Europe should we stay in or get out?
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Given your loyal adherence throughout this thread to the misinformation and outright lies of the Leave campaign, you'll understand if nobody believes you.
Why would it be unlawful? I mean, I've given up reading about it all now, but it was an advisory referendum with a very narrow margin and there's now evidence that the outcome might be different with a second one; would it cancel out the first? Of course not but with a stalemate of opinion the government would be remiss to move forward with a clearly damaging decision.
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Boy, am I tired of hearing about how Leavers are: 1. Stupid, 2. Bigots or 3. Uneducated.
These aren't arguments. They're insults.
Leavers have a case.
1. That there has been too much immigration to this island, by people who don't share the locals Christian values, resulting in diminished access to, and lower quality, services.
Those who are affected most by this are those who can't 'go private', in schooling or health. They compete with these immigrants for work, who, because they are desperate and come from much poorer countries, will work for much less than the locals. They'll sleep 4 to a room if they have to.
This is great for the residents of Islington and Notting HIll Gate and not for the residents of Hackney and Newham.
The EU contributes to this as much as non-EU immigrants. I have read that there have been 300, 000 net immigrants to the UK this past year. You can't keep doing that and expect the locals to suck it up.
These words you have been taught in school like "racist", "sexist" "fascist" and "homophobe" are just stones to hurl in a cultural war. They're not a substitute for reason. They are propaganda in a long game.
2. The EU is a deceitful and corrupt project which proceeds by stealth and autocracy. Try to object as an individual, a local parliament or even as a head of state and you will be ignored.
There is an agenda. There is a plan: 'ever closer union'. Ah, but who will run this union? Who profits from it the most?
I'm trying to think which member states objections to some new significant legislation would count at this point. Probably German, France, Italy, and Luxembourg. Not any of the rest; they're enmeshed, and they're economically moribund and thus don't have the leverage.
It's a bit like a slow seduction leading to rape; because it's occurring over 40 years the locals don't notice the loss of motor function.
These aren't arguments. They're insults.
Leavers have a case.
1. That there has been too much immigration to this island, by people who don't share the locals Christian values, resulting in diminished access to, and lower quality, services.
Those who are affected most by this are those who can't 'go private', in schooling or health. They compete with these immigrants for work, who, because they are desperate and come from much poorer countries, will work for much less than the locals. They'll sleep 4 to a room if they have to.
This is great for the residents of Islington and Notting HIll Gate and not for the residents of Hackney and Newham.
The EU contributes to this as much as non-EU immigrants. I have read that there have been 300, 000 net immigrants to the UK this past year. You can't keep doing that and expect the locals to suck it up.
These words you have been taught in school like "racist", "sexist" "fascist" and "homophobe" are just stones to hurl in a cultural war. They're not a substitute for reason. They are propaganda in a long game.
2. The EU is a deceitful and corrupt project which proceeds by stealth and autocracy. Try to object as an individual, a local parliament or even as a head of state and you will be ignored.
There is an agenda. There is a plan: 'ever closer union'. Ah, but who will run this union? Who profits from it the most?
I'm trying to think which member states objections to some new significant legislation would count at this point. Probably German, France, Italy, and Luxembourg. Not any of the rest; they're enmeshed, and they're economically moribund and thus don't have the leverage.
It's a bit like a slow seduction leading to rape; because it's occurring over 40 years the locals don't notice the loss of motor function.
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I don't think anybody has said leavers are any of the above. It is just inferred from the opinions expressed that, on the face of it, the opinion may come across as that.
It is just the same that most leavers regard all "remainers" as Eton Mess eating Fops. Which clearly isn't the case
Let's be clear, as an atheist, I have a problem with religion on the whole. However, that does not mean I have to be prejudiced regarding religions. I would much rather see, and I accept that this may not ever possible, the eradication of religion. But this is far greater argument
I can assure you, that you will not find anyone more working class than myself, stemming from a Welsh Coal mining background. The fact that I am working class, does not mean I want to stay working class, every life should be about progression, not just for the individual but for society as a whole.
Nigel is that you?
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Lets be honest, these immigrants are not exactly the EU's fault. The reasons for a lot of migrants coming here, is the result of "Illegal Wars", which on the whole were not started by EU.
Like it or not, "We" as a sovereign nation, played a role in destabilizing the middle east, and as part of our history have had a huge hand to play in destabilizing that area on the whole.
Our Imperialist past, has had far greater negative impacts, than we really care to acknowledge .
Yes I am uncomfortable as everyone else, but I also accept that we played a part in causing issues, so we also need to accept some responsibility and do what we can to fix it.
The irony here is that we seem to want to justify events in our modern time on historical events , i.e. 2 Word Wars and 1 World Cup.
But the reality is as a nation as a whole, despite the fact I truly believe we have had really positive effects on the planet with Science, Technology, Arts and literature . We have had less desirable effects elsewhere.
I am not saying this generation has to repay the debts, but we can work at it
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It's not rich, it's just disingenuous for anyone as vocal as the people in this thread (on either side) to suggest that if their side lost they'd quietly accept it. Fact of life, bud
Your love of evidence has been notable so far by its absence, which would imply you haven't read anything yourself, so as john says, it's a bit rich to assume others haven't read anything.
The documents - and one of the favourites of the Leave campaigners is 'the 5 presidents report' where they read the bullet point summaries at the end and misinterpret the whole thing - do not refer to us as we have (for a little while at least) opt outs and a sweet deal. Just because you've hyped yourself up into believing there's a conspiracy theory about Borg assimilation or whatever, doesn't mean the real world has to take that seriously. Sorry.
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I'm tired of hearing Leave voters complain that *all* Remain voters are labelling *all* Leave voters as such. I guess that's life.
First of all, can you define 'too much immigration' without reference to the lies of the Leave campaign about pressure on social services? Probably not.
And who gives a damn about 'Christian' values? Christian values includes persecution of the LGBT community, why would anyone want to share that? Besides, 'my' country, Great Britain, now has an atheist majority, so 'Christian' values are a minority and, quite rightly, decreasing.
Suck what up? The net benefit these immigrants provide to our economy and society? Or are you saying "you can't expect the locals to bottle up their prejudices forever"? Because that's how it reads.
What on earth are you talking about?
No it isn't.
No there isn't.
Right so you don't really understand the legislative process in the EU. Gotcha.
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D
Deleted member 59730
Actually yes. Because I do not trust the UK government with anything important. The UK is now an Oligarchy using the definition that more notice is taken of a few rich people than the majority. If the UK were truly a democracy it might be worth defending but it is not.
Despite the vote we still have a Monarchy. Boris, as mayor of London, took more notice of Soveriegn funds from Bahrain, Qatar and Kuwait than he did of ordinary London citizens.
Both Google's boss and Microsoft's are regular guests at Number 10. In the EU they are more likely to get visited by the tax police.
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I blame Cameron for most of this mess as he said before the campaigns got under way that whilst he wanted to remain in Europe it wouldn't be the end of the world if we decided to leave and he would carry out the wishes of the people whatever they decided.
If from that moment on Cameron & Co had conducted an honest and honourable campaign they would probably still have lost but Cameron would have still had the blessing of the country to carry on as PM as he most certainly was the best man for the job.
We are now left with the situation where the Government knows the will of the people but both of the people probably best qualified to carry it out being Cameron and Osborne have ruled themselves out leaving a choice between a selection of people that none of the population really want.
I don't know what it is about Europe that causes so many rifts in the Conservative Party but this isn't the first time that "Europe" has ripped the party apart and I have a sneaking suspicion that it won't be the last
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D
Deleted member 226268
.
We are all so LUCKY for that
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nd-for-tory-leader-he-announces-a7110921.html
If this Dumb Jerk from the Eton Hooray-Henry club ever became Prime Minister, we would all be stuffed.
However, an even worse incumbent installation may yet happen.
.....and that would be EVEN WORSE.
Future of the UK looks bleak
.
We are all so LUCKY for that
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nd-for-tory-leader-he-announces-a7110921.html
If this Dumb Jerk from the Eton Hooray-Henry club ever became Prime Minister, we would all be stuffed.
However, an even worse incumbent installation may yet happen.
.....and that would be EVEN WORSE.
Future of the UK looks bleak
.
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Presumably the next time will be when the negotiations have concluded and what is on offer is:
access to the EU market
in return for
the four freedoms: services capital, goods and people;
acceptance of all EU regulations;
payment of a fee to the EU which is higher than what we currently pay
At that point there may be another referendum to see if the country wants to accept it or if we want no deal with the EU. Or the government may state that it is not worth the cost and look to cancel the Article 50 application. Which the EU may, or may not, agree to.
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R
Root 66 Woodshop
Personally, I couldn't give a toss whether we stayed or not - obviously we're not now... but at the end of the day the Government... our Government is ran by someone perhaps not so dissimilar to Kim Jong Un (but from Brussels Heck it might even be Jean Claude Van Damme for all we bloody know! LOL! imagine the irony)... - i.e. with their lil pinky hovering over some special little button that'll either:
A. Crash all banks scuppering the UK of it's monies...
or B. blow this lil island to smithereens...
Either way - we're f****d whether we stay or go!
Heck it might even be Jean Claude Van Damme for all we bloody know! LOL! imagine the irony)... - i.e. with their lil pinky hovering over some special little button that'll either:A. Crash all banks scuppering the UK of it's monies...
or B. blow this lil island to smithereens...
Either way - we're f****d
whether we stay or go!
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I tried replying to this a moment ago but my hard drive crashed from an irony error and hypocrisy.dll got corrupted as it was being accessed too much.
I'm sure it's fine now. So, you were talking about the Remain campaign being dishones<<<error:0x8f533ec1 CARRIER LOST>>>
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If Britain has a vibrant economy and a confident people, it will weather this.
If it's cowed, economically and morally, then it should go back to being and EU b**ch, keep trying tricks to make enough cash to pay down the national debt, whinge about the manoeuvres of the Brussels aristos and await the inevitable Event Of Doom that will trigger the collapse of the EU anyway
e.g.
- Greece saying "s*d it" and reneging on its interest payments;
- A far-right government getting into power in a member state and exiting forcefully, creating a domino effect;
- A scandal finally erupting over where the taxpayers money is going;
- A member state going bankrupt;
- Another depression, which triggers more borrowing by members, followed by q.e. and more 'austerity', until three member state break away at once.
The EU is all about 'ever closer union' and 'ever greater enlargement' and 'ever more regulation'.
If you go along with that, you, as a politician, get power without responsibility and money without accountability. If you expect to change this course, history shows you will fail.
The response of the EU to any crisis it to try to increase its reach. It does not learn, because it's not interested in learning; only expanding. It's become an independent entity in itself.
If it's cowed, economically and morally, then it should go back to being and EU b**ch, keep trying tricks to make enough cash to pay down the national debt, whinge about the manoeuvres of the Brussels aristos and await the inevitable Event Of Doom that will trigger the collapse of the EU anyway
e.g.
- Greece saying "s*d it" and reneging on its interest payments;
- A far-right government getting into power in a member state and exiting forcefully, creating a domino effect;
- A scandal finally erupting over where the taxpayers money is going;
- A member state going bankrupt;
- Another depression, which triggers more borrowing by members, followed by q.e. and more 'austerity', until three member state break away at once.
The EU is all about 'ever closer union' and 'ever greater enlargement' and 'ever more regulation'.
If you go along with that, you, as a politician, get power without responsibility and money without accountability. If you expect to change this course, history shows you will fail.
The response of the EU to any crisis it to try to increase its reach. It does not learn, because it's not interested in learning; only expanding. It's become an independent entity in itself.
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He's called Tim Jong-un.
For those not in the loop on this party with barely 1% of The Commons, yet about 10% of The Lords. He was formerly known as Timothy Farroon, leader of the former Liberal Democrats. He liked to invoke the film, 300, but just came across as an angry lime.
#WeAreThe48 - reminds me of something from V for Vendetta or other rebels without a cause.
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He's called Tim Jong-un.
For those not in the loop on this party with barely 1% of The Commons, yet about 10% of The Lords. He was formerly known as Timothy Farroon, leader of the former Liberal Democrats. He liked to invoke the film, 300, but just came across as an angry lime.
#WeAreThe48 - reminds me of something from V for Vendetta or other rebels without a cause.
Your post reminds me of someone who has completely lost the plot
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Then you will have no problem deconstructing it with criticism, rather than resorting to slander.
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Ah yes, the incredibly powerful "I can't offer a valid argument or justify my position on the topic, so I'll call this poster a troll instead" response. As insightful as ever, Ian.
If there were an emoticon for a slow clap, this is where I'd use it.
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Don't try to get pedantic, that was criticism. If you want deconstructive criticism, fine - you just posted the equivalent of "HE'S A POO-POO HEAD!", drawing in all sorts of implications and (ironically) slanderous slurs against his character based on what one can only presume to be your personal dislike of him or his party.
Let's go a tiny little bit further, shall we?
So you see the other half of the country - arguably now the majority - who are mostly upset because this particular display of democracy was carried out upon a campaign of deliberate and unyielding deceit, as having no valid grievance?
Perhaps you haven't been following the events over the past few weeks.
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Absolutely.
Failing to discuss the topic under discussion, while posting a photo-shopped picture of a politician superimposed on a picture of a tyrant is not a contribution to any debate. It looks like you've lost the plot of the debate.
I thought most people would have understood the shorthand.
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It is strange that you seem to have decided what 'half the country has made their mind up based upon', don't ya think?
The headlines have worked on you, haven't they.
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Says who? 40,000 odd protesters against democracy, or the "millions" who signed the rigged petition? 40,000 You do understand that's less than 0.03% of those that voted to remain. That doesn't make a majority of anything.
Two lies come to mind that, unlike the remains "predictions", have come true already.
1 - I shall remain as PM no matter what the outcome and carry out the wishes of the people.
2 - If the event of a Brexit there will be a emergency budget within weeks.
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S
ShirleyM
@Toby Willows
Don't forget that:
3 - Article 50 was to be triggered the day after the referendum if we voted Leave
4 - We would be 'isolated' in the world as nobody would want to trade with us
5 - I won't mention WWIII or pensions being slashed. The government may still be able to wangle those.
Any more, anyone?
Don't forget that:
3 - Article 50 was to be triggered the day after the referendum if we voted Leave
4 - We would be 'isolated' in the world as nobody would want to trade with us
5 - I won't mention WWIII or pensions being slashed. The government may still be able to wangle those.
Any more, anyone?
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R
Root 66 Woodshop
Toby -You're talking about Politicians - all they do is lie! The whole Government is one big conspiracy and lie to us "non-governmentality folk" - we're just country bumkin hicks to them - no matter who you are in this country if you don't work for the Govnerment you're screwed.
Whether we stayed or not it no longer matters - the UK is no longer classed as it was, "Great Britain" because this country is far from "Great" majority reasons lead to the Government cocking everything up since they were given the power to the run country... and lie to the people that they govern.
Votes were lost - personally I like to believe that they weren't lost - but "misplaced" - perhaps if those "misplaced" votes had not been "misplaced" then we may have still been in the EU - oh wait a minute... we're still in the EU... and probably will be because of those "misplaced" votes that unfortunately were "misplaced"...
Join the true non-governmentality group Bumkin.com and you're bound to appreciate the simplicities in life without having to worry about government...
Fwar..
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