Unreasonable employer - advice needed

[awkwardflower]

Dear members, I'm an employee of an entrepreneur in the UK which is why I thought it would be best to ask you for some advice.

The story is that I recently joined a small business for a promising job which I was excited about (and fully qualified for), but my experience is from a different market and the company size meant a lot of extra tasks I had no idea about. There was no training, but all the expectations to deliver, so obviously my performance attracted a lot of negative remarks and it was overall a really unpleasant experience, but before I could leave, I was let go anyway, I thought that was fair enough and I felt a lot of relief.

However, in my notice period the hostility got worse, and one day I nearly crashed my car driving home because I was so nervous. My partner said he's had enough of me coming home crying every day and told me to go and see the doctor. I did, and I notified my work of my absence, and told them about the two-week line and I even offered some remote work to finish some urgent tasks (it really is a very small business). Unfortunately none of this went down really well - my sickness period is affecting some holidays which is not very considerate but I cannot really control illness. (Besides, it contributed to my stress too as I was really dreading to cover and keep doing stuff I never before did only to mess up and get shouted at again.)

My employer is now questioning my illness (because I offered some help....) and threatened with "legal action". They also said it's a "huge hit" and I am causing them damage by not giving them time to find a cover. Just a reminder, it's a two-week line we're talking about, and they let me go in the first place...

So now they are sending me blackmailing emails to pressure me into quitting without working my notice. I don't really want to do that because it feels like that would be a breach of the contract (so far I don't think I've done anything wrong) and I'm covered by the doctor's note which I don't think they can just ignore. The question is, apart from why on earth are they are being like that, can they really do anything?

 

[The Byre]

Probably not. They'll chalk it up to experience.

Most first-time employers mismanage staff and get things hopelessly wrong and usually hire the wrong people in the first place.

As we don't know what these unreasonable demands were, I cannot comment on whether it is a case of a bad employer or a bad employee. What were these tasks that you had never does before?

 

[awkwardflower]

Thanks for your reply!

I wouldn't like to talk about the tasks, because I'm afraid it might be recognisable in case they view this forum and I don't know what their response would be to that. It's not a first time employer, but I doubt anyone has ever presented a sick note to them.

It's quite possible that they did hire the wrong people, I certainly felt that in my case. Some tasks emerged because other people were also dismissed before (from different roles) and their tasks became spread out amongst the remaining staff. None of it was impossible to do, but they were somewhat far from my qualifications and work history, and I just didn't get them right on the first few occasions (and I got either passive aggressive, or plain aggressive remarks in exchange.) I don't think I was a bad employee as some of my work - the parts I was actually qualified and experienced in - did get some praise, but it was a very small proportion of the role. I totally acknowledged my underperformance in all the other bits, although some teaching instead of angry remarks would have been nice but I can even understand that running a small business is high pressure and makes people short-tempered. It's not really what I mean by them being unreasonable, but their current behaviour towards me on sick leave.

Essentially they accuse me for faking my sickness (because I was able to offer some help!) and their threatening language, and I think that's the unreasonable bit, especially in the case of a two-week line. The sick pay I'm entitled to is very little and my aim is certainly not to make them bankrupt or sabotage their business, neither do I want to commit benefit fraud or any other ridiculous things. I just couldn't take the stress with the job and other personal circumstances added up and the doctor understood this. I have the note and they just don't want to take it, instead, threaten me with "legal action" if I don't quit with immediate effect. So I'm just looking for advice if I need to prepare for anything, if there can be some kind of case against me - or hopefully some confirmation that I didn't do anything wrong.

 

[The Byre]

If the demands were genuinely unreasonable, then it was a case of 'constructive dismissal' though, as you have only been there for a short time, it is a theoretical advantage only.

Chalk it up to experience and work for more sensible and normal people in future!

 

[paulears]

You recently joined, so you have no protection from being fired and they have mono protection from you leaving? Their attitude is so weird? You're being let go yet they expect you to smile, be happy, be productive and put them first???? What plotters. Forget any contractual stuff - their expectations of how people work is severely lacking. Don't even think you're in the wrong.

 

[Mr D]

If ill, don't offer to do some work. And never accept the company trying to force work off on you when ill either.

 

[awkwardflower]

Thanks for your replies. Yes, I know I shouldn't have offered any work, but - since the hostility was what sent me ill in the first place - I was really afraid of their reaction without it, and I thought if I offered some kind of help, I could maybe ease their anger with me (which would have happened anyway). In the past, other staff did work while sick by the way and they were thankful but I'm in a different position obviously.

I don't think that it's something that can be used against me though is it? That I offered something I could do, is no proof that I'm a liar anyway, is it? I'm already dismissed and I'm not breaking the law, neither am I breaching the contract as it's not laid out in it that I cannot take a sick leave in the notice period. So that's why I'm wondering what could they be possible threatening me with?

 

[Neromare Works]

Blackmailing emails... I just don't know. Something sounds weird. Have you tried contacting the Police?

 

[Newchodge]

Block their email address, forget them and move on. There is absolutely nothing they can do. You, potentially have a case against them for personal injury, so keep the emails you have received.

 

[awkwardflower]

Thanks for your replies! It's reassuring to know I'm not in the wrong.

I don't think it is a police matter, by blackmailing I mean, that they threaten me with these "legal actions" over the sick note (?), unless I quit with immediate effect. I haven't opted for that, so now I have to go back for a few more days after the sickness period ends which is a little scary to be honest after such correspondence... I'm thinking of just turning up with my partner, hand them the sick note in person and leave.

I have been reading this forum for reference points but it's hard to tell what's next for me, based on what happens at normal places....

I do save all emails in case it does go even more nasty than it is now but I certainly don't want to take it further, I just want to move on with my life.

 

[Paul Norman]

As this employment is coming to an end anyway, it seems to be the best thing is to just walk away, giving them (in writing, and without emotion) your reasons.

Start looking for a new job. This one is the past, and spending any time on it is making you unwell. It is not worth that, and neither you, nor they, have anything to benefit.

It is extremely unlikely that, beyond unpleasant emails, they will do anything. In reality, there is little, if anything, they can do anyway.

 

[JeffreyMills]

They cannot take “legal action” based on what you have described.
Best thing to do would be send an email stating you offered to do some work whilst sick as that is the usual culture there, but you now realise from the recent email exchanges that it wouldn’t be possible and you withdraw the offer of trying to work whilst sick. As per their dismissal of you, your last day will be (date) during which time you will be absent due to illness.

 

[awkwardflower]

Thanks for your previous replies. I do want to move on and forget about this place, however, they have emailed me again, that they have "filed a formal objection" against my sick note and they don't accept that I was sick (again, because I considered their interests and offered some effing work!) and because of that, they don't want to pay me SSP and offered me a payout until I was fit - otherwise I have to face the "legal consequences".

Again, I think this is blackmail, and I don't want to accept it, because I feel if I did I would also accept that my health concerns were not real and I don't think that an employer can just ignore an employee's sick note, even if it is in the notice period.

On the other hand, I really just want them to stop harassing me. I think this is bullying and intimidation.

 

[tony84]

Just ignore the emails/calls/text.
You have handed in your notice, you are on sick leave, they are not going to sack you for fear of opening themselves up to a claim so just enjoy your next couple of weeks.

You are off with stress so doing things you enjoy will help with stress

 

[JeffreyMills]

Call the ACASfree helpline.
There’s nothing they can do to you legally, it’s all just bluff and the harassing emails make useful evidence if you wanted to take them to a tribunal for health & safety

 

[Newchodge]

If they don't pay what you are entitled to, take them to a tribunal.

they have "filed a formal objection" against my sick note a

That is garbage. Filed where, with whom? Thye are bullying you. Do not reply but make certain you keep everything.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Sounds like they need to learn some people and management skills before going on an HR course


As others have said, for your own wellbeing draw a line under this now. Don’t engage in argument or discussion, take your sick leave and move on.

 

[SteveHa]

I'd be tempted to reply and inform them that harassment is illegal.

 

[awkwardflower]

Thanks for your replies. Unfortunately they have gone now beyond unreasonable. I told them that I don't want to go back, and I want to use my remaining holidays after my sickness period ends, and now they claim I don't have any holidays left!

I think that's a lie, I have 28 days holidays (this includes bank holidays?), that's calculated per month, right? So that's 2.333 days/month, isn't it? So for a 4 month period I have 9.333 days, is it correct? I took some over Xmas but even if it includes bank holidays, I have some left so they are now just lying. I want to tell them that the reason I don't want to go back is their hostile attitude but I don't know how they'd react to that.

And then they wrote a long novel of how they find my "breaches of trust" so serious, and they are going to withhold my pay until the "legal matter" is settled. I think that is illegal. Do you think I can do something now?

 

[Newchodge]

What was your start date and when is your end date, how many days' holiday have you taken, including bank holidys - I'll calculate your actual holiday entitlement. Do you get full pay on sick leave? When were you last paid and when is your nest pay date?

 

[awkwardflower]

Wow thanks. My start date was 1st Nov. I took 6 days holidays (including bank holidays). I don't get full pay on sick leave. I was paid on the 25th last and today is my next pay date but they are not going to pay me because they "dispute when my employment actually ends".

 

[Newchodge]

Wow thanks. My start date was 1st Nov. I took 6 days holidays (including bank holidays). I don't get full pay on sick leave. I was paid on the 25th last and today is my next pay date but they are not going to pay me because they "dispute when my employment actually ends".

When is your termination date - the date your notice expires?

 

[awkwardflower]

28th Feb, according to their original dismissal letter. But then I went on sick leave and they wanted to cut it short so they could ignore the sick pay.

 

[Newchodge]

I calculate, on a 5 day week, you have accrued 9.16 days' leave, so after taking 6 days off you have 3.16 days remaining.

If your sick note has expired, get another one, backdated to the date it ended.

If you don't get paid properly today, ring ACAS and speak to the early conciliation team. Explian you want to bring a tribunal for failure to pay wages and take it from there.

 

[awkwardflower]

Thanks for your help! That's excellent advice!

 

[awkwardflower]

There is an update, as I told them that I believed I have holidays due and I want to take them because I don't feel well enough and I told them that due to the harassment on sick leave made it impossible anyway. I told them withholding pay was illegal and I expected to be paid and everything sorted.

They said that I can't call the shots and it will be decided later how many holidays I have left, because "there is a dispute" about when my employment was actually terminated. They say I fail to understand how employment works, because "I want to set my own work duties, my own working hours, my own wages, my own holidays", and say that I'm being dramatic. Well, sickness is always dramatic a bit I guess, but I just told them I was sick, I offered some help to finish some files, and I want to use my holidays. Am I being the unreasonable one? They are disputing the illness and in my view they are the ones making the drama out of a 2-week line, I just want what I'm due.

As Newchodge suggested, I'm thinking about going back to the GP just in case holidays will not be approved so I can be legally covered by a doctor's note. I don't necessarily want to, as it's only a matter of a few days. They would have to pay less this way even, I don't even understand their treatment. But would I be less defendable without it though? What can they do about these holidays if I don't go back to the doctor?

They say that they will meet their own advisor tomorrow. I hope that they will tell them that there's nothing they can do but just pay me and that it will be settled soon. It really is making me feel sick! Shall I wait to see what they say after tomorrow, with this call to ACAS?

 

[Newchodge]

If you are not well wnough to work you get a doctor's note. Your unused holiday must be paid in lieu of you taking it.

If you were due to be paid today and you have not been paid, I ould ring ACAS today. Don't have any further communication with them, except sending the sick note.

 

[awkwardflower]

Thanks again! The thought of seeing them again does fill me with panic and dread, but I already asked for the holidays. Can this not be attacked later, that despite already requesting it, I decided to go back to the doctor in the end? Is it not proof that I'm a skillful liar to GPs? Or am I being paranoid now....? But that's also a symptom isn't it haha! Argh.

I think my actions are quite clearly of an intimidated employee's and any reasonable tribunal would think so, surely? I don't know. I just want this to end already.

 

[Newchodge]

You asked for holidays because you expected to be well enough to work but could not face the bullying. You went back to the doctor when you realised you were still ill.

 

[awkwardflower]

That sounds reasonable. Thanks for your advice again!

 

[awkwardflower]

Today I was waiting for them to reply, since they told me yesterday that they would speak to their advisor but there is radio silence.

I made another doctor's appointment, and rang ACAS, and they said I should write to my employer to pay me for what may be an unlawful deduction of wages, within 7 - 14 days. Is this advisable? I'd prefer not to contact them again, but it may be better than an Early Conciliaton claim?

The other thing about the doctor's appointment... I will also need to contact my employer, to let them know that I no longer want to take holidays, but I will provide a sick note instead. I think I made a stupid mistake, for asking for the holidays in the first place, it just p*ssed them off further. The fact is that I couldn't face going back so I had to think of something, and I didn't want to go back to the doctor's just to cover a couple of days, and since my employment is ending there is no use for a line any further than those couple of days anyway. It sounds like I'm faking my illness but what can you do, if they are the source of the illness...?

Maybe I'm fine otherwise, but having to see them or deal with them or reading their harrassing emails is what makes me sick? I get heart palpitations every time I get a new email now.... Am I in the wrong? You can't expect me to return to work after 5 threatening emails sent during 2 weeks of sickness periods, surely? Because of this, I'm reluctant to let them know, and if I get a line, I don't have to use it, see if they accept the holidays first. But I doubt that would happen, so I don't really know what to do.

I'm so sorry for the nagging. I really want this to end! Thanks for your advices so far too.

 

[JeffreyMills]

You do not have to actually make a tribunal claim. But you do need to keep speaking to ACAS, if you don’t receive wages sue to you then enter early conciliation. ACAS will liaise with your employer, and try to get them to pay what you are owed. If the early conciliation fails, and you are still owed wages, you can decide if you want to make a claim.
They are very likely to pay up before you get near a claim

 

[awkwardflower]

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I will keep talking to ACAS. Today should be the last day of my employment. I have another doctor's appointment later, I should get a second note to cover for my last days instead of holidays used.

The plan is that once I got it, I will let my employer know about it and will tell them what ACAS told me about the unlawful deduction of wages, then we'll see what happens. I really hope they pay, the last thing I'll need is the further stress of having to make claims and fight. I'm just looking for a new job like crazy and maybe register as self-employed so I can take freelance work too.

 

[The Byre]

I will let my employer know about it and will tell them what ACAS told me about the unlawful deduction of wages,

This is best done in writing and in the form of a physical letter sent through the Royal Mail. Keep it short, sharp and factual. There should be absolutely no subjective comments, such as "and I hope that you will . . ." or anything like that.

 

[awkwardflower]

I understand why to keep it short, sharp and factual, but why use the post? Is there something wrong with sending an email?

 

[awkwardflower]

So uh, the GP gave me a lot longer than my actual employment period. Does it suggest I misinformed the GP? I just wanted to cover the last couple of days. I'm scared to show it to my employer for further accusations and I don't want to harm my doctor's practice in case of any legal action! Help, what do I do? Does it matter that I won't be employed for the rest of my sickness period? Will it further trigger my employer? I don't demand to be paid any further than the end of Feb but I got a line until end of March. Is this going to be a problem?

 

[Mark Laurie]

If your GP gave you longer sick leave he obviously feels you need it.

 

[awkwardflower]

But the GP gave me longer because I told them I'll leave the job anyway and I think he thought I'm only just starting to spend my notice period....

I told my GP I received 5 emails from my employer throughout my first 2 weeks of sickness and they don't believe me at all, and that they are bullying and threatening with legal action so the GP said it's fine, don't go back there, and work issues are very common, and signed me off until 1st April. I was confused but I didn't correct them as I thought the more days off, the more securely I'm covered.... but I started to panic at home, phoned the doctor's office back and told them I won't need it this long, only after 1st March, but they said it's OK, I can go back to work whenever I like, I can just tell my employer until when I will need sick pay until.

I notified my employer about this, but I feel that they will accuse me for lying to the GP, although my man says if anything it helps because my condition seems now more serious than seemed. But I'm scared now that my employer will press on with their legal action and it will be a mess.... I'm afraid that they will contact my GP who will be in trouble for signing me off longer than my employment period, or it will put me into trouble for "lying" to the GP about how long I will need the line for. Because my employer's starting position is that they don't accept I was sick at all, they didn't accept the first note either, and their starting position is that I'm a lazy, slacking liar. And I don't want them to make me seem like that in the eye of the law.

I don't want to claim benefits and I don't want to use the sick note for longer than to cover the rest of my employment period. Is that going to cause me trouble?

 

[awkwardflower]

UPDATE: my employers already replied with an email they apparently sent yesterday, following an appointment with their HR expert.

Now they are suggesting that I end my employment a month earlier! And invoice them as a freelancer for all the remaining days I worked in February.

I don't want accept that because I only got told about their dismissal at the end of January, then I should have been paid off for my notice period, and also all my untaken holidays. So either way I think it's another dirty blackmail offer to avoid paying me SSP.

Should I phone ACAS again? What can they do? Can they really contact my GP without my consent? What can they do? I'm sorry for the saga....

 

[JeffreyMills]

They actually put that in writing!!!! I seriously doubt a HR advisor told them to do that.
They can contact your GP without your consent, however your GP will not reply.
Please contact ACAS and update them, start early conciliation. Also they could do with a laugh on a Friday. They may be professional to you, I guarantee they will be laughing their socks off at your soon to be former employer’s blunders.
Don’t respond to the employer.