How high will inflation go ?

Justin Smith

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I an very worried about inflation, I cannot emphasise how bad things are, every time I want to order stuff, esp stainless steel stuff, I have to get the latest rates from suppliers because the prices are going up so often, it's madness and very frustrating.
I was thinking of buying a newer car the other week till I saw second hand car prices are 20 to 30% higher than they normally would be....

I suspect Brexit has had an effect, but no where near the effects of the pandemic, or, more accurately what the government(s) have chosen to do to suppress it. They shut down, or slowed down (with all the rules on social distancing etc), much of the economy for months on end, and, at the same time, pumped billions and billions of pounds into it. If that is not a recipe for inflation disaster I do not know what is

Personally I think if we get away with inflation at only 5% I will be surprised (and disbelieving).
 
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fisicx

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@The Byre will no doubt be along soon will the details but we could easily see inflation into double figures. I saw one report estimating 17%

Used car prices are high because there is a shortage exacerbated by the lack of chips for new cars.
 
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WaveJumper

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    Until world supply can catch back up with demand caused by this pandemic those suppling will make hay whilst the sun shines, just look at the shipping industry. And with the likes of China still completely in a mess (to put it politely) there will be a lot more pain to come and endusers / customers are going to have to get used to higher prices as costs are passed on.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Until world supply can catch back up with demand caused by this pandemic those suppling will make hay whilst the sun shines, just look at the shipping industry. And with the likes of China still completely in a mess (to put it politely) there will be a lot more pain to come and endusers / customers are going to have to get used to higher prices as costs are passed on.

    So how long do you think it'll take till the world wide supply chain gets over its Covid interruption ? And how high do you guess inflation will go ?
     
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    Justin Smith

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    @The Byre will no doubt be along soon will the details but we could easily see inflation into double figures. I saw one report estimating 17%
    Used car prices are high because there is a shortage exacerbated by the lack of chips for new cars.

    10 to 17% ! That really is frightening, especially when ones savings are getting between 0 and 1.5% interest (depending on how long one wants to lock them in).....

    Used car prices are not unique, much of economy is in exactly the same boat, lack of supply and excess of demand.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    I was thinking of buying a newer car the other week till I saw second hand car prices are 20 to 30% higher than they normally would be....

    I don't suppose anyone on here has any guess as to how long it'll be before second hand car prices return to sanity ? I could do with knowing because I'm debating how much money to spend on my present car, how long has it got to last me ? ! ?
     
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    gpietersz

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    10 to 17% ! That really is frightening, especially when ones savings are getting between 0 and 1.5% interest

    Good for people with net debt at locked in rates though! I think that is quite a high proportion of the population? Probably a good time to lock in rates on debt too (mortgages and credit cards at least).
     
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    WaveJumper

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    The markets have already been reacting to recent data coming out of the ONS, FTSE has been pulling back with the expectation of a rate increase coming in December (buried no doubt government hope within the Christmas festivities) One of the key indicators they have been looking at are the employment figures and strength of the labour market since the ending of the furlough scheme.

    So expect an increase next month.
     
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    DontAsk

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    Two kg box of 'No Nonsense' powder filler from Screwfix has gone up 25% recently. I seem to be using a lot of it at the moment. Timber prices are through the roof, where I need it, LOL.

    Your personal inflation rate will almost certainly very greatly from the 'official' figure, unless you are a very boring 'average' person :)
     
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    Financial-Modeller

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    I don't suppose anyone on here has any guess as to how long it'll be before second hand car prices return to sanity ? I could do with knowing because I'm debating how much money to spend on my present car, how long has it got to last me ? ! ?

    Presumably, whilst the cost of the replacement car will be higher than it would have been historically, the value received for your current car will be, too.

    The cost to change may not be that different to that expected pre-Covid?
     
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    WaveJumper

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    Two kg box of 'No Nonsense' powder filler from Screwfix has gone up 25% recently. I seem to be using a lot of it at the moment. Timber prices are through the roof, where I need it, LOL.

    Your personal inflation rate will almost certainly very greatly from the 'official' figure, unless you are a very boring 'average' person :)
    My son was telling me only yesterday scaffold boards which they were buying at £7.00 are now over £27.00 each and the price of "longens are through the roof" if you can get them. I need to work out builder slang :)
     
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    I would not be surprised by double figures, but I perhaps would expect it to peak under 15%. The central bank's problem is that the economy is not used to material interest rates and those could easily cause more unemployment.

    What will happen, however, is that employees will look for some form of inflation increase of the order of inflation. For the small number of staff I have I will pay that as well (as will many other employers).
     
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    gpietersz

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    As an example, Europe took 300 years to recover from the Black Death.

    The Black death killed at least 30% of the population of Europe. Covid is not really comparable.

    It also left ordinary people better off because a labour shortage increased their wages. The decline in the economy was a result of a reduced population: per capita GDP increased during the black death: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/eri/bulletin/2010-11-1/broadberry
     
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    Justin Smith

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    What makes you think we'll get over it?

    As an example, Europe took 300 years to recover from the Black Death.

    With respect Covid was a long long way from the Black Death.
    But your point about if we'll ever get over it is valid.
    Many people may never get over being half scared to death by the government in its efforts to ensure compliance for its policies. IMO it was the biggest over reaction in the history of the world and we will be paying for it for years to come, I am certain most of this inflation is down to that over reaction.
    But as regards inflation, I can remember in the 70s when we had a drought and the price of potatoes went through the roof, the price of chips at our local chippy went up by some ridiculous amount. BUT, the price never came back down again even when the price of potatoes did. And that, when I was in my teens, was the start of my cynicism.....
    Having said that, there was only one chippy in our village, it'll be competition which brings prices back down.
     
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    The Black death killed at least 30% of the population of Europe. Covid is not really comparable.

    It also left ordinary people better off because a labour shortage increased their wages. The decline in the economy was a result of a reduced population: per capita GDP increased during the black death: https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/eri/bulletin/2010-11-1/broadberry

    It depends where you look, different countries had different effects.

    It also left ordinary people better off because a labour shortage increased their wages.

    Sounds familiar
     
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    With respect Covid was a long long way from the Black Death.
    But your point about if we'll ever get over it is valid.
    Many people may never get over being half scared to death by the government in its efforts to ensure compliance fr its policies.
    And as regards inflation, I can remember in the 70s when we had a drought and the price of potatoes went through the roof, the price of chips at our local chippy went up by some ridiculous amount. BUT, the price never came back down again even when the price of potatoes did. And that, when I was in my teens, was the start of my cynicism.....
    Having said that, there was only one chippy in our village, it'll be competition which brings prices back down.

    In terms of deaths, I agree.

    In terms of disruption to supply chains, changes to people's behaviour, changes to the economy, etc maybe not be as different as it first appears.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Wholesale gas prices (the prices that suppliers pay) were around 0.5p per kWh in the summer 2020

    This increased to around 1.5p per kWh this spring.

    Average prices are now around 7p per kWh and have peaked at over 10p.

    https://www.energybrokers.co.uk/gas/historic-price-data-graph

    This is why so many suppliers have failed this year, and more will fail.

    https://www.forbes.com/uk/advisor/energy/failed-uk-energy-suppliers-update/

    Our gas supplier for work went belly up. pour price per KWh of gas (we don't use much so don;t get a decent rate) went from about 3.4p to 8.1p....
    Interestingly when one renews one's elec or gas contract it's always more expensive to do so for a longer term. BUT this time it was cheaper to do it for a longer term, thus proving the gas suppliers are sure the prices will come down
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Presumably, whilst the cost of the replacement car will be higher than it would have been historically, the value received for your current car will be, too.

    The cost to change may not be that different to that expected pre-Covid?
    It's massively different because I keep my cars a long time and therefore my car is worth about 10% of the price of the car I was originally going to buy.
    Same as always, houses or anything, if trading up buy when the market as at the bottom, if trading down buy when the market is at the top.
     
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    MarkOnline

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    I don't suppose anyone on here has any guess as to how long it'll be before second hand car prices return to sanity ? I could do with knowing because I'm debating how much money to spend on my present car, how long has it got to last me ? ! ?
    This is just a guess..... next Tuesday at about 16.22 hrs, I think they should fall by about 8.75% and new floor mats will come as standard.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    This is just a guess..... next Tuesday at about 16.22 hrs, I think they should fall by about 8.75% and new floor mats will come as standard.
    What happens if I don't need the floor mats ?

    Seriously, as regards when 2nd hand car prices will return to sanity, I have read 6 months in some places and 2023 in others.
     
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    fisicx

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    I don't suppose anyone on here has any guess as to how long it'll be before second hand car prices return to sanity ? I could do with knowing because I'm debating how much money to spend on my present car, how long has it got to last me ? ! ?
    Could take years. Chip design for cars have a very long lead time (up to 10 years). Chip manufacturers are concentrating on the things that make money, car chips are right at the bottom on the list.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Could take years. Chip design for cars have a very long lead time (up to 10 years). Chip manufacturers are concentrating on the things that make money, car chips are right at the bottom on the list.

    I read it was because chip manufacturers are still trying to get back the production they lost due to shut downs. Is that wrong ?

    "Car makers' ongoing difficulties securing semiconductor chips globally for the production of new models means outputs have slowed dramatically since the pandemic first hit."
    https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...r-low-stock-runs-prices-hit-record-highs.html

    Used car prices :
    50110001-10181403-image-a-1_1636460789390.jpg
     
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    @The Byre will no doubt be along soon will the details but we could easily see inflation into double figures. I saw one report estimating 17%.
    Ha! Ha! (Woosh - and here I am!)

    It's not just one thing or another, we have a perfect combination of a series of black-swan events, combined with the return of the debt cycle that last visited us in 1930 - well, it was actually 1920-30. First euphoria and spend, spend, spend. Then came the crash!

    The Chinese government has just told its people to stock up on food and panic ensued - the people were reminded of the great famine of 1959-61. Add to that their housing bubble that is about to deflate one way or another and the record floods and warnings of a particularly cold winter. Chinese companies are defaulting on their debts like never before.

    Official US inflation (CPI) is now over 6%. The real figure is (using the 1990 method of calculation) is 10% and if we use the method from 1980, 15%. Here, the government is pretending that we are only at 3%.

    (Governments depress inflation figures by automatically altering the CPI basket of goods and services in accordance with people's purchasing preferences - conveniently ignoring the somewhat obvious fact that people alter their purchasing preferences as a reaction to rising prices! Houses and flats get smaller, the Sunday beef roast is replaced by the Sunday chicken and manufacturers have to replace one grade of steel with a cheaper grade - and so on.)

    Everywhere productivity is either flat-lining or falling and costs are escalating. UK farming costs are increasing by 22% p.a. and UK manufacturing production costs are increasing at 13.5% p.a.

    Everywhere we look, governments and central banks are behaving with levels of incompetence and mendacity that is breathtaking. The current US government is throwing more QE gasoline onto the inflation fire with their multi-trillion-dollar spending bill, the head and his deputy of the Bundesbank in Germany both resigned in disgust at the behaviour of the ECB and its refusal to limit the money supply.

    And here we had a Chancellor of the Exchequer stand on his hind legs and deliver a budget for over an hour without mentioning any of the above - he even pretended that the UK has just had record growth when the UK has yet to reach the same level of prosperity as in 2007. And all thanks to gross economic mismanagement.

    Here is a stark warning to everyone - the shortages and price increases are not because of C19 or Brexit or any supply-chain hiccoughs, but because systems everywhere are breaking down. And when they break down, the shops are empty and some people go hungry.

    And hungry people are dangerous!

    If I were to go in for motivational speaking, I would open with what I listed so far and then tell my audience that this represents the largest opportunity for those who are switched on that we have ever seen. Ever!

    The next five years will decide if you want to succeed like never before - or join the starving masses.

    Yes, I fear for the fate of those without my resources. If you are of moderate means and living in a town or city, you may end up getting wiped out by inflation and/or civil unrest. And if you are poor and infirm, I just hope that you can somehow survive the coming five years or so.

    But if you are young and resourceful - or just resourceful - golden opportunities await! I doubt that there has been a time in history to compare with this moment right now to make hay and get busy!

    The old saying in show business is "Be ready when the Man calls!"

    Well, the man is calling right now! In fact, he's shouting his head off! The Man has made all the stars align in your favour like never before!

    The opportunities are anything and everything that is real. Commodities like gold, silver, copper are far too cheap and in short supply. At the beginning of this year, I said here that oil would be $100 a barrel before the year is over; it may even go over that. Land and clean water will always be in demand and there are two companies that dominate the world's water movement market and when the sell-off starts, their shares will go down with everybody else's.

    Fiat money is dying. Pounds, dollars, Euros - all just fugazi! Pixi dust! That pension you have been saving for may easily turn out to become worthless. As long as that fiction is maintained, you can buy real things - especially land. Grow food on that land. Learn those skills that turn land, machines and Diesel into food. You'll probably enjoy doing this and you may end up needing those skills! And develop networks with others that are doing the same in your area. Even if money survives, you are better for doing this!

    Used car prices? You should try farm machinery! Someone offered me £8,000 for my 50-year-old tractor - I paid £3,000 for it 15 years ago! I was talking to a man who had to pay 90% of the cost of a new tractor for a tractor that was 20 years old!
     
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    fisicx

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    I read it was because chip manufacturers are still trying to get back the production they lost due to shut downs. Is that wrong ?
    No. They are focusing on chips for computers, servers, networks and other devices first. Car manufacturers only ever buy in small quantities so the profit margins are much smaller than a PC company buying millions of chips.
     
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    fisicx

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    As long as that fiction is maintained, you can buy real things - especially land. Grow food on that land. Learn those skills that turn land, machines and Diesel into food. You'll probably enjoy doing this and you may end up needing those skills! And develop networks with others that are doing the same in your area. Even if money survives, you are better for doing this!
    Already doing this.

    I remember what it was like in 1973. Not just the three day week but power cuts and everyone huddled in one room because we couldn't afford to heat the whole house. It could easily be the same. We are reliant on Europe for energy. If things get wobbly there is no backup plan.

    My wife does finance things and they reckon China is going downhill fast. Production will focus on the internal market leaving the rest of us short of all those cheap thing we so desire.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    The Chinese government has just told its people to stock up on food and panic ensued - the people were reminded of the great famine of 1959-61. Add to that their housing bubble that is about to deflate one way or another and the record floods and warnings of a particularly cold winter. Chinese companies are defaulting on their debts like never before.

    I wonder whether China's bellicose noises on Taiwan are another giveaway, when you want to bury domestic bad news and difficulties, focus the populations minds on an external threats, or good old nationalism.
     
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    fisicx

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    MBE2017

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    No sign of the secondhand car market slowing down, dealers are buying many at auction at near retail prices once auction fees, transport and preparation have been taken into account.

    I was interested in a BMW today, £14k trade price, expected to retail around 17.5/18k, the first bid was £17,100, it sold at £17,800 plus fees etc. I can only assume they need stock and are relying on selling it on finance.
     
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    gpietersz

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    I wonder whether China's bellicose noises on Taiwan are another giveaway, when you want to bury domestic bad news and difficulties, focus the populations minds on an external threats, or good old nationalism.

    Definitely. I think its also a way of putting pressure on the west , particularly the US, as the world is heavily depended on Taiwanese chip fabs. If China controlled Taiwan on top of its existing output, it would be about a third of global capacity.
     
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    Paul Norman

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    So, this morning we crossed the 4% barrier. For us hardened inflation warriors of the 70's we are still sneering at this.

    But this is not the 70's.

    I don't know how high it will go - I am guessing at 15%. But in some sectors it will be more. Fuel has gone up by almost 50% in a few months, and is holding at the higher prices. It seems likely that utilities might go up by a similar amount, maybe more.

    Some other things, perhaps, might settle down slightly. So the exact amount will depend on what you spend your money on.
     
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    Paul Norman

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    No sign of the secondhand car market slowing down, dealers are buying many at auction at near retail prices once auction fees, transport and preparation have been taken into account.

    I was interested in a BMW today, £14k trade price, expected to retail around 17.5/18k, the first bid was £17,100, it sold at £17,800 plus fees etc. I can only assume they need stock and are relying on selling it on finance.

    Some places are struggling for stock massively right now, because there is a lack of 1 to 2 year old part exchanges around.
     
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    Casually made

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    With governments printing money like water what do we expect

    If global economy's were in a market cycle they would be in the euphoria stage now and well we knows what comes next

    People were looking at furlough and BBL as free money "haha the governments lost the plot lets milk it"

    such is the issue with modern society most can not see further than their own noses

    I found it quite bizarre how wanton the gov was with the public purse during the great "pandemic" that had such an arbitrary mortality rate depending on what day of the week it was

    300 billion ( mostly borrowed or plucked out of thin air) pissed down the drain 18 months later all of a sudden bank of England starts raising an eyebrow towards inflation , Sunak thinks " hang on a second if we raise interest rates the government won't be able to service its own debts"

    Which is why the BOE has decided to keep them flatline

    Collapse the economy or a government default - pick your winner

    "Ah well that's a problem for next year"

    The UK is primed for economic collapse housing market , energy , food , automotive all swollen more than Boris's belly

    I can't wait for the anarchy to commence.
     
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