Streets are safer ...my backside they are..

[Qualitee]

We find it appalling precisely because it is so unusual

It is NOT getting worse by the day. It's just a perception that it is because a couple of horrific events have happened close together and the press have had an easy job to do.


First of all, we find it appalling because it IS appalling.

Is there a contradiction in what you have said...

It is obviously getting worse by the day if the press have something like this to report each and every day. If they have these stories to report every day, it makes it a fact not a perception I believe.

If the Government statistics show that crime is decreasing would you be so kind as to explain why prisons are so overcrowded? Why the Government themselves are talking about building more prisons?

Pauline

 

[lockie]

Cjd please reread my post i NEVER said i was regularly beaten, i said it was a one off ,you just assumed it was regular and i resent that as it puts my father in a bad light.

I was being totally honest about a childhood experience that i think was a good lesson. If it hadn't have happened i could have gone on to worse things.And for the record i was never smacked as a child either.My point was it was a short sharp shock and an isolated incident that worked.At that point in my life i know a telling off would not have worked.

My father is a good man who devotes his time to unpaid charity work.

Please get your facts right before being so judgmental.

 

[ken_uk]

The other thing is - a heck of a lot of people are not now reporting crimes - so the lesser ones are not being added in, again distorting the figures. The police practically tell someone who has their front windows smashed that there isn't much they can do, record the 'visit' but don't then actually record the 'crime' itself - therefore it never reaches the stats.

Spin runs our country nowadays - and it doesn't really help.

Had our window broken twice, the first time, the police said exactly that, nothing they could do, no chance of tracing who did it. Second time, I didnt bother reporting it.

As for safe streets, the street where I live, and the immediate area around the street has seen the following in the last few years

A Double shooting (one fatality a completely innocent pensioner), A gunman firing in the street, at least 2 burglaries I know of (one was our house), an assault (5 men onto one single mother), a shooting in the knee, a murder outside someones home, frequent joyriding, an unexploded bomb, murder of an asylum seeker,frequent gangs of yobs, constant football playing where its not allowed, several arson attacks and probably more..

Lovely and safe....

 

Ken - you don't live round the corner from me do you ??

 

[ken_uk]

I bet there are many areas that can say similar things, in my case, its Sunderland, England, but I bet many areas fit a similar description now.
Yet all I read in the local marketing junk from organisations and councils is how safe things are, and how they are improving the area.

 

If you speak to a policeman nowadays and ask his opinion on policing - most will tell you the same thing - their hands are tied by 'human rights' and 'red tape'. The police themselves are not really at fault - they just have to be extra careful when doing their job.

Look at some of those terrorists they have arrested over the past few years - some are even suing the police force now !! There have been numerous payments dished out to families of terrorists shot/killed during armed insurgency in NI - as compensation for their loss!!

The world has gone 'human rights' mad - and the UK heads the list. Personally, if someone hurts a member of my family, I won't be there to see his day in court - I will still be digging his hole, screw his human rights !

 

[cjd]

Cjd please reread my post i NEVER said i was regularly beaten, i said it was a one off ,you just assumed it was regular and i resent that as it puts my father in a bad light.

Calm down, I've explained that I was not referring to you or your dad. I'm glad your dad was a good one and I'm pleased that it did you no harm. No need to take this personally.

I'm speaking generally - picking up on your phrase 'being beaten never did me any harm'. It's a phrase you hear all the time and in my view it's wrong, it did a lot of kids harm.

But as you bring it up again, are you saying that taking a child into the street and publicly whipping him with a leather belt is a good thing?

 

[lockie]

Well im sorry cjd but post 91 in this thread certainly does look like its aimed at me, if its not then ok no problem.

I pointed out that that experience made me a better person so yes it is an option.It was so out of character for my dad i realised straight away the severity of what i had done.

At present we have the softly softly approach and it isnt working.
How would you address this situation ? As ive already said i wouldnt have listened to a good telling off, grounded or whatever at that moment in my life but that did the job it intended.

 

[estwig]

Easy Lockie, I didn't read anything as aimed at you, forums are terrible for this, we as people were never meant to communicate in this way, it is so easy to get wires crossed.

P.S

Is that the right were?? wouldn't want to incur the wroth of the pedants and I am never too sure

 

[Cornish Steve]

At present we have the softly softly approach and it isnt working.
How would you address this situation ? As ive already said i wouldnt have listened to a good telling off, grounded or whatever at that moment in my life but that did the job it intended.

From my experience as a parent, some boys just won't be guided by tellings off, groundings, and the like. When all else fails, I don't see a problem with spanking, but under the following conditions:

- You wait a while so you've had time to calm down.
- You make it clear to the child why he's being punished.
- Afterwards, you deliver a hug and explain that your purpose is to ensure he turns out well.

It's much preferred to deal with a rebellious boy as a child than with a rebellious teen/man as an adult.

 

[cjd]

From my experience as a parent, some boys just won't be guided by tellings off, groundings, and the like. When all else fails, I don't see a problem with spanking, but under the following conditions:

I seriously doubt that you would ever have serious trouble with your kids and long term a beating or two wont have made any difference to the situation one way or the other. (It's just totally unnecessary and degrading for both of you, in my view).

Kids from middle class, two parent families that are loved rarely cause serious trouble - beaten or otherwise.

It's kids from horrible backgrounds that are the problem and they are quite used to being beaten up (and much worse) by their 'parents'.

 

[Cornish Steve]

long term a beating or two wont have made any difference to the situation one way or the other.

Let's be clear: It's not a beating. That word has very different connotations from spanking, and I want to be clear about that. (Also, the word 'smack' in US English really does mean to 'beat', so I tend to avoid it.)

A few months back, my oldest son and I were talking about it, and he remembers one or two of the incidents. Unprompted, he pointed out that his behaviour really was not acceptable and he did deserve to be spanked. He has no problem with the approach we took.

Of course, no parent should want to spank their child. It's painful for both parties. Still, I'd rather that seriously disobedient children learn the lesson that "crime does not pay" (if I can put it that way) when they are young and not when they are adults. The authorities are not going to be as lenient with them as adults as parents are when they are children.

 

[lockie]

We cant make people have a middle class 2 parent upbringing so what is the solution ?

 

[cjd]

We cant make people have a middle class 2 parent upbringing so what is the solution ?

What makes you think there is a solution? If there was a simple one we'd have found it a few centuries ago.

As, I said earlier, the things we know to work is increasing economic wealth and education across the whole of society. That's going to take several generations.

I'm not advocating doing nothing; there's a huge amount that can and should be done in the short term but the underlying problem of the 'underclass' is impossible to deal with except in a long term strategic way.

The knee jerk reaction of the right wing press every time they get a horror story to write about and the patently stupid pandering to the gullible but well meaning social engineers of the left is not helping.

We need a non-party political, long term commitment to improving the living conditions of the poor and a really hard nosed, 'do not fcuk with me' strategy of dealing with the gangs. Amongst other things.

 

[cjd]

Let's be clear: It's not a beating.

I can't let you off with that. 'spanking' is just a euphemism for hitting a child.

If you believe in it, fine; but don't fool yourself.

 

[Cornish Steve]

I can't let you off with that. 'spanking' is just a euphemism for hitting a child.

If you believe in it, fine; but don't fool yourself.

I disagree completely. A beating implies something performed in the heat of the moment, when you're angry or frustrated. Hence, it's a type of lashing out or revenge and certainly doesn't have the interests of the other person at heart. A spanking is something planned in advance, given for the specific purpose of correcting a child's former misbehaviour in order to change their future decisions, and given with the concern of the child in mind. These two things are quite different.

 

Now lets try common sense, as an adult if someone smacks you in the mouth.

what do you feel?

anger,hurt,like fighting back,hurting the other person.beating the sh*t out of them of course you do

Now when a child is hit,it realises it is not in a position to retaliate so what happens to those feelings of resentment.

I would guess they lay doormant,untill the child has grown big enough to be a force amongst adults.

And them possible in a totaly inapropiate situation,and not neccessarily against the person who inflickted the original pain,all hell is let loose.

we are all animals and children are just small animals.

kindness is never physicaly hurting the one you are supposed to love.


Earl

 

[Cornish Steve]

we are all animals and children are just small animals.

But we are moral creatures, and that lies at the heart of the problem. There is moral behaviour, and there is immoral behaviour, and our consciences guide us when the law does not. A gang member beating up an innocent bystander is an immoral act, and it's immaterial whether the aggressor grew up in rich, poor, or indifferent surroundings. I'm not against doing much more for those in need, but poverty is no excuse for random violent behaviour.

kindness is never physicaly hurting the one you are supposed to love.

Not true. We give children awful tasting medicine and force them to be inoculated against disease because we know it's needed. We pull off plasters quickly because we know it's better for the child than slowly trying to peel it off. We may push a child to the ground so she doesn't get hit by a rock thrown in her direction. Sometimes, pain is inflicted in order to prevent greater pain. Disciplining a child can prevent that child from growing up to become a selfish, shunned, or criminal adult.

 

But we are moral creatures, and that lies at the heart of the problem. There is moral behaviour, and there is immoral behaviour, and our consciences guide us when the law does not. A gang member beating up an innocent bystander is an immoral act, and it's immaterial whether the aggressor grew up in rich, poor, or indifferent surroundings. I'm not against doing much more for those in need, but poverty is no excuse for random violent behaviour.


Not true. We give children awful tasting medicine because we know it's needed. We pull off plasters quickly because we know it's better for the child than slowly trying to peel it off. We may push a child to the ground so she doesn't get hit by a rock thrown in her direction. Sometimes, pain is inflicted in order to prevent greater pain. Disciplining a child can prevent that child from growing up to become a selfish, shunned, or criminal adult.

we are only moral creatures at our higher levels,a smack in the mouth does not prompt a debate about whether we should retaliate,it works at an animal level.

I would guess your right that poverty is not a reason for violence ,but it sure would seem to help.

Your last argument is bloody absurd commonly known as confusing the issue with a few facts.

Earl

 

[cjd]

I disagree completely. A beating implies something performed in the heat of the moment, when you're angry or frustrated. Hence, it's a type of lashing out or revenge and certainly doesn't have the interests of the other person at heart. A spanking is something planned in advance, given for the specific purpose of correcting a child's former misbehaviour in order to change their future decisions, and given with the concern of the child in mind. These two things are quite different.

I'm not for one minute criticising your motives. I know from early discussions that you are sincere and thoughtful about them - and I can also easily believe that you love and care for your children and want only the best for them.

I just know you are wrong that 's all. You're wrong about 'executing' criminals (which is a euphemism for state sanctioned, cold blooded murder) and you're wrong about 'spanking' children (which is a euphemism for cold bloodedly hitting children).

If for no other reason than that neither work.

I also think that deliberately (with malice aforethought) and cold-bloodedly hitting a child is worse than doing it instinctively; tho' there's not much to choose between them.

But that's just my opinion.

My main point is that hitting a child is hitting a child, regardless of the motive. Using words that imply something less is disingenuous.

 

[cjd]

But we are moral creatures, and that lies at the heart of the problem. There is moral behaviour, and there is immoral behaviour, and our consciences guide us when the law does not.

But your morals are different to mine. I firmly believe that hitting children is wrong and you don't. I believe capital punishment is wrong; almost evil in fact. You don't. Who's right, your conscience or mine?

A gang member beating up an innocent bystander is an immoral act, and it's immaterial whether the aggressor grew up in rich, poor, or indifferent surroundings. I'm not against doing much more for those in need, but poverty is no excuse for random violent behaviour.

Agreed. The question is what to do about it.

 

[cjd]

CJD,

I am compiling a response - may take a day or six - but brace yourself

Take your time, I play a long game

 

[lockie]

One thing i dont get is what do you class as poor areas ? I go to many areas that could be classed as poor but i see council flats with the latest plasmas and nice furniture so am i missing something. The black market is strong in these areas and money is there, its these customers that quite often spend the most.
You can never get rid of this rich and poor situation and tax isnt the answer.We need to stop giving handouts to all and sundry as it conditions people they get something for nothing or for having kids.Why should i pay stacks of tax because i choose to work hard and lots of hours ? I chose to learn my trade and i paid for that choice in other ways through working sill y hours to do 2 jobs at once.Now im reaping the rewards of my hard work i dont see why i should pay more tax to help out the so called poor.

Everyone has choices in life but unfortunately many people dont want to take them, they want everything for as little work as possible. I even see this within my own trade, blokes that wont travel for work or wont do it for less than x amount.Ive had comment because ive done jobs miles away for peanuts but im busy and earning money because of this attitude.

The teenage gangs know nothing will happen to them unless they kill someone hence the reason they carry on causing trouble.Near where i live i know several areas the gangs dont cause trouble and thats because of the threat of the local "firm" sorting them out not because of anything legal scaring them.I know its not right but in this instance the threat of violence does work like it or not.

We are starting to see several gang wars flaring up and there have been 2 shootings in the last few weeks related to it.
The gangs are also to do with power and control especially the contr l of the drugs trade.Some are just puppets on a string to the big players who keep in the background pulling the strings.

We need zero tolerance on bad behaviour not parking.

 

[Anara]

Now lets try common sense, as an adult if someone smacks you in the mouth.

what do you feel?

anger,hurt,like fighting back,hurting the other person.beating the sh*t out of them of course you do

Now when a child is hit,it realises it is not in a position to retaliate so what happens to those feelings of resentment.

I would guess they lay doormant,untill the child has grown big enough to be a force amongst adults.

And them possible in a totaly inapropiate situation,and not neccessarily against the person who inflickted the original pain,all hell is let loose.

we are all animals and children are just small animals.

kindness is never physicaly hurting the one you are supposed to love.


Earl

Totally agree with this Earl, most amount of common sense in one post I've seen today.

Claire

 

[cjd]

Near where i live i know several areas the gangs dont cause trouble and thats because of the threat of the local "firm" sorting them out not because of anything legal scaring them.I know its not right but in this instance the threat of violence does work like it or not.

I think this disguises a good answer to the gang problem - or at least a compounding cause.

This thread started with a common revulsion and shock at shooting of a child. The police asked for help from the community and were 'disappointed with the response'.

It's often the case that the community has information but do not co-operate with the police - in fact they collaborate with the criminals. Unless the communities where these obscenities occur stand up for themselves and until the rest of us create a mechanism for them to do so without personal risk the thugs with be in control.

Somehow, society needs to create a legal 'firm' that can both protect the individuals and scare 3 shades of sh1t out of the thugs. I'm sure that's possible given enough cash and determination.

Personally I'd flood a known trouble area with uniformed police. I'd also look the other way if they took a few ring leaders down alleyways and gave them a serious 'talking to' - [I'd feel bad about it later but get over it quickly.]

 

[Alice3537]

Er, I got smacked as a child, but never in the mouth. If I had been, I might well feel differently to the way in which I view the odd slap to the back of the leg that I received.

Therefore, the example used is (in my opinion) an extreme one.


P.S. I wouldn't smack a child of mine in the mouth. I wouldn't even hit him/her hard. I might, however, give a quick swipe across the backside.

 

[little_stork]

OK i had to respond to this as i feel really strongly about this subject.
I don't know if anyone saw news night a few nights ago on this subject.

The main points that were raised were these:
1. poor parenting and not giving children clear boundaries.
2. Lack of male role models.
3. Lack of discipline in society (look at New York and how they have turned it around).

I Myself think that it is a culmination of all these factors. As a parent I try to instill boundaries (difficult with 3 boys all very different personalities). To be fair and understanding.

I saw a film recently with Sean bean about how we had become a society of vigilantes. It scares me to think that this could so easily happen.
My concern as a parent is this: we spend a long time raising our children, guiding them through life. Then you have some thug snuff that life out just like that.

We need tougher measures on the streets if someone is caught with a knife or gun they go away for a long time.. simple. I don't care that we are at breaking point in prisons etc as a tax payer what about MY human right to have a safe place to bring my kids up and live????


Thats how i feel sorry if you don't agree

Tracey

 

[estwig]

I'd also look the other way if they took a few ring leaders down alleyways and gave them a serious 'talking to' - [I'd feel bad about it later but get over it quickly.]

Bit of a contradiction, doesn't this make someone judge, jury and executioner.

If fact it makes someone a criminal and just as bad as the criminal gangs.

A slippery road.

 

[computerfaq]

I've come from probally one of the most broken families I've ever met. I had to leave home when I was 14, because of problems with my mother. I wasn't beaten by her directly, but by a string of her partners. To the point where I couldn't even be in the same town as her until a couple of months ago.

After finding out she moved to Ireland with my two younger sisters and her latest partner. I feel quite silly about it all, but having said all of this, I think it's definately made me more committed to making a go of what I'm doing.

I may not be doing to well at the moment, and am still sleeping on my uncles sofa (hopefully not for much longer!) but I've learned the hard way that you have to work for what you acheive in life. I went though a stage in my life a couple of years ago when I didn't actually want to do anything other than sit back and let the world go by, but no I just couldn't do that.

Anyway, I think I may have just off-loaded tonnes on to you guys, and hopefully given you some food for thought hopefully

Chris.

 

[cjd]

Bit of a contradiction, doesn't this make someone judge, jury and executioner.

If fact it makes someone a criminal and just as bad as the criminal gangs.

A slippery road.

I agree completely. But if it solved an immediate and desperate problem that was threatening me or my family I would live with the contradiction.

If I was Home Secretary I'd have to do something different and far less effective.

 

[Cornish Steve]

If I was Home Secretary I'd have to do something different and far less effective.

...and more costly.

 

[RayB]

...and more costly.

Nah - just set up another quango - £107 billion per annum so far - so another few million is neither here nor there

 

[Matt Quinn]

Okay! So where can I buy a CCTV camera for outside my house? Secondly, I want to hook it all up to my computer and save it to my hard drive/upload it to the net/stream the video.

Makro... £19.99 + VAT. A card with four inputs and a copy of 'Pico 2000' is maybe £20....

My system runs constantly; an old AMD 800 running Windows '98. Four channels, movement detection etc...... Recently upgraded from a P2 266 that had been in the role for three years....

 

Personally I'd flood a known trouble area with uniformed police. I'd also look the other way if they took a few ring leaders down alleyways and gave them a serious 'talking to' - [I'd feel bad about it later but get over it quickly.]

Do you really think that knocking the sh*t out of a bunch of thugs is going to change the way they feel.I would have thought quite the opposite?

There desire for revenge on society would increase.

Earl

 

[cjd]

Do you really think that knocking the sh*t out of a bunch of thugs is going to change the way they feel.I would have thought quite the opposite?

There desire for revenge on society would increase.

Earl

Of course it won't - but it would get them off my patch.

I'm not advocating it as a cure-all - like I say, a Home Secretary would need to think rather differently; the real answer is harder (if there is one).

 

[lockie]

So lets get this straight cjd my dad gave me the belt once to prevent me going of the rails and thats not ok but taking some thugs down a back alley and doing the same is ok ?

errrm so your saying my dad did the right thing by tackling the problem early on rather than later.

 

[cjd]

So lets get this straight cjd my dad gave me the belt once to prevent me going of the rails and thats not ok but taking some thugs down a back alley and doing the same is ok ?

errrm so your saying my dad did the right thing by tackling the problem early on rather than later.

As far as I know your dad was a decent bloke who thought he was doing the right thing. I fundamentally disagree with his actions (and so does the law) but I accept that he thought he was doing what he felt to be right.

Taking thugs down an alley is not right either. Would I do it if I thought it would fix my local problem and make my home and neighbourhood safe and I could get away with it? - you bet.

[Unlike your dad's actions, I am not hoping that this will in any way make them better people; it won't. My objective is to make them go away and leave me and mine alone].

Is it a national solution to the problem of the criminal underclass? Of course not.

What I may or may not do to get myself out of trouble with thugs who are threatening my family has nothing to do with what I consider to be a moral way of dealing with the problems of society in general.

 

[Cornish Steve]

What I may or may not do to get myself out of trouble with thugs who are threatening my family has nothing to do with what I consider to be a moral way of dealing with the problems of society in general.

Why is that? Aren't you saying there's one rule for the goose and another for the gander?

 

[cjd]

Why is that? Aren't you saying there's one rule for the goose and another for the gander?

Yes, of course.

 

Yes, of course.

To bloody true
highlights the difference between reality and theory