Feel bad on sacking someone

samuel5

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Apr 25, 2010
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Hi all

Took on a nice Ukrainian lady on for a customer service position about 2 months ago but things are just not working out.

She is not picking it up and is making the same mistakes over and over again.

I need to let her go but I will feel awful as she is very nice and has a mortgage to pay.

I could potentially ask her to change role and give her a position in our warehouse but it would have to be less pay.

I have not got the heart to sack her but my business will suffer if I don’t.

Any advice is appreciated, thank you
 

WaveJumper

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    Unfortunately on the face of it looks like you need to let her go especially if you feel any further training is just not going to help. I would suggest for the future you need to look at your own recruitment process's have you really got this buttoned down ie was she really the ideal person in the first place.

    Its always a good idea to have very clear goals written down on who, why, what be very clear in your own mind what your looking for and never take the best of a worst bunch, keep looking till you find the right fit .......

    Sorry not teaching you to suck eggs but interviewing and recruitment needs carefully planning and thought in my book or you end up in a situation such as yours not only feeling awful but the harsh reality is times money and now the process has to start again

    Best of luck in dealing with this but deal with it head on
     
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    Byzantium

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    Unfortunately on the face of it looks like you need to let her go especially if you feel any further training is just not going to help. I would suggest for the future you need to look at your own recruitment process's have you really got this buttoned down ie was she really the ideal person in the first place.

    Its always a good idea to have very clear goals written down on who, why, what be very clear in your own mind what your looking for and never take the best of a worst bunch, keep looking till you find the right fit .......

    Sorry not teaching you to suck eggs but interviewing and recruitment needs carefully planning and thought in my book or you end up in a situation such as yours not only feeling awful but the harsh reality is times money and now the process has to start again

    Best of luck in dealing with this but deal with it head on

    If you have been recruiting in the last 2 years you will be absolutely aware that you cannot find good staff at decent levels of pay, even if you are paying above what you think it top end.

    The government has given half the country a fistful of benefits so grotesque that they have no intention of working which simply pushes up salaries and sadly means that unsuitable people are being hired because companies simply cannot afford to continually pay more and get less.

    The answer, if there is one, is to go without the individual and share that responsibility between others and incentivise them to take on the extra work.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    If you have been recruiting in the last 2 years you will be absolutely aware that you cannot find good staff at decent levels of pay, even if you are paying above what you think it top end.

    The government has given half the country a fistful of benefits so grotesque that they have no intention of working which simply pushes up salaries and sadly means that unsuitable people are being hired because companies simply cannot afford to continually pay more and get less.

    The answer, if there is one, is to go without the individual and share that responsibility between others and incentivise them to take on the extra work.
    It's also that there are a lot of people with money in the bank after Covid (they were being paid but could not spend it), plus a lot of people got used to not working and retired early.

    If the lady could do the warehouse job why not ask her if she wants that ?
    It's entirely possible she knows she's not hacking it in the current position, might she even be relieved at the chance of another easier job ?
     
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    samuel5

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    It's also that there are a lot of people with money in the bank after Covid (they were being paid but could not spend it), plus a lot of people got used to not working and retired early.

    If the lady could do the warehouse job why not ask her if she wants that ?
    It's entirely possible she knows she's not hacking it in the current position, might she even be relieved at the chance of another easier job ?
    We do need an extra warehouse operative and maybe I can find her some extra tasks to keep to salary the same
     
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    samuel5

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    Sorry not teaching you to suck eggs but interviewing and recruitment needs carefully planning and thought in my book or you end up in a situation such as yours not only feeling awful but the harsh reality is times money and now the process has to start again

    I know I need to improve this, which is why I feel it is my fault for taking her on in the first place
     
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    tony84

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    Ive been sacked from plenty of jobs over the years, some I knew were coming and I deserved, other times it was a bit of a surprise.

    It is what it is, people get fired all the time. I have had to get rid of 2-3 people over the years.

    Do it in the morning, ideally on a monday, agree to pay them for the rest of the week (it made me feel less guilty) and provide a positive reference. My view on that was ultimately they came in, they had the right attitude and were reliable its just that the job was not for them.
     
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    IanSuth

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    I know I need to improve this, which is why I feel it is my fault for taking her on in the first place
    What is she not picking up (as in what skill does she not have) ?

    Find a test that measures that

    Test applicants next time

    The cost of a test (ours are £5-20 per completion) is massively covered by the wasted wages (and missed profit) of the wrong person in the job.

    We may not have a test that measures the skill you need, but someone will, or you can create one. Going off gut instinct (which is what an interview is a lot of the time) is not very objective
     
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    tony84

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    What is she not picking up (as in what skill does she not have) ?

    Find a test that measures that

    Test applicants next time

    The cost of a test (ours are £5-20 per completion) is massively covered by the wasted wages (and missed profit) of the wrong person in the job.

    We may not have a test that measures the skill you need, but someone will, or you can create one. Going off gut instinct (which is what an interview is a lot of the time) is not very objective
    Is there one for common sense?
     
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    Porky

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    @samuel5
    Try and remember that the employees are NOT your friends, honestly they wont give a toss about you. No matter how well you look after them if they think something else comes along that's better, they are off and wont give you a second thought.

    If your business runs into trouble they can move onto another job, not so easy for you. Are they going to pay your rent/mortgage then? You must think of you and your family first. If this employee is not doing the job required, cut it, you are not a charity. Please remember that.

    I was actually a lot like you at one point. There was a competitor in my area where the CEO was a first rate C U next Tuesday, he maximised the output from his staff and his staff hated him, many would apply to me as they hated working there. Meanwhile i thought it doesn't have to be that way. I was nice to my staff, really flexible, family first policy, paid them well gave them bonuses, even gave the mums that had children selection boxes at Christmas, if they needed time out for something no problem etc etc. My competitors business financially was significantly more profitable than mine but i didn't mind that. I was happy "doing good" in my mind and rubbing along.

    Trouble is that staff now in 75% of cases actually see that kindness as a weakness they can exploit, whatever you give them, they will want to take that little bit more from you, slowly more and more. Over period i eventually got totally hacked off that some would keep trying it on (oh porky will be ok with that wont be a problem) i paid staff in full if they were off sick not SSP, one employee had treatment and time off for cancer and i kept her on full pay, she had mortgage etc and she was returning, she was treated and got better but when she came back she did a couple of weeks and then decided she was going to another company for better prospects, so much for loyalty. In another case rather than sack someone materially not performing i was nice, discussed it, they realised they were well out of their depth, I offered them a good reference to help find work elsewhere, called it redundant rather than being sacked again to help them get employed elsewhere, next thing they trying it on for more compensation via ACAS. Had i been a total bs'tard and sacked them immediately it would have been cheaper. I can give you numerous other examples similar where my good faith was never returned. Ultimately i came to the realisation that being nice actually counts for sh@t you will just get abused.

    It doesn't change who i am now and its a shame for the handful of decent workers that its been spoilt by the majority of "takers" but it is how it is. Sad indictment of society in general but things have changed, attitudes have changed, staff no longer want to prove what they can do and be rewarded, they expect to be rewarded on what they might be able to do and in majority of cases value there ability way way higher than anything like where they are. It is what it is.

    So i feel I'm qualified in saying, if employees are not performing, just cut them. In this situation, its good of you to offer an alternative in packing but ask yourself this "would this person be your first choice when recruiting someone in packing?" if there are fitter more able workers applying for that role you should give them the job, not someone just because you feel sorry for them. As for making up the pay difference with other work are you offering that to anyone else? because if you are not the other staff could claim being unfairly treated? have you considered that.?

    I have been there and worn the t-shirt, in one example i gave someone something like four different roles and they were dire at every one of them ultimately they went and i regretted not sorting it sooner.

    Hope my post albeit long helps you reflect, seriously you need Rhino skin in business, you need to harden up as i fear you will be taken advantage of for sure.

    Take care, Good luck
     
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    MikeJ

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    I need to let her go but I will feel awful as she is very nice and has a mortgage to pay.

    I could potentially ask her to change role and give her a position in our warehouse but it would have to be less pay.

    I have not got the heart to sack her but my business will suffer if I don’t.

    Any advice is appreciated, thank you

    This seems to be your answer. She's probably aware she's not up to the job, and is worried she's going to be sacked. Offering her an alternative would at least keep the wolf from the door.
     
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    Byzantium

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    Ive been sacked from plenty of jobs over the years, some I knew were coming and I deserved, other times it was a bit of a surprise.

    It is what it is, people get fired all the time. I have had to get rid of 2-3 people over the years.

    Do it in the morning, ideally on a monday, agree to pay them for the rest of the week (it made me feel less guilty) and provide a positive reference. My view on that was ultimately they came in, they had the right attitude and were reliable its just that the job was not for them.

    Yep, send the useless lump down the road to the next poor sod with his small business on the back of your fraudulent good reference and make his life a bloody misery.

    If you cannot give an honest reference then simply refuse to give one. A fraudulent reference harms the next guy and could come back and haunt you.
     
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    ekm

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    "Do it in the morning, ideally on a monday, agree to pay them for the rest of the week"

    Nitpick I admit - Are we talking gross misconduct here? I'd like to think otherwise if its just not working out that's more of a contractual obligation than a favour to make you feel less guilty?
     
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    tony84

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    Yep, send the useless lump down the road to the next poor sod with his small business on the back of your fraudulent good reference and make his life a bloody misery.

    If you cannot give an honest reference then simply refuse to give one. A fraudulent reference harms the next guy and could come back and haunt you.
    Thats not really the case.
    Being bad at a job does not make you bad at every job.

    I was sacked by Royal mail on a data entry job! I was sacked because I was constantly late... In a month it totalled about 2 minutes as they monitored you to the second (it worked out at 15 seconds in every 8 hour shift). The problem was everyone went on a 15 minute break at the same time and there was only one vending machine.

    I was sacked from other jobs also. But I was also promoted in some jobs.

    If someone comes in, works hard and tries, why should they not be given a good reference? It could be your training, it could be the systems, it could be that something in that role just does not click.

    Obviously if someone comes in with the wrong attitude, is always late then yes I agree. But that does not appear to be the case here.
     
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    DerekGM6

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    "Try and remember that the employees are NOT your friends, honestly they wont give a toss about you. No matter how well you look after them if they think something else comes along that's better, they are off and wont give you a second thought."

    Unfortunately this is true. I have been employing people for fifty years and I have always tried to be a good employer, sometimes to my detriment. It is not easy laying people off when business takes a nosedive, or because they are not performing as well as one expected. I found to my cost that one cannot be too soft, one factor in the closing of my first business in manufacturing was that I tried to keep my staff employed when times were bad, and ended up with too much money in stock and consequent cash flow problems.

    On the whole I think I have looked after my employees and my home is full of presents from them on major occasions such as Christmas. However when push comes to shove their own interests come first, and it is unwise to think that they will stay loyal, especially if your business is going through a hard time. The worst thing is that some of them, but by no means all, think that the employer should carry out his/her moral and legal obligations to the letter, but they can flout them. For example instead of giving proper notice they simply just don't turn up. Unfortunately as the years have gone by, employment legislation has made it more and more difficult to retain hiring flexibility. It is easy to take someone on, not so easy to terminate it. I think twice before employing anybody now. In fact even taking someone on is fraught with danger lest you get accused of discrimination etc.
     
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    Mr D

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    If you have been recruiting in the last 2 years you will be absolutely aware that you cannot find good staff at decent levels of pay, even if you are paying above what you think it top end.

    The government has given half the country a fistful of benefits so grotesque that they have no intention of working which simply pushes up salaries and sadly means that unsuitable people are being hired because companies simply cannot afford to continually pay more and get less.

    The answer, if there is one, is to go without the individual and share that responsibility between others and incentivise them to take on the extra work.

    Ever tried living on benefits? While I have seen grotesque used to describe them the general consensus is they are too low. Grotesque as in how bad they are.
     
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    Byzantium

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    Ever tried living on benefits? While I have seen grotesque used to describe them the general consensus is they are too low. Grotesque as in how bad they are.

    Woe is me, I have never worked, never paid into the system, never contributed to the economy nor do I ever have any intention of doing so but I want my benefits, my free housing, my HNS and my cash.

    Frankly, benefits need to be withdrawn and cut back to bare subsistence levels and that would force the workshy and layabouts into work or else yes, they would find it near impossible to live and benefits would be an absolute bottom level safety net, not a career option like it is today which needs to be funded by people like me.
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    Woe is me, I have never worked, never paid into the system, never contributed to the economy nor do I ever have any intention of doing so but I want my benefits, my free housing, my HNS and my cash.

    Frankly, benefits need to be withdrawn and cut back to bare subsistence levels and that would force the workshy and layabouts into work or else yes, they would find it near impossible to live and benefits would be an absolute bottom level safety net, not a career option like it is today which needs to be funded by people like me.
    I am quite right wing but you are a fruit cake with a lack of understanding

    The current administration have already done this sadly they attacked the disabled and genuine vulnerable people that needed the help.

    Do you expect these people to just starve and then stop breathing
    Ironically the government at the moment have a lot of support from people like you despite the fact that these supporters are just a couple of months salary away from homelessness

    Turkeys voting for Christmas
     
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    Woe is me, I have never worked, never paid into the system, never contributed to the economy nor do I ever have any intention of doing so but I want my benefits, my free housing, my HNS and my cash.

    Frankly, benefits need to be withdrawn and cut back to bare subsistence levels and that would force the workshy and layabouts into work or else yes, they would find it near impossible to live and benefits would be an absolute bottom level safety net, not a career option like it is today which needs to be funded by people like me.
    Jacob Marley sends his regards.
     
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    DerekGM6

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    Jacob Marley sends his regards.
    I like to think that I am as compassionate as they come but anybody who thinks that benefits are too low really needs a reality check. I would have thought that people on here would know full well that money does not grow on trees. Yes there needs to be a welfare safety net for those in unfortunate circumstances but it has got completely out of hand. I have come across a number of young people in their 20s and 30s recently and only one of them has a proper job -my one employee. The others are all managing to get along on a diet of universal credit, PIP, and goodness knows what else. One of them, a young girl in her twenties claims to suffer from mental health issues and has been given a car worth £25k courtesy of you and me. She hasn't even passed her driving test ffs.

    Something else that few people seem to take into account is that benefits are tax free, so a person in full time work needs to earn more like £140 (at a guess) to end up with a net £100 handout. No wonder we read of families with half a dozen kids getting annual benefits worth the equivalent of a £30k, £40k, £50k a year job.

    And the loss to the economy doesn't stop at hard working people being taxed to the hilt to pay for all this nauseating largesse. People at home suffering from obesity, alcohol and drug addiction out of boredom and tattoos due to "child poverty" could be contributing to the economy by actually doing something. You know, like working in factories, like most ordinary people used to do before we collectively lost our marbles.
     
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    ekm

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    I wouldn't say they were too high - I ran myself through a checker to see what I'd be eligible for last night should my own circumstances prevent me from working, needless to say if I want to get anything I want done in life I'd better keep working. I couldn't survive on what I'm entitled to and if I forced a survival on it, it would be an existence.

    The issues raised above seem to be side issues rather than a failure of the benefit amount - for example, if people are 'lazy' and just don't want to work, that's a society issue - we shouldn't reduce support from people that need to punish those that don't. Same with the car - no idea how she's got a car, but surely that's an error of the system if she can't even use it (out of interest did she accept it?). I won't comment on the 'claims to suffer from mental health issues' as these can be virtually invisible at times and become life impacting/threatening at the speed of a typical swing in mood - you can be the most capable person on a good day and be completely wrecked careerwise/opportunity wise because of that occasional bad day as well as all the other things falling under the umbrella.

    The system does get abused, probably not as much as we'd assume though - and like most government systems it really can be argued whether its fit for purpose in some respects because as you'd expect it's badly thought out and all that, but for those that need it, the support levels really isn't a job alternative.
     
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    Newchodge

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    Frankly, benefits need to be withdrawn and cut back to bare subsistence levels and that would force the workshy and layabouts into work or else yes, they would find it near impossible to live and benefits would be an absolute bottom level safety net, not a career option like it is today which needs to be funded by people like me.
    You really have no idea. Benefits are already below bare subsistence levels, can be withdrawn for the slightest reason, like failing to attend an appointmemt because you were unconscious in hospital following an RTA and those on benefits find it near impossible to live, indeed many die from poverty on them. Perhaps your name should rflect your ideas - Byzantian?
     
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    thetiger2015

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    I like to think that I am as compassionate as they come but anybody who thinks that benefits are too low really needs a reality check. I would have thought that people on here would know full well that money does not grow on trees. Yes there needs to be a welfare safety net for those in unfortunate circumstances but it has got completely out of hand. I have come across a number of young people in their 20s and 30s recently and only one of them has a proper job -my one employee. The others are all managing to get along on a diet of universal credit, PIP, and goodness knows what else.

    .....because they can't just take ANY job. To do a 'job' you have to match the skill set required by the employer PLUS if you put a job advert out, you'll get 30 applicants. They have a 1 in 30 chance of getting that one job, 24 of them won't even get to an interview, they have to wait for the next job to come up that is within a commutable distance and matches their skills/employment experience.

    In the north of england, the chances of getting a profitable job is reduced even further, as there are simply not enough employers with enough vacancies. If you go on one of the job sites and say 'oh look, there's 30,000 jobs, why aren't they all filled blah blah' because 30,000 jobs require 30,000 different skill sets/personalities/locations. Also, not all jobs advertised are equal. Some are part time, some are temporary, some require temporary relocation for a contracted time, some are just terribly paid jobs that will leave you depressed.

    Have you seen property rental prices, £800 p/month for a 1 bed flat? You also need a 3 month deposit. So, to move to an area with a suitable job that matches your skill set, you'll need a few grand in the bank first. Hence, you get people in limbo, they can't afford to move to where the job is, there's a limited pool of jobs in their area, they don't have support and training on hand to allow them to expand their opportunities.

    The other thing to consider is that the 'work shy' make up a tiny percentage of the actual population. The cost of keeping them is in the low millions - then have a look at HS2, billions gone, look at the COVID loans given away and never recovered - billions gone.

    On top of all that, it's a risk for some of the benefits claimants to take a job. We actually need a supportive benefits system, allowing people to get in to work, back them up with some money for a while and then gradually slide the benefits down as they become full time employees. At the moment, they cut you off as soon as you get a job, leaving you with no way of being able to afford to get to work and pay bills for the first couple of months.

    Cutting benefits is not going to work. Look at countries that have no benefit system. What do you get? Homeless people, lots of them, thousands. Increased thefts, leading to assaults, leading to drug taking, drug dealing.....it's a spiral of doom. Let's not do that! Let's try something different.
     
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    japancool

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    You know, like working in factories

    You mean all those factories we no longer have because we outsourced everything to China?

    I suppose they could all become Uber drivers or deliver takeaways.

    I guess I must count too, because I claim PIP. But not to worry, as soon as my leg grows back, I'll stop claiming for it.
     
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    I like to think that I am as compassionate as they come but anybody who thinks that benefits are too low really needs a reality check.

    I'd be fascinated to see the nature and extent of your research.

    Might it be that heady mix of garden Gate survey, tabloid press, blokes in the pub and confirmation bias?

    Undoubtedly there are some people cheerfully using and abusing the system for personal gain. They are definitely not the majority
     
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    Newchodge

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    Perhaps this may be informative?

    The basic rate of support from our social security system has hit historic lows, which has been a significant driver of people going without essentials like food, a warm home or showers.

     
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    IanSuth

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    There is also the issue that the less you have the more it costs to live

    If you have a 3 bed house purchased in the early 2000's then even with a kid or 2 your monthly outgoing won't be much higher than a single person trying to live in a bedsit.

    I know that what i can feed my self, wife and 17 yo daughter for(the other 2 children are rarely here now) is less than what a bedsit person would spend feeding themselves as I have a freezer, oven, storage space so I have the economies of bulk buying, buying things when on offer/loss leader and the ability to batch cook and freeze. None of that is available to someone in a bedsit.

    Even if i hadn't paid of my mortgage the amount it would be monthly would be less that the rent on a bedsit in Reading. And i reckon my energy bills are less than i would spend on a keymeter in that bedsit as well.

    If i want to go to an interview I would drive or use one of the motorbikes - if out of work bedsit dweller did, they would need to use a bus or even worse minicab

    Being poor is very expensive
     
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    japancool

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    The benefit cap for a childless couple is £22k pa. That's the *maximum* you can get, not what you will get. Deduct rent, council tax and energy bills, and that doesn't leave much.

    The only benefit that I'm aware of that gives you a vehicle is when PIP is used to pay for a mobility scooter, so I don't see how this girl was supposedly given a car. Sounds like one of these "a friend of a friend told me".
     
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