Tradesmen’s rights to charge for delays

[Glowworm51]

We recently appointed a fitter to fit our new kitchen. We had known the fitter’s wife for many years and were happy to trust in her recommendation of her husband and not ask for any other quotes. The quote we received lacked any detail and there was no contractual agreement. We purchased the new kitchen from a diy supplier. The fitter was extremely helpful in advising us with the design of the kitchen. He also undertook some building, plumbing and electrical work (all of which were included in the quote but not in any detail). There were a small number of other bits of work he did which were not included in the quote. I told him that we would be happy to pay for these if he let us know how much.
The fitter did an excellent job and we had an an extremely good working relationship with him. We did have some quality issues with some of the kitchen units and the replacement of these took a few days. This did not unduly cause the fitter any significant delay as he was able to get on with other work in the kitchen. There was no indication that he was under any time pressure as he often turned up late and didn’t make any attempt to make up the time. We were quite accepting and relaxed about this.
Towards the end of the work and over a weekend when we were away, the fitter sent me a text detailing a number of additional charges for the delays caused by the delivery of the defective units. These amounted to £450. When the original delivery was made, some of the larger units were mistakenly placed in our garage prior to installation rather than in the kitchen. It had taken the supplier’s delivery team of 2 men less than an hour to deliver all the units. The fitter charged us an additional £200 to get help with moving the larger units into the kitchen. I had offered to help with the lifting but he said not to worry as he would get someone else to help him. He gave no indication that this would cost any extra.
I have paid the original quote in full and all the additional charges despite the fact that there is some snagging work we have been waiting for over 2 months to be done. I realise much of this is our fault for being too naive and relying on goodwill and and trust, but would be interested to know if the fitter was in his rights to charge us for what he called the delays.

 

[Newchodge]

We recently appointed a fitter to fit our new kitchen. We had known the fitter’s wife for many years and were happy to trust in her recommendation of her husband and not ask for any other quotes. The quote we received lacked any detail and there was no contractual agreement. We purchased the new kitchen from a diy supplier. The fitter was extremely helpful in advising us with the design of the kitchen. He also undertook some building, plumbing and electrical work (all of which were included in the quote but not in any detail). There were a small number of other bits of work he did which were not included in the quote. I told him that we would be happy to pay for these if he let us know how much.
The fitter did an excellent job and we had an an extremely good working relationship with him. We did have some quality issues with some of the kitchen units and the replacement of these took a few days. This did not unduly cause the fitter any significant delay as he was able to get on with other work in the kitchen. There was no indication that he was under any time pressure as he often turned up late and didn’t make any attempt to make up the time. We were quite accepting and relaxed about this.
Towards the end of the work and over a weekend when we were away, the fitter sent me a text detailing a number of additional charges for the delays caused by the delivery of the defective units. These amounted to £450. When the original delivery was made, some of the larger units were mistakenly placed in our garage prior to installation rather than in the kitchen. It had taken the supplier’s delivery team of 2 men less than an hour to deliver all the units. The fitter charged us an additional £200 to get help with moving the larger units into the kitchen. I had offered to help with the lifting but he said not to worry as he would get someone else to help him. He gave no indication that this would cost any extra.
I have paid the original quote in full and all the additional charges despite the fact that there is some snagging work we have been waiting for over 2 months to be done. I realise much of this is our fault for being too naive and relying on goodwill and and trust, but would be interested to know if the fitter was in his rights to charge us for what he called the delays.

He is certainly entitled to charge you for paying for help to move larger items. As to the est, probably. You have paid, so there is no chance now of arguing any part of the charge was unreasonable.

 

[BubbaWY]

Id say no to paying for any delays...unless there was some form of contract you signed which stated any delays would be chargable. Any tradesman understands things dont always go smoothly.

But youve done the worst thing possible. Paid in full before any defects have been put right.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

No proper contract = no/little right to complain.

If you are happy with the kitchen, pay the money and move on.

 

[Glowworm51]

He is certainly entitled to charge you for paying for help to move larger items. As to the est, probably. You have paid, so there is no chance now of arguing any part of the charge was unreasonable.

Thank you for your reply. I am not intending trying to get any money back but simply trying to establish the principle for future reference. As far as charging for the moving of larger items is concerned, two points: 1) I offered to help myself but he declined without saying he would charge us for it 2) he charged £200 for using a young lad. The move took about 20 minutes.

 

[BubbaWY]

Thank you for your reply. I am not intending trying to get any money back but simply trying to establish the principle for future reference. As far as charging for the moving of larger items is concerned, two points: 1) I offered to help myself but he declined without saying he would charge us for it 2) he charged £200 for using a young lad. The move took about 20 minutes.

That is taking the Michael.

 

[Newchodge]

Thank you for your reply. I am not intending trying to get any money back but simply trying to establish the principle for future reference. As far as charging for the moving of larger items is concerned, two points: 1) I offered to help myself but he declined without saying he would charge us for it 2) he charged £200 for using a young lad. The move took about 20 minutes.

There were 2 people doing the move. It is not a kitchen fitter's job to move the materials around the house. The move may have taken 20 minutes, but how much time did the second person spend getting to the job, waiting around and getting home? The fact you offered to help is irrelevant. Allowing an untrained, unknown person to assist may have negated his insurance.

 

[BubbaWY]

There were 2 people doing the move. It is not a kitchen fitter's job to move the materials around the house. The move may have taken 20 minutes, but how much time did the second person spend getting to the job, waiting around and getting home? The fact you offered to help is irrelevant. Allowing an untrained, unknown person to assist may have negated his insurance.

I dont think its unreasonable to expect a kitchen fitter to move the things he is fitting around the house (within reason).

 

[Mark T Jones]

Thank you for your reply. I am not intending trying to get any money back but simply trying to establish the principle for future reference. As far as charging for the moving of larger items is concerned, two points: 1) I offered to help myself but he declined without saying he would charge us for it 2) he charged £200 for using a young lad. The move took about 20 minutes.

The principal for future reference is that both/all parties need to communicate clearly, starting with a detailed schedule of work.

A competent or experienced trades person will insist on this. The biggest & most frustrating source of cost & time over-runs on fit out projects is 'can you just'. Constant, small changes throughout the process. It's frustrating, it's also carte blache for them to add costs.

 

[MJD12]

I dont think its unreasonable to expect a kitchen fitter to move the things he is fitting around the house (within reason).

Two men taking time out of their day for 20 minutes - most trades people would charge for this on the bigger jobs. If the fitter has travelled to you to find out the materials are not there then this would also be a justifiable charge.

Having said this, a contract that details all of this should have been agreed beforehand. And if you're unsure of the additional charges there's no harm in asking for clarity/justification, don't just pay up.

 

[Glowworm51]

There were 2 people doing the move. It is not a kitchen fitter's job to move the materials around the house. The move may have taken 20 minutes, but how much time did the second person spend getting to the job, waiting around and getting home? The fact you offered to help is irrelevant. Allowing an untrained, unknown person to assist may have negated his insurance.

There were 2 people doing the move. It is not a kitchen fitter's job to move the materials around the house. The move may have taken 20 minutes, but how much time did the second person spend getting to the job, waiting around and getting home? The fact you offered to help is irrelevant. Allowing an untrained, unknown person to assist may have negated his insurance.

Accepted, but surely this should have been clearly explained at the time and an estimate of cost provided?

 

[Mark T Jones]

Accepted, but surely this should have been clearly explained at the time and an estimate of cost provided?

Communication is a 2 way process.

 

[Onthebrightside]

I had a contract and a spreadsheet detailing everything when we had our kitchen extension built.

The builder often turned up late, or not at all on some days.

I'd done the quotes on price (not day rate) and split the job up into the sections with tranches of payment on completion of each section. I made sure the final section was worth at least £15,000 (the whole job was £230k).

Over the course of the job he put his non appearance at site down to, problems with his wife, kids, his dog, school meetings, meetings with other clients, van repairs, estate agent meetings, dentist appointments. Honestly, we were laughing.

Needless to say, to get the job finished he had to do some long days and turn up on site day, including a couple of weekends. At the end he tried to charge c£10k extra for 'extra days'. I advised the job had been quote on price, not day rate, he was running late because he'd spent so long not turning up on site and if he wanted the remaining £15k he need to carry out my snagging list Job done!

Do this:

- Do the job on a price rate, not a day rate.
- Clarify everything you want doing in writing and get each person quoting to fill it out. If they don't, fill it out for them, email it to them and get a response from them clarifying they agree it's right.
- Pay in stages (even if you just split it into quarters and pay each quarter once the work in that quarter is done.
- State the last quarter is going to be paid after any snagging list is agreed and complete.

Delays always happen in building - I don't know anyone who charges for delays unless they have a written contract stating they are allowed to do so. Normally that's because they've invested heavily in materials from the outset and if they can't finish and get paid they could be in debt when their suppliers ask for payment. That's why it's good to break it up onto stages. Good for them, good for you.

 

[MJD12]

Delays always happen in building - I don't know anyone who charges for delays unless they have a written contract stating they are allowed to do so.

I agree with your post, and agree with the above if you've purchased the materials through the fitter. My post was on the assumption the OP ordered materials themself separately making them responsible. I know many that would charge in this scenario, if the project schedule is increased. But again it all depends on the scenario, length, contract.

 

[Newchodge]

Accepted, but surely this should have been clearly explained at the time and an estimate of cost provided?

Yes, and if it wasn't provided, surely the client would have asked about it?

 

[fisicx]

I had a contract and a spreadsheet detailing everything when we had our kitchen extension built.
I made sure the final section was worth at least £15,000 (the whole job was £230k).

That's more than our whole house is worth!

 

[Onthebrightside]

That's more than our whole house is worth!

Inheritance funds from relatives we pooled together to make our home future proof for wheelchair access, wet room etc.

 

[Gecko001]

Sometimes small builders and sub-contractors at the end of jobs see that they are not getting as much out of the job as they first thought. It could be because of the customer messed them about by changing things or because they just did not not quote enough in the first place. They then mess the customer about by not devoting 100% of the time they have to the job and finishing late, or try to get some extra money by charging extras. It is perhaps not contracturally right to do this, but that is the way they look at things.

I am not a small builder or sub-contractor, but I have been around enough building sites and have heard enough builders talking amoung themselves to know their attitude. They talk about "no beef in that job", or "I was glad to get away from that job with at least some profit" etc. My guess is that in this job they probably did not quote enough, so you probably did OK regarding the final price.

 

[Onthebrightside]

Sometimes small builders and sub-contractors at the end of jobs see that they are not getting as much out of the job as they first thought. It could be because of the customer messed them about by changing things or because they just did not not quote enough in the first place. They then mess the customer about by not devoting 100% of the time they have to the job and finishing late, or try to get some extra money by charging extras. It is perhaps not contracturally right to do this, but that is the way they look at things.

I am not a small builder or sub-contractor, but I have been around enough building sites and have heard enough builders talking amoung themselves to know their attitude. They talk about "no beef in that job", or "I was glad to get away from that job with at least some profit" etc. My guess is that in this job they probably did not quote enough, so you probably did OK regarding the final price.

Agree with you, we were a roofing company. It's either a tardy quoting, an inability to carry out tasks (so it takes them longer to bodge it). We've seen it all and heard it all, which is why we did a spreadsheet detailing what we wanted done, the materials required and no. of days required.

To be fair, we had our builder buy many of the materials as he started and we either stored them in house, shed or asked the suppliers (for instance the tile company) to hold them in their warehouse until we needed them. That way neither you nor the builder is likely to loose out because of increases in materials costs.

 

[mmandcoroofing]

Bottom line is that if there was no agreement for additional charges prior to the work being carried out then you shouldn't be obliged to pay. This is covered in both the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 and the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

You've already paid, so probably easiest just to leave it and take it as a lesson learnt.

Matt