Rising fuel costs
- Thread starter Paul Norman
- Start date
Load increases, but peak demand remains the same? So the chargers only work certain hours - not suitable for all business.
Demand side response, again not suitable for all - delivery vans may be are out during peak hours for example. Is the money worth it given the increase in battery wear?
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Well done.....starting to get the idea. We have yet to find any customer that we have not been a le to get fully charged off peak. The exception being a milk delivery company, who have no issue charging during the day.
Something like 80% of vehicles are likely to be parked and plugged in during high demand periods l. You seem to by trying to focus negative putcomes on the minority of users.
No now issues with battery's and DSR....
DSR isn't about money saving.....its about grid resilience, lowing a tra sition to greener energies that don't have spinning reserves.
Again, what experience or qualifications do you ha e in electricity or energy in general?
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£10m upgrade for Bermondsey electricity supply
People living in Bermondsey are to get a £10m upgrade on their electricity supply. UK Power Networks is beginning work
www.southwarknews.co.uk
London’s financial district gets power upgrade - UK Construction Online
UK Power Networks is providing a £5M upgrade project that will double the power capacity to Bishopsgate and Moorgate, London.
UK Power Networks has pledged to invest £1.5Bn in London’s electricity network over the eight years leading to 2023 in order to support growth, development, and maintain safe, reliable electricity supplies across homes and businesses as a way of supporting London’s economic development.
In fact, UK Power Networks commissioned over 500 megawatts of capacity extensions throughout London during 2018, showing evidence of their commitment to their £1.5Bn pledge.
Perhaps you should tell them it's not needed?
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Energy UK - The voice of the energy industry
Energy UK is the trade association for the energy industry. Our members deliver nearly 80% of the UK's power generation and over 95% of the energy supplied to UK homes and businesses.
www.energy-uk.org.uk
Energy UK is the trade association for the energy industry with over 100 members spanning every aspect of the energy sector – from established FTSE 100 companies right through to new, growing suppliers and generators, which now make up over half of our membership.
Connecting Your Fleet A guide for businesses in Greater London
Step 5: Considering upgrade works
If, having explored all of the options in Step 4, you conclude that your maximum demand will still exceed Agreed Supply Capacity, then you (or your contractor) will need to submit an application to your DNO to understand the full scope of works, including costs and timeline (links here for: UKPN and SSEN). If you would like help before you submit an application form there also are various options to engage with your DNO.
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£10m upgrade for Bermondsey electricity supply
People living in Bermondsey are to get a £10m upgrade on their electricity supply. UK Power Networks is beginning work
London’s financial district gets power upgrade - UK Construction Online
UK Power Networks is providing a £5M upgrade project that will double the power capacity to Bishopsgate and Moorgate, London.www.ukconstructionmedia.co.uk
UK Power Networks has pledged to invest £1.5Bn in London’s electricity network over the eight years leading to 2023 in order to support growth, development, and maintain safe, reliable electricity supplies across homes and businesses as a way of supporting London’s economic development.
In fact, UK Power Networks commissioned over 500 megawatts of capacity extensions throughout London during 2018, showing evidence of their commitment to their £1.5Bn pledge.
Perhaps you should tell them it's not needed?
Come on nick....no ones that stupid.
Where did I say they dont need upgrading or expanding? The evidence you ha e posted just proves they are already doing those works as part of business as usual.....nothing to do with ev. If you actually bothered to read them (can you read?) You would ever they are upgraded for many reasons including population growth efficiency and safety....not ONE mentions ev.
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Ahhh nick.....you are clearly confused. This happens when people step outside of their skill set.Energy UK - The voice of the energy industry
Energy UK is the trade association for the energy industry. Our members deliver nearly 80% of the UK's power generation and over 95% of the energy supplied to UK homes and businesses.
Energy UK is the trade association for the energy industry with over 100 members spanning every aspect of the energy sector – from established FTSE 100 companies right through to new, growing suppliers and generators, which now make up over half of our membership.
Connecting Your Fleet A guide for businesses in Greater London
Step 5: Considering upgrade works
If, having explored all of the options in Step 4, you conclude that your maximum demand will still exceed Agreed Supply Capacity, then you (or your contractor) will need to submit an application to your DNO to understand the full scope of works, including costs and timeline (links here for: UKPN and SSEN). If you would like help before you submit an application form there also are various options to engage with your DNO.
You have confused maximum demand with network demand.
Again.....I have yet to find any customers who exceed either. I have installed a new sub main to a new customer wanting more power. That's nothing unusual and more business as usual.
Perhaps join the ENA? Update your knowledge.....a lot!
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They are upgrading for many reasons, given that a huge number of EV chargers will be installed in London, I think it's highly unlikely that they have not included this within their calculations.
They don't need to specify it, it's common sense.
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You've never seen an energy bill with excess capacity charges on? Really?
If the individual maximum demands of a group of sites increases, what happens to the network demand, when the max demands occur at the same time?
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Incorrect again..... does it hurt to be so wrong?
Fun fact.....if you have a house with electric you can charge from zero to full, overnight 2 cars. Regardless of your current demand or incoming capacity. At peak times, the same energy is used as would be used if ALL homes plugged in 2 ev chargers. Ergo....you DONT need larger supplies or transformers.
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Lol.....why would they increase at the same time? Why would the DNO allow any connections that exceed the design IB of the tx?
You haven't thought this through much have you.
And no.....you can't exceed the capacity. I have seen excess charges from reactive power.....again...not relevant here
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Winter? Cold? Maybe look at Triads.
Capacity charges can't be exceeded?
Getting prepared for DCP 161 - Stark
DCP 161 is on its way - arriving in April 2018. What can you do now in preparation?
www.stark.co.uk
DCP stands for Distribution Connection and Use of System Agreement (DCUSA) Change Proposal with DCP 161 reintroducing higher charges for excess capacity.
Previously, any capacity above your contracted amount has been charged at the same rate as your available capacity. From April 2018, if you exceed your contracted capacity you will incur a higher charge for the excess each month you went over.
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You are referring to DUOS capacity...not incoming capacity. Again...why would anyone be charging charging during DUOS hours and risking those charges and even worse TrIAD charges? I spent 10 years reducing g e ergy during those hours.....I think we have that one covered.Winter? Cold? Maybe look at Triads.
Capacity charges can't be exceeded?
Getting prepared for DCP 161 - Stark
DCP 161 is on its way - arriving in April 2018. What can you do now in preparation?
DCP stands for Distribution Connection and Use of System Agreement (DCUSA) Change Proposal with DCP 161 reintroducing higher charges for excess capacity.
Previously, any capacity above your contracted amount has been charged at the same rate as your available capacity. From April 2018, if you exceed your contracted capacity you will incur a higher charge for the excess each month you went over.
Perhaps pass my number on to your struggling struggling customers if you ha e been unable to help them. Just pij t them to this thread and get the to pm me. I can resolve their problems.
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DUoS and Triads were in wellbefore 2018.Winter? Cold? Maybe look at Triads.
Capacity charges can't be exceeded?
Getting prepared for DCP 161 - Stark
DCP 161 is on its way - arriving in April 2018. What can you do now in preparation?
DCP stands for Distribution Connection and Use of System Agreement (DCUSA) Change Proposal with DCP 161 reintroducing higher charges for excess capacity.
Previously, any capacity above your contracted amount has been charged at the same rate as your available capacity. From April 2018, if you exceed your contracted capacity you will incur a higher charge for the excess each month you went over.
Where does it say they are?
This report was from 2014.....the industry is well prepared for the transition.
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As you're aware Triad charges have been scrapped and replaced by broader Red / Orange times, making it much harder for chargers to avoid
DM me your details and we can talk about EV chargers for some of our clients. Do you cover the whole country?
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It's still easy enough to dodge peak hours if you know what you are doing. Trains were an unknown time but ways predictable....the new system is much easier to avoid
My understanding is they are scrapping Triads and DUoS and just lumping them into the overall bill.
No, we don't cover the whole country and are very selective about our customers and referrals.
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And if chargers are plugged in at peak times?
Or the homeowner uses other high load devices like showers at the same time?
What if they have a heat pump?
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I have. Nothing saying they are concerned that I can see. What part specifically are you referring too.
Here...this is the takeaway section from the conclusion...
"Both EV and HP loads are seen to have a minor impact on the overall network peak load for LPN and will impact the network at an LV feeder level. Of these two Low Carbon Technologies (LCTs), EVs are seen to be significantly less of an impact than HPs."
Which part seems like they are worried Nick?
Just outlining the steps to make it happen is what I took away from the 20q4 report.. UkPN are one of the better DNOs that we deal with
The report is now 8 years old.....the industry is well prepared for the transition. You have only made the case and provided evidence to prove just how well planned this transition has been.
Have you been able to find anything more recent suggesting they are concerned? Or is an 8 year old report, made at the start if a transition the only reference you have?
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You don't know how they work do you?
Why dont explain what you think, based on your knowledge (that you clearly feel is sufficient to share online) would happen in these scenarios.
I mean...presumably you do know, right? Otherwise, why would someone jump into a 50 post thread shaming EVs if you don't even know the basics?
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T
The Byre
The problem here is that some argue about how much capacity we have in the UK for CARS. Now add all other forms of transport and also heat exchangers to heat homes and offices and factories and the calculation looks VERY different!
ALSO - transport and heating is just ONE of the uses for fossil fuels that populist politicians are trying to replace with electricity. Sooner or later, all those schemes are going to run into the brick wall of the laws of physics and also the laws of economics.
The first of those brick walls will be hitting them in the face this year and it will be food supplies. Food is only made out of energy. Bread is just converted Diesel and propane to dry the grain so that it can be stored. All the weedkiller and fertiliser is made from energy - fossil fuels. The green lobby would have us believe that we can smelt steel and grow crops using batteries. We can't.
ALSO - transport and heating is just ONE of the uses for fossil fuels that populist politicians are trying to replace with electricity. Sooner or later, all those schemes are going to run into the brick wall of the laws of physics and also the laws of economics.
The first of those brick walls will be hitting them in the face this year and it will be food supplies. Food is only made out of energy. Bread is just converted Diesel and propane to dry the grain so that it can be stored. All the weedkiller and fertiliser is made from energy - fossil fuels. The green lobby would have us believe that we can smelt steel and grow crops using batteries. We can't.
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I will let this one hang for a while.....it and the evidence from from the UKPN slide you have shared seems to have slowed down your responses. Perhaps it has made you actually stop and think?
I will provide the answer, if you are unable to, soon enough.
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I see the post above about 2 cars can charge overnight in the driveway. Fine.
But what about the highrises for example? There's a few around here. I'd guess there's probably about 50 vehicles overnight for each highrise. What do they do?
Where do the chargers connect? Who pays for that electricity? How is it governed?
Then there's vast areas with only on-street parking. What happens there?
But what about the highrises for example? There's a few around here. I'd guess there's probably about 50 vehicles overnight for each highrise. What do they do?
Where do the chargers connect? Who pays for that electricity? How is it governed?
Then there's vast areas with only on-street parking. What happens there?
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Sorry, went to eat and shop.
"Cost benefit analysis
There is a significant impact on the LV network reinforcement spend in a high EV uptake scenario.
The CBA conducted in this report suggests that high EV uptake could lead to LV reinforcement spend increasing by a factor of four, relative to the current LV reinforcement spend of c. £1-2m p.a. across LPN.
There is a marginal net impact on the primary network reinforcement spend in a high EV uptake scenario
The analysis presented indicates that over time a high uptake of EVs could accelerate certain reinforcement investments, by increasing the peak load at primary substations. It is estimated that the NPV of the change in Totex resulting from the high uptake scenario presented in this report is £11,974k across LPN."
Bolding my own
to complete your quote
"The effects on power quality from EVs and HPs could be pronounced where there is clustering of the load types. The identified significant contribution to low order harmonics could lead to high neutral currents, which would subsequently impact and influence LV network planning."
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And all those in rented accommodation, they would need permission to install a charger.
In town there is a block of flats with a central parking area. There is no practical (and cost effective way) to install sufficient chargers for everyone.
Another housing area has no on road parking. All the vans and work vehicles park up on neighbouring roads with no charging facilities.
Not saying electric vehicles aren’t a good alternative to fossils fuels, it’s just the practicalities if getting them all charged.
In town there is a block of flats with a central parking area. There is no practical (and cost effective way) to install sufficient chargers for everyone.
Another housing area has no on road parking. All the vans and work vehicles park up on neighbouring roads with no charging facilities.
Not saying electric vehicles aren’t a good alternative to fossils fuels, it’s just the practicalities if getting them all charged.
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I presume you're referring to the rules that stop chargers from charging at certain hours to "protect" the grid?
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www.smarttransport.org.uk
This is strange as you've said that there is no shortage of capacity in the network to power all these chargers.
However, all chargers can be overridden to charge during peak hours.
Given that we had massive queues at petrol stations when there was no shortage of fuel, I'm pretty sure that plenty of people will be hitting the override "button" all the time.
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There might be a newer one, but this will do for now.
"Conclusions and recommendations
UK domestic electricity demand from the grid is likely to rise substantially, to as much as 48% over current levels, by 2030 driven by a combination of population growth and demand from heat pumps and electric vehicles, which are offset to some extent by embedded small-scale wind and solar generation. Annual electricity demand from domestic consumers rises in all scenarios, reaching as much as 162TWh/year by 2030 in the High Uptake Scenario
The seasonal dependence of electricity consumption is set to markedly increase in the Central and High Uptake Scenarios. Average daily domestic electricity demand in December is expected to be 685GWh/day, more than double the demand forecast for the summer months
Planning for generation and network capacity needs to take into account the increasing seasonal dependency of domestic electricity demand and the resulting system redundancies this requires in the electricity networks. This highlights the importance of comprehensive industry planning and analysis work in this area, such as that initiated by DECC and Ofgem’s Smart Grid Forum. Since these impacts will vary considerably for different regional demographic compositions, behavioural trends, building types, LCT uptake characteristics and levels of technology clustering, future work will need to focus on how the investment required for network reinforcement over the coming decades (estimated by the Smart Grid Forum to be between £20-£60 billion cumulatively to 2050) will vary for different network regions and assets in the UK."
Again bolding is my own. Network reinforcement means improving the grid - bigger, better substations, transformers, cabling, switchgear, etc, etc.
"We have modelled several DSR scenarios for heat pumps and electric vehicles to determine the extent to which the morning and evening peak increases could be mitigated. We find that simple time-of-use tariffs (such as the current Economy 10 tariff), if widely deployed with uniform time bandings, could potentially create network load problems related to loss of diversity in UK electricity consumption. Heat pumps and electric vehicle charging that are automated to avoid high-tariff periods will create significant peaks at the beginning of static low-tariff time-periods as these devices all activate at the same time."
Heat pumps and EV create increases in peak demand - the peaks might move, but they are still peaks and they still create problems for the network.
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Another example of the physical problems with charging cars.
I live in a tourist town. The council recently installed 2 charge points in the local car park. They are both used more or less all the time. What I also noticed that a car parks up in the EV space and charges, the day tripper wanders off for an ice cream and lunch and leaves the car for the day no matter if it has finished charging or not, they leave the car there so the next EV looking for a charger is unlucky.
If we are expected to share charging points at a ratio of 11 to 1, I just don't think that cars move enough to do that.
I live in a tourist town. The council recently installed 2 charge points in the local car park. They are both used more or less all the time. What I also noticed that a car parks up in the EV space and charges, the day tripper wanders off for an ice cream and lunch and leaves the car for the day no matter if it has finished charging or not, they leave the car there so the next EV looking for a charger is unlucky.
If we are expected to share charging points at a ratio of 11 to 1, I just don't think that cars move enough to do that.
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On street charging. Car park spaces will be fitted with charging points. Car parks are already being fitted with them. Councils are already starting to install more generic onstreet charging. Its really not much different than on street lighting. In terms of demand in high rise blocks, each of those homes will be fitted with a 60amp fuse, allowing for electric cookers, showers and heating. Overnight that isn't needed, and this is when EVs charge. None of that should be difficult to imagine
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Thats not how the spaces work, at least not in my seaside town.
You get charged for being in the space when it isnt charging a car.
Fast chargers only take 20/30mins.
Slower chargers you may well expect them to be charging all day.
As demand increases, along with utilisation sodoes the amount being installed.
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Open Data Bristol
Open Data Bristol is a site for exploring, analysing and sharing data about the city.
opendata.bristol.gov.uk
Bristol open data on charging points, 18 out of 99 not working, 35 out of 99 - status unknown
Ofgem report
32% of low-voltage networks across UK would need upgrading once 40% of customers had EVs
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Grants change next month to specifically target rented properties.
You are talking nonsense about there being practical or cost effective way to charge evs for everyone. You are sadly mistaken.
People like myself are already installing these things....and the industry has only been going for 2/3 years.
I struggle to understand how you think this wont be widespread in 10 years time.
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