Tenancy Agreement

[Paul-59]

Hi all
I have some questions regarding a tenancy agreement - and a dispute arising therefrom.
For around 23 years I have rented from a farmer an office, some parking space and half a near-derelict barn in which I have built a workshop (large Stirling board box essentially with machine tools, benches etc) and installed a four post lift.

I maintain my own vehicles and other business related kit as well as pursuing hobbies such as model engineering on site.

The nature of the tenancy is 'craft workshop', this seems to be a work-around that farmers use to rent buildings no longer viable for agriculture. The space I rent is not registered with the council. No non-domestic rates have ever been paid.

I am not in arrears with the rent.

About five years ago I installed the four post lift. To do so some items stored within the barn were put in the open. About two years ago I removed yet more itms to facilitate repairs to the roof of the barn.

No comment, verbal or in writing has ever been made re items stored in the open.

I have been served notice to remove items stored "outside licenced areas" by 1 Nov and to quit the site entirely by 20 Nov. If I fail to remove items they will be seized and disposed of - costs of disposal chargeable to me. This under the Torts (interference with goods) act.

It seems at first blush that they have given themselves the right to steal my property, given the unreasonable time scale.

My feeling is that as they have not made any representation over the years re items stored outside they can't enforce their tort or whatever?

Does anyone have any useful inlut on this? There is a lot more detail but I think it would cloud the situation at this time - but happy to expand on facts as required.


Kind regards

 

[Newchodge]

Are the goods stored outside only in your rented parking space? If not I would say that they have a valid point. If you cannot return those goods into the barn, you are using more space than you have paid for.

 

[Mark T Jones]

The obvious first question here would relate to the terms of your lease.

Though as @Newchodge has alluded to, there may well be some 'plot creep', which they are completely right to address.

 

[Ozzy]

Having gone through a similar experience also with a farmer, it seems like if you have gone outside the contracted agreed space they have a point. I suspect that you are in a protected lease, they may want to have use of the facilty back, and this may be their opportunity to do so - still worth getting an aggricultural property solicitor involved just to look over the terms though to see if you have a counter. Probably not though, if they wish to use the land themselves.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

When you spoke to the farmer, what reason did they give for the action?

 

[Paul-59]

Hi all
Thanks for your replies.
The agreement is in the form of a craft workshop licence which is for 'comunal' space.
The space is in fact not comunal - it is mine to use as neccesary - which I now understand makes a difference.

In terms of 'plot creep' or whatever they have been OK with stuff outside when it suits them, now the wind has changed direction it is all a problem. I recently had a troubling interaction with a younger family member causing me to depart the situation to 'de-escalate' - probably breach of the peace.

The specific problem is that they have rented an area currently occupied by a vehicle to another tenant. The vehicle has been on-site for circa 14 years - time enough to notify me regarding plot creep. During this period I voluntarily relinquished a small unit without a rent reduction - just me playing the game.

Much of the material in the yard was removed to enable them to repair their own barn - a favout to them.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Is the space the vehicle is on part of your plot?

If the issue of the vehicle is enough to jeopardise your whole tenancy, maybe you need to make a call!

 

[fisicx]

How much are you prepared to spend to fight this?

If you removed everything that is under dispute you would be in a better position to argue your case.

However it seems they want you gone (probably because someone else will pay more rent than you) which means lawyers will be involved and could cost you a very large wodge to contest.

 

[Paul-59]

Hi all
Yes I could remove the car but the genie is well and truly out of the bottle now. They want to assert themselves and will keep pushing.

I am unable to remove the material from the yard (the material that has been no problem to anyone for years) as I don't have anywhere to take it and I am in poor physical health.

I am a member of the FSB who will advise re legalities. I understand the contract is not a 'licence' as they claim but a regular tenancy - which changes things.

I have requested a copy of the tenancy agreement / licence from their sol. I don't know if they are obliged to provide it. The farm isn't a safe place to be so I can't recover agreement from my office.

I will report back as I think this is quite interesting and a good example of how long-term, extensive goodwill on the part of a tenant can be thrown in their face when the wind changes direction.

Regards

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Definitely one for your solicitor.

I vaguely remember a solicitor once telling me that if something has been in place for a while it can be considered as an accepted adopted change to a contract, but this was some time ago and might not have any bearing on your situation.

I can recommend a solicitorif you don't find one on here. If you need access to recover your items like the original lease, consider asking for police presence.

---

 

[Paul-59]

Hi Lisa
Thank you for your advice.
Hopefully the FSB will deal with this. I had forgotten all about their legal services when I first posted on here...

I have requested a copy of their tenancy agreement from their sol. Do you know if they are obliged to provide documents they are relying on?

I think your advice re police presence is sound.

Many thanks

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

They want to assert themselves and will keep pushing.

Was the car on your agreed space or not?

 

[Gyumri]

It sounds like you have been relying on the generosity of the farmer to use some of the area outside the demised part of your tenancy agreement to store stuff. The fact that he may have turned a blind eye while your installed a lift and repaired the roof and said nothing about it for the last five years doesn't mean that you can expand your area to consider it as part of your premises.

So he is in his rights to call it a day and has given you adequate and proper legal notice to remove the stuff or else he will remove it and perhaps sell them or charge you for removing them.

However I would check the terms of your tenancy and whether you have the right to renew it because it seems you've invested quite a lot of time and money in improving the barn.

 

[Bobbo]

I have requested a copy of the tenancy agreement / licence from their sol. I don't know if they are obliged to provide it. The farm isn't a safe place to be so I can't recover agreement from my office.

I would find some burly mates, get down to your office and get your copy of the tenancy agreement.

If I was a solicitor tasked with getting you evicted from the premises the last thing I would do is give you a copy of the tenancy agreement, unless absolutely required to.

 

[jimbof]

The agreement is in the form of a craft workshop licence which is for 'comunal' space.
The space is in fact not comunal - it is mine to use as neccesary - which I now understand makes a difference.

I'm not a lawyer, but signing up for a "tenancy" on this basis would seem to have put you on shaky ground. It doesn't sound like a tenancy at all. It doesn't sound like you were signing to have exclusive access to the site, just access to a shared space with a parking space outside - like a membership of sorts - so I wonder how it fits into the protections you would have had under Sections 24-28 of the LTA1954 in a real tenancy (assuming that you hadn't given them away via declaration).

You really need that agreement in the hands of a property solicitor along with the details of the practices involved. I'd be surprised if a "helpline" type organisation is really going to cut it.

As an aside, if it were something you had a genuine tenancy for, I'd have though you'd have been liable for rates of one kind or another, and I imagine having paid them would have been useful in ascertaining the existence of the property and it being in your possession.

As I say not a lawyer, but it doesn't look good from the outside. And just considering the wider picture; if they really just want rid of you; what do you expect to achieve by sticking around if you're already afraid to be on site, even if the law were to be judged on your side? Sounds like a pretty unpredictable position to be in, and I honestly can't see any good outcome over the long term.

 

[fisicx]

Hi Lisa
I have requested a copy of their tenancy agreement from their sol. Do you know if they are obliged to provide documents they are relying on?

They may provide if you pay them. But there is no obligation as they are not your solicitors.

The likelihood right now is you will be locked out next month and lose all your equipment. They may even charge you to return the building to the condition it was in when you took over.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Through the various responses, we've kind of lost sight of what you actually want to achieve here - the personal seems to be over-riding the practical.

in legal terms 'Consideration cannot be past' - IE any favours you may have done will have no bearing on a contractual dispute.

I doubt that you have any inherited rights to outside space, but if you do, what do you actually plan to do? Leave stuff there for another 14 years? It clearly isn't of real value, why not get a scrappy to take it away (they may pay you?) - or just let them remove it.

If it does have value, them pay to have it properly stored elsewhere.

How much time/effort/money are you prepared to throw at this? What is your end game?

 

[Michael Loveridge]

Apologies for being rather late to the party, but I only tend to visit UKBF when I receive reminder emails.

It sounds to me like you have a business tenancy protected by the Landlord and Tenant Act 1954, even if the document you signed refers to it as a licence. It’s a common mistake for amateur landlords to enter into what they describe as licence agreements but which are legally tenancy agreements.

Assuming that the licence agreement contains a plan then it’s highly likely that the land outside the barn that you’ve been using is not included in the agreement. Nevertheless, if you have been using it exclusively for as long as you say you have it may well be that because the landlord knows you’re using the land and has accepted rent from you a tenancy has written in respect of that land.

As the personal relationship between you and the landlord has evidently deteriorated badly you need to decide whether you want to remain in occupation. If you do, then the situation needs to be regularised, and it should really be recorded in a new tenancy agreement.

If you don’t, then you can use the rights you have as a lever to extract compensation from the landlord for your vacating the property. Because you are protected by LTA 1954 he would almost certainly need to go through the procedure set out in the LTA, namely serving a section 25 notice, which means that you would be then entitled to a new lease as of right.

If he is able to prove that his need for the property is greater than yours then he would be legally obliged to pay you compensation based on the rateable value of the premises.

As others have said, you really need to take specific advice from a professional.

 

[Paul-59]

Hi all
First apologies for my absence from here for a while.

I am seeking to understand the legalities around some of the claims made by the oppositions solicitors.

I conclude that the agreement between me and landlord is a tenancy falling under LTA 54 and not a licence.

I have engaged lawyers through FSB - more on that process later...

1) Their solicitor (sol) claims that landlord (LL) can dispose of my property if not associated with my business requirements. For example they have sent o photo of my four post vehicle lift as an example of something they intend to dispose of. I personally undertake all vehicle maintenance which is funded by my Ltd Co - accounts to prove available going back decades. Is this a thing? If so is it a licence thing or a tenancy thing?

I have a 'workshop' which I built into the barn I rent. It is made of stirling board and measures 16' L X 11' W X 8'H. It has always been refered to as my 'workshop'. Their sol has renamed it 'small lockup' and states that they are going to dismantle it forthwith. It contains machine tools and a very substantial collection of tools for vehicle and boat maintenance.

Does anyone have any insight into this?

2) They removed two vehicles from site a while ago (I don't know when - they didn't notify me) - one of which is regulalry used and is fully road legal. Can they (legally) do that? I recovered vehicle yesterday.

3) The fact is that the current situation has developed over many years. The two cars removed from site have been there for well over a decade. The rent is up to date. The workshop was built twenty years ago. It seems to me that if they are happy to take rent for decades without a murmur of discontent at my actions they can't change the rules when it suits them - for reasons extraneous to business practices. I think the legal concept of promissory estoppel may come in here? LL has approved everything that has been done for the 23 years I have been on site.

I am interested to hear what you have to say - especially if this is your area of expertise - I don't need telling that I need a lawyer or similar. That is sorted - I want to understand the law so I can manage lawyers accordingly.
If you think lawyers don't need managing don't ever go into business, in fact don't leave the house.

 

[fisicx]

The primary issue here is their intent. You could easily go to the site tomorrow and discover the lockup has been dismantled and your 4 post lift up for sale on eBay. There isn’t much you can do to stop them without a court order. Which means getting your lawyer to get a shift on.

The legal precedence they use will depend on the lease and any other correspondence. If neither exist you may well struggle to prove you had permission to build anything.

 

[Paul-59]

I imagine this is why the concept of promissory estoppel exists.

I also think if they want to take action they can be asked to absolutely prove their position in law.

I am asking for advice from people who practice in this or related areas. I don't imagine this sort of thing is unusual so I conclude the knowledge is out there. Accessing that knowledge is the purpose for which forums exist.

 

[fisicx]

There are a couple of solicitors here but everything comes back to the lease. Without seeing the exact wording nobody can advise on the best course of action.

As an example the lease may define the area of the property but the car was parked outside the boundary and therefore not part of the tenancy agreement. The words in the lease is the only thing that matters.

I have a freehold and spend an inordinate amount of time fighting leaseholders who think the lease is some sort of arbitrary document. It isn’t. It’s the only document that matters.

 

[Paul-59]

Apparently the wording on whatever document is in dispute is limited in meaning. What happens 'on the ground' is what the law is interested in - day to day reality wins over clever contract writing.

I imagine LTA 54 was drawn up to protect tenants from crafty landlords who want the cash but not the liabilities and responsibilities - which are considerable under LTA 54.

The document in question is titled 'craft workshop licence' - however in practical terms licence simply means right of access. It falls apart in law when a tenant has sole occupancy - irrespective of how the document is titled and worded - or so I understand.

I am particularly interested in the principal of promissory estoppel - an interesting if abstract piece of law.

When I find myself up against this sort of thuggery - or indeed anything that grasps my interest I always seek to understand. Only by fully knowing what is going on can one strive efectively for the best outcome.

 

[fisicx]

No sure I agree with you but you appear to have a solution so not sure there is anything we can add. If your solicitor agrees promissory estoppel is a good defence then they will use that argument in court. It’s not something you can use to stop them knocking down your lockup.

You first need to get an injunction. Which means spending money.

 

[eteb3]

Apparently the wording on whatever document is in dispute is limited in meaning. What happens 'on the ground' is what the law is interested in - day to day reality wins over clever contract writing.

That is broadly correct.

Eg, if they have allowed you to keep things outside for a long time, that may be:
- variation of contract if it was a licence
- variation of lease if the agreement was a lease but not signed as a deed (likely, as they’re saying it’s a licence)
- variation of a deed of lease in certain circumstances (though rarer)
- acquisition of an interest in the land (eg equitable lease)

It will all depend on the detailed facts and their relationship with the agreement

Land law is gorgeously complicated. Throw in the agricultural angle and I’d suggest there’s next to nothing this board can help with at such a distance. But I’d love to find out how it goes.

One thing though: evidence is nine tenths of the law. The nicest legal arguments are nothing without it. If it’s your word against theirs that doesn’t make it a non-starter, but the more finely balanced the case, the more expensive it is to deal with

Licence means right of access

More significant, a licence is personal to you; a lease is in the land. Your rights are much stronger if you have a lease; and if you have exclusive possession you probably do. They may have let themselves in to try to show you don’t. You should be objecting in the correct legal form to the trespass

 

[eteb3]

Promissory estoppel:
A clear and unequivocal promise that strict legal rights will not be enforced + you change your position as a result of the promise + inequitable to allow farmer to go back on his promise.

He who comes to equity must come with clean hands: have you kept your bargain?
Delay defeats equity: how long have you known they intend to go back on their promise?

Full legal rights can be resumed by the promisor giving reasonable notice

 

[Paul-59]

Thank you for your reply and apologies for slow response.
I have been distracted from this by other business comitments and health issues - hospital visits etc.

The land lord sol is now splitting the property into the bit that I have a tenancy on (though not admitting as much) - which is my office - and the barn in which I have built a substantial workshop of 16' X 12' X 8'. They have re-named the workshop 'small lockup' which is hardly true. They allso claim workshop and vehicle lift (I undertake my own maintenance of vehicles and boat - funded by Ltd Co.) are not 'business related' and can therefore be disposed of.

Workshop structure, fittings (it is fully wired for power, light etc. Contains machine tools and hand tools with a value in the thousands) was paid for by my Ltd Co's.

They are threatening to dispose of above - sent a picture of my vehicle lift and intend to dismantle 'small lockup' - workshop as described above - in reality.

This is not helped by my having awful lawyers who were provided by my legal insurance...

Moving from this site to another will be a mamoth task. My physical health is poor though improving.

I am hoping we can negotiate say a years notice, to apply across the site and compensation for what will be an expensive exercise.

Note: the 'workshop' is not a commercial workshop, it is just used from time to time for vehicle and boat repairs - I don't repair other people's stuff, so it doesn't generate revenue directly, it saves money on garage bills and boatyard bills.

Kind regards and sorry for the deluge of facts.

 

[fisicx]

Go find and pay for a commercial lawyer. This is going to get nasty and expensive.

 

[Paul-59]

Taking you earlier post re: Promissory estoppel.

Does this still stand if the revised conditions are not documented - but are simply an extension of existing practice?

An example would be that I have stored outside my workshop some 'chattels' - particularly a couple of stainless steel tables on which I place tools/parts when maintaining a vehicle in the yard.

Tables have been in same spot for a few years, let's say five. Landlord has never in this period complained verbally or in writing about presence of tables. Thier place in the yard has become a fact of life. Except that now they have thrown toys from pram they are a problem which they intend to seize and dispose of.

Does their position stand up in law?

Regards

 

[Paul-59]

Another fact that occurs to me.

The units on the farm have never been registered as commercial units - no business rates ever paid.

A search reveals no commercial units at the farm postcode.

When I took the place 23 years ago I was told they had an 'arrangement' with council and that I should essentially keep my nose out.

Regards

 

[eteb3]

Taking you earlier post re: Promissory estoppel.

Does this still stand if the revised conditions are not documented - but are simply an extension of existing practice?

Promissory estoppel:
A

1. clear and
2. unequivocal
3. promise

that strict legal rights will not be enforced + you change your position as a result of the promise + inequitable to allow farmer to go back on his promise.

Landlord has never in this period complained verbally or in writing

You have your answer: no.

I would be looking at variation of contract (lease or licence, either way) by conduct and acquiescence.

Equitable rights in the “small lockup” in the alternative - ie despite lack of contractual right, it would be inequitable to evict you.

Do you say the vehicle lift is used for business purposes or not? (Do you take payment for the work? Alternatively are they vehicles used in your business ?)

 

[eteb3]

Tables have been in same spot for a few years, let's say five. Landlord has never in this period complained verbally or in writing about presence of tables. Thier place in the yard has become a fact of life.

that sounds like the basis of a good claim to me. The question is, what cause of action, and can you evidence what’s required. You need a commercial property lawyer

 

[WaveJumper]

Well its been mentioned several times "you need a commercial lawyer" and that route will be quite interesting when they get down to the nitty gritty of what if anything the "farm" has planning permissions for.

Unfortunately I expect this to get quite expensive, pretty quick and begs the question is it cheeper to up sticks and find somewhere else

 

[eteb3]

no business rates ever paid.

Have you ever paid business rates? If not , in equity that may make it hard to argue you are the occupier, because every occupier is liable to pay, and he who comes to equity must come with clean hands.

But often different areas of law operate independently : eg, they can give you an enforceable personal right to use the land, even if to do so brings a tax liability they mean to evade

 

[Paul-59]

Hi and thanks for your input.

I have the only key to the workshop. Workshop building is located within the barn.

I do not have only key to the barn. About 2/3 of barn is apportioned to me, the other 1/3 is full of farm junk - nothing to do with me.

There is no physical barrier between what is agreed as 'mine' and what is 'theirs'. However it is understood (not documented) that my section is mina and mine alone.

The workshop and vehicle lift do not generate revenue by providing sservices to the public. They reduce expenses by allowing me (in the guise of my Ltd Co) to maintain my own kit and thereby avoid garage/boatyard costs. I haven't paid a garage to service/repair a vehicle for decades. Vehicle repairs funded by Ltd Co.

Variation of contract (lease or licence, either way) by conduct and acquiescence. sounds interesting and at first blush close to the facts 'on the ground'. Can you tell me more?
Regards

 

[Newchodge]

The workshop and vehicle lift do not generate revenue by providing sservices to the public. They reduce expenses by allowing me (in the guise of my Ltd Co) to maintain my own kit and thereby avoid garage/boatyard costs. I haven't paid a garage to service/repair a vehicle for decades. Vehicle repairs funded by Ltd Co.

Is it used only for your own kit or is it also used for kit used in your business?

 

[Paul-59]

Cars registered to me, all costs are covered by business (proof of this going back decades)'

Boat 'belongs' to Ltd Co. - All costs funded by Ltd Co.

95% of workshop activity is business related. At this moment the boats heater is on one bench and the autopilot is on the other. Major work has been carried out on vehicles/boat.

Land Rover Defender - new chassis circa 2021 to replace corroded original, Routine servicing and MOT prep.
VW Golf head gasket replacement. Replacement of chassis compnents. MOT prep + running repairs.

Boat - Repairs to rig components requiring use of lathe and milling machine. Two compnents refurbished to better than new. List price £600 ea...
Refurbishment of raw water pump - has been done twice in my ownership of vessel. New pump probably circa £500.

In all cases many minor repairs are also executed in workshop. Furthermore significant and 'free of charge' repairs to landlords barn undertaken as gesture of goodwill / relationship building...

Workshop is not a 'hobbyists den', it has a pivotal role in reducing costs and enabling timely repairs.

Regards

 

[fisicx]

@Paul-59 it makes little difference what opinions are offered here. If you don’t employ the services of a suitable lawyer you could well lose everything. They will go to court and will win because they have a lawyer who is better than you are presenting a case.

 

[Paul-59]

Per my earlier post - I have lawyers appointed by legal insurance.

Lawyers slow to respond and too keen to adopt the other parties viewpoint.

This is difficult because I need to present a sound argument to my lawyers to extract what I want - which is a muscular - fact-based argument to counter the other parties rather imaginative take on the relevent law.

I don't want to spend money on lawyers unless essential because I have a workshop to move - which will be a huge and expensive task.

In short I need to understand this in order to manage my lawyers, in fact I would go as far as to say that I have a duty to myself to understand in order to enable best outcome.

Last year I dealt with some considerable unpleasantness by taking on board the arguments and robustly responding to their similarly fanciful attempts at intimidation. I achieved an entirely satisfactory result. You will find it on this website.

These things aren't settled on the law alone. A cohesive sound argument delivered robustly works.

Regards

 

[Newchodge]

Cars registered to me, all costs are covered by business (proof of this going back decades)'

Boat 'belongs' to Ltd Co. - All costs funded by Ltd Co.

95% of workshop activity is business related. At this moment the boats heater is on one bench and the autopilot is on the other. Major work has been carried out on vehicles/boat.

Land Rover Defender - new chassis circa 2021 to replace corroded original, Routine servicing and MOT prep.
VW Golf head gasket replacement. Replacement of chassis compnents. MOT prep + running repairs.

Boat - Repairs to rig components requiring use of lathe and milling machine. Two compnents refurbished to better than new. List price £600 ea...
Refurbishment of raw water pump - has been done twice in my ownership of vessel. New pump probably circa £500.

In all cases many minor repairs are also executed in workshop. Furthermore significant and 'free of charge' repairs to landlords barn undertaken as gesture of goodwill / relationship building...

Workshop is not a 'hobbyists den', it has a pivotal role in reducing costs and enabling timely repairs.

Regards

That doesn't answer my question. Were any of the vehicles used in your business?