cause permanent hearing damage with prolonged exposure. The requirements of the Control of Noise at Work Regulations 2005 came into force in April 2008 in the music and entertainment industry. This legislation introduced similar action and limit values for employers as previous noise legislation but at lower levels of noise exposure. Employers have a duty under this legislation to prevent hearing damage and one of the methods used for controlling noise exposure is the use of appropriate hearing protection.

Musicians are reluctant to wear any type of hearing protection when playing solo or exposed pieces of music, which require them to play at the highest possible standard. Musicians believe that if they cannot hear the sound generated by their own instrument properly, they will not be able to make fine adjustments to their playing, control how loud or soft they play, or play in tune with other players with any confidence. Principal musicians, and woodwind and brass musicians, are likely to be the most resistant to wearing hearing protection.

However, this report only really looks at a limited spectrum of the music industry.

For anyone who is not a musician consider this one fact before you say that musicians just need educating and that they are stupid for putting themselves at needless risks…

Could you consciously operate anything at 100ths of a second? Because that is what a musician is doing. Not sure? Sit next to a ticking clock; every tick is one second, right? Now imagine playing say 16 notes per second, now imagine having to listen to all the other instruments at the same time, now take it one stage further – stick some cotton wool in your ears and try the same exercise…Now your thinking like a musician!

 

[AdamJ]

Two clarifications. The post about how your hearing is 'tuned' is part-way there, but the tuning is towards key speech frequencies, not other noises. Your ear adds about 32dB to noise levels, notably at the 4 and 6kHz levels, hence it is the ability to distinguish speech which goes first with noise exposures.

Musicians have a choice, wear protection now, or damage hearing and don't play in the future. We do hearing tests for a couple of orchestras and the damage being done will impact people's ability to work. There are flat response hearing protectors available for musicians which make no alteration to the tones at all, just the volume. Trouble is, musicians usually think their hearing is somehow different to other people's and will be fine.

The speed of response raised earlier is a non-issue.

 

[RockLinks]

No offence to anyone hear (ha ha get it) but i do sound for many Bands. Music has to be at a certain volume for it to sound right. All Bands have drummers and you cant turn the volume of a drum down, the volume has to be high enough to make all the instruments and vocals the same volume. Loud Music also makes people want to dance more. I will agree that some Clubs do play rediculously high but thats because its a normally a DJ and DJ's don't know good sound even if it jumped up and hit them over the head with a banjo.

 

[An Oasis]

Musicians have a choice, wear protection now, or damage hearing and don't play in the future. We do hearing tests for a couple of orchestras and the damage being done will impact people's ability to work. There are flat response hearing protectors available for musicians which make no alteration to the tones at all, just the volume. Trouble is, musicians usually think their hearing is somehow different to other people's and will be fine.

The speed of response raised earlier is a non-issue.

Lots of pros and cons in the link previously provided as to why musicians are not happy with the current batch of ear defenders.

 

[Future Freak]

Everyone loves Music

Not strictly true : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7816095.stm

 

[RockLinks]

Everyone must have tapped a foot to the radio now and again surely!

 

[An Oasis]

RIP Music RL, the world is full of uneducated swine. Still at least the industry has a genius like Simon Cowell milking what's left of an imploding art form.:|