Employing in Philippines - I'll never hire in UK again.

[Dawg]

Of course economics plays a massive part, but that isn't the point being made. The point is that outsourcing can actually protect jobs as well as cost jobs. Outsourcing assembly for instance could mean that production can remain in place while assembly closes down. So YES it could mean that the asembly jobs are lost, but the manufacturing jobs have been protected. it is no good arguing that the production jobs were lost so that is bad, because the alternative would have been to close the plant entirely.

Hopefully that illustrates what i am trying to say, in that outsourcing can actiually prevent total closure of businesses.

Possible but a bit unlikely. 'Just in time' production strategy requires production and assembly to be close to each other and separation by outsourcing just one to another continent would throw this.
Of course not everyone uses 'just in time' but the fact that assembly (for instance) is cheaper overseas would suggest production would be too.
You are right that it might prevent total closure of the business as HQ might well stay here because of family and cultural reasons, although this in turn will be influenced by the tax regime; Boots is now an offshore producer, assembler and corporation with only a domestic retail presence. Corporate HQ moved for tax reasons.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

OI was using it as an example. It could just as easily be support outsourced, sales in the Uk etc
I am just saying that outsourcing part of a companies overall tasks can safeguard UK jobs.

 

[RadiusBPO]

When in the trifle biz all the fruit came from Chile pretty much, this is something about their climate they can grow fruit year round and kept us in supply.

Without outsourcing the growing of the fruit we would only be able to make them as long as there was British stock. This could be possible but we'd need to make more farms and perhaps take away land use for livestock or grains. Most British fruit is eaten fresh and not used as an ingredient so there would need to be a massive upscale and I don't think we'd like the farms to produce less meat etc.
Although possible I just don't ever see that happening, prices would just go up and poorer people wouldn't be able to afford their Easter trifle.

Without that outsourcing the factory would have to reduce production therefore reducing staffing levels. Because they were able to source cheap fruit it means the British Dairy farmers were selling more dairy, there was a small local factory employing 50 people just producing sponges for the trifles, and 500 people at the trifle factory making cream, custard, QC, accounting, purchasing, managing.

I really cannot see that working if all fruit had to be from the UK, basically just because of the limited land we have.

 

[bdw]

Fruit (or food that we cannot grow ourselves) in not a good comparison.

 

[MASSEY]

I think fruit is a good example.

The businesses from outside of the Uk think, "hey lets sell some fruit in the Uk".

So they do, they grow it in their own country for pennies and then sell it to us Brits and ten fold what it costs them to grow it at.

They then pay tax in this country, and the reason they have done this is because they know the UK is a good place to do business.

For as many people in the UK there are that like to outsource to save, there are people abroad looking to sell here to make serious money.

It's all swings and roundabouts.

Certain people on this forum think it would be ok and acceptable if the people in the UK cut themselves off from the outside world and kept wealth here. If we were to do that we would be ruined.

 

[bdw]

Yes, but I understood that the thread was about employing people in the Philippines as opposed to importing stuff from abroad. Fact is we are not self sufficient, we need to import certain things and there is nothing we we can do about that.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

So then to those that state 'outsourcing services is evil' what do you suggest? What is your alternative?

If the alternative is that the business closes (because believe me that is the stark reality for many small business service providers) then how can it bo wrong?

What is the difference between buying in fruit and buying in labour? fruit IS available all year round in the Uk, ANY FRUIT! but it is not available because of the cost. now you can dress that fact up as much as you like, but I am telling you that fruit can be force grown anywhere in the world.

SO you are saying on one hand that it is Ok to import fruit due to economic restrictions, but NOT OK to import labour ? A little bit of hypocrysy there don't you think?

Some people absolutely point balank refuse to grow their businesses because of UK employment laws and other red tape. This is no different in my eyes, to people refusing to force grow fruit veg, flowers etc because of costs.

Now convince me I am wrong

 

[bdw]

I think most people would agree that you are wrong. Growing all types of fruit and vegetables at sustainable levels in the UK is impossible for both economic and climate reasons. There really is no sensible option other than to import it.

.

 

[Podge]

Some people absolutely point balank refuse to grow their businesses because of UK employment laws and other red tape.

That begs the question then why did they go into business in the first place. I can understand businesses being cautious but to say they refuse to grow is stretching it a bit imo.

 

[adventurelife]

That begs the question then why did they go into business in the first place. I can understand businesses being cautious but to say they refuse to grow is stretching it a bit imo.

I am afraid that is correct. Go on any business forum or to business networking meeting and it will be full of one person companies refusing to grow and recruit.

I totally disagree with is as I think they are taking more risk staying as one person than as an employer if they do want a business but it is reality.

Also many go into business just to take control of there own lives and do not want the hassle and bull of being and employer and just want a lifestyle and that I do accept and respect.

Which brings us round to this thread, if you make it difficult to employ in one place businesses will just employ in another place. It is globalization and it cannot be reversed.

 

[Jacksonii]

You wrote so many words, which makes me have no time to read all of them. So basicly what you mean is to work in Philippines is better than UK right?

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I think most people would agree that you are wrong. Growing all types of fruit and vegetables at sustainable levels in the UK is impossible for both economic and climate reasons. There really is no sensible option other than to import it.

.

Thanks for telling me exactly what I wanted to hear So you are saying that it is acceptable to outsource for economic reasons! (your words) .

If the options are close down, or outsource, wouldn't you agree that outsourcing is a 'sensible option'.

The point I am making is that under your rules it is unnacceptable to pay £5 per punnet for force grown strawberries (and despite you stating it is not possible it is possible (maybe not practical but that was not what i said) to force grow pretty much any plant anywhere in the world.

SO it is accceptable to put out of business force growers (the biggest force growing industry here is flowers) for 'economic reasons' (importing from across the globe ) but NOT acceptable to outsource services in other industries.

Can't you see that this is just double standards?

For the record, can you state at which point 'economic reasons' are acceptable, and at which point outsourcing become s ''sensible option'?

Because when the dust settles it is all about money. and if something isn't workable here, then businesses outsource it.

 

[bdw]

Importing and outsourcing are two different thing but then you already knew that when you made the post did you not?

maybe not practical but that was not what i said

Then it's not worth considering.

.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

There is no economical difference between importing and outsourcing absolutely none whatsoever. And as it was an economical case you were putting up, surely you must see this.

Now if it is a MORAL case you are putting up then i agree that possibly importing and outsourcing are different beasts.

Not sure whay you say that 'not practical' is not worth considering because you are actually stating that outsourcing is fine if it is 'impractical' in this country. Stating that completly undermines your argument.

e.g. I have £8 per hour to employ someone to carry out this task...
The cost of employing someone in the UK would be £8.05
It is imp[ractical to employ someone in the Uk
Outsourcing is now acceptable under your formula!

Thanks for finally agreeing with us then that for practical reasons outsourcing is completely acceptable.

I love it when plan comes together

 

[JohnnyCash]

Now if it is a MORAL case you are putting up then i agree that possibly importing and outsourcing are different beasts.

You could make an argument that in the moral case, outsourcing a job is better. Outsourcing 2 jobs from the UK probably creates 3 jobs abroad (working slower writing in a second language). So there is an extra person in work right away.

And employing people in Manila frees them from working in a dangerous factory or some other nasty job, and might actually be the difference between being able to eat that week or not. If you don't hire someone in UK its going to make no difference to whether they have a roof over their head, food on the table, a car, a plasma tv, a Spanish holiday... the government will take care of all of that

Just depends whether you feel you owe people anything purely because they're born in the same country you were. Me personally, I don't.

 

[bdw]

Thanks for finally agreeing with us then that for practical reasons outsourcing is completely acceptable.

Did I agree with you? I don't think so and I haven't a clue what you are on about here. Actually I think you are on one of your stirring missions again but I don't have time right now. Perhaps some other time.

Just depends whether you feel you owe people anything purely because they're born in the same country you were. Me personally, I don't.

Yes, you have made that quite clear more than once.

.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

BDW, yep, I am teasing you. The fact is as posted. there is no right and wrong with regard outsourcing. Thgere is no 'loser' in the UK because that job would not have ever been created in the UK.

here is my take on things.

Company outsources work
company informs clients it outsources work
client decides if they want to work with company that outsources work.


Need to say that for the purpose of the argument 'outsourcing' refers also to actually having an office and employed people in a country other than the UK, as opposed to taking work and simply passing it on to someone else to do, and skimming the difference .

there are many companies in the Uk who outsource within the UK.

 

Just depends whether you feel you owe people anything purely because they're born in the same country you were. Me personally, I don't.

Not even a tiddly bit for all the privileges you enjoyed growing up in the UK.

Earl

 

[adventurelife]

Not even a tiddly bit for all the privileges you enjoyed growing up in the UK.

Earl

Earl

We all owe the country no one can argue that. Those that went before us paid into the system with blood , tax and sweat so we do all owe the country, all of us who live here.

However, there is also a limit. I have given 15 years to military service and a bucket load of tax from working and running businesses.

I have to admit I am getting to the stage where running businesses and employing people in the UK is starting to grind me down. I must be getting old

UK loss other countries gain and as much as I will always have business here I am afraid the loyalty is slipping away and I am not the only one doing the same!

 

[JohnnyCash]

I think I've paid more than my fair share of tax to cover the education I've had and so on. So no, I don't feel like I owe any country anything at all.

 

[Dawg]

Not even a tiddly bit for all the privileges you enjoyed growing up in the UK.

Earl

But Earl, don't you bang on about how we are so rich compared to the Third World, and how we should help the very poor peoiple there?
What better way than to help them on the way to prosperity by employing them?

 

[DeanCo]

Has anyone else given up employing in the UK?

We run a business which involves lots of different websites, so we don't require a physical presence anywhere for it.

Hiring in the UK brings far too many problems, with workers taking <<<profanity removed by mod>>> at every opportunity. You can get people abroad for significantly less money, and in general their work ethic is a lot better. Combine that with significantly lower costs and its a win win (for the employer, not the UK tax man or the UK as a whole...)

Employees here have just gone too far. From recent threads here alone, we've got this guy who was sacked for theft, but now preparing a discrimination case because he's not married...

Then we've got this chap who bad mouthed his boss to anyone who would listen, gets fired... and out comes the "discrimination" card as he's apparently a homosexual. It seems if you're gay, non-white, disabled or of a religious minority you're untouchable in the work place, regardless of your conduct. God help you if you have a one legged gay black Muslim working for you...

I could pick out dozens of threads where the employer is being shafted here but thats not really the aim of this thread... discussing outsourcing out of the UK completely is.

We already outsource extensively, but with most people reporting directly to me or my business partner. A lot of these people are hired on a per job basis.

We're now going to go one step further and hire a full group of people working from the Philippines. They won't be working from an office, they will all be home based but working full time for us.

From a job advert placed on onlinejobs.ph yesterday afternoon (note - you need to pay $50 to sign up there), we have 125 applications already.

We are going to hire one higher end employee with a fair amount of experience, and leave them in charge of 5 or 6 other employees. So we will only interact directly with one of them and let them delegate everything else.

One really good employee will cost 20-30k php a month, with the other 5 costing between 10-15k each. So that leaves us paying 70-105k a month, which is £1000 - £1500 total, for 6 employees. All of these people will be educated to a degree level. Most of them will have better English than a typical school leaver in the UK. All of them will have a better work ethic than someone the job centre could give me.

I can only see more and more internet based jobs going that way. Give the employers all the hassle, expense and risk and combine it with uneducated lazy people who think the world owes them a living and you'll only see more and more go offshore...

Has anyone else successfully went in this direction? Or tried it and switched back?

Do you think its "right" to do this? I don't feel I owe the UK, the taxman or the general public anything, so I'll do whats right for me alone. If its a choice between hiring 6 Brits or buying a Ferrari... well I hope those people know where the nearest benefits office is...

I could not agree more with everything said. What an outstanding post.

 

[bdw]

I could not agree more with everything said. What an outstanding post.

You may see an outstanding post. Sorry, all I see is just a list of bitter generalisations - a cliched rant that makes me shake my head in despair.

• You can get people abroad for significantly less money, and in general their work ethic is a lot better.
• Employees here have just gone too far.
• It seems if you're gay, non-white, disabled or of a religious minority you're untouchable in the work place, regardless of your conduct. God help you if you have a one legged gay black Muslim working for you...
• All of them will have a better work ethic than someone the job centre could give me.
• Give the employers all the hassle, expense and risk and combine it with uneducated lazy people who think the world owes them a living and you'll only see more and more go offshore...
• I don't feel I owe the UK, the taxman or the general public anything, so I'll do whats right for me alone.
• If its a choice between hiring 6 Brits or buying a Ferrari... well I hope those people know where the nearest benefits office is...

 

[workingnomad]

I agree, an outstanding post, not bitter or cliched, just telling it how it is.

 

[bdw]

I cannot understand why anyone who thinks they owe the taxman nothing and who has such a low opinion of their fellow countrymen does not move to one of these promised lands themselves. I am sure you would love it.

Why would you want to continue to live in a country with a population of lazy, uneducated good for nothings when you could be over there on your philanthropic missions to help the inhabitants?

.

 

[gmoto]

Why would you want to continue to live in a country with a population of lazy, uneducated good for nothings when you could be over there on your philanthropic missions to help the inhabitants?

Given the choice, would quite like too actually.
Unfortunately I'll have to make my new business in the UK a fair bit more successful before I could manage that.

My parents did VSO before I was born. They were assigned to be teachers and this gave them a love for the vocation which they seen lost when they came back to the UK.
The kids they were teaching really WANTED to learn and WANTED to work the hardest they could, because they were in a privileged position which would allow they to make real progress for themselves and their family.
While in the UK you find kids who PLAN to be on the dole, because it's doing just fine for their parents.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I cannot understand why anyone who thinks they owe the taxman nothing and who has such a low opinion of their fellow countrymen does not move to one of these promised lands themselves. I am sure you would love it.

Why would you want to continue to live in a country with a population of lazy, uneducated good for nothings when you could be over there on your philanthropic missions to help the inhabitants?

.

because until 14 months ago I had a mother in law dying of dementia, and oddly enough my wife kinda wanted to be close to her.

We also have an 11 year old daughter who again oddly enough, we believe we owe some stability to and that she should have her formative years and education not shattered becauuse of selfish acts by her parents.

It is easy to engage mouth before operating brain, and I agree that in theoery what you say is good, but taken to extreme, I bet you have a load of foreign made goods in your house, why not dump them and get Blighty built? Or alternatively go and live with the people who made them

I am pulling your tail here but the solution is somewhere between your position and the position of the OP.

HOW can it be right for benefit claimants to get £600 a week cash? and no council tax, no rent etc.

 

[bdw]

We also have an 11 year old daughter who again oddly enough, we believe we owe some stability to and that she should have her formative years and education not shattered becauuse of selfish acts by her parents.

No actually what you want for your eleven year old is a decent British education in a British school. But then when you think about maybe that is where all of these Brits learn to be lazy, good for nothing benefit claimants? Maybe if she was educated in the Philippines she would learn to be one of these better people?

.

 

[gmoto]

No actually what you want for your eleven year old is a decent British education in a British school. But then when you think about maybe that is where all of these Brits learn to be lazy, good for nothing benefit claimants? Maybe if she was educated in the Philippines she would learn to be one of these better people?

If I had kids I'd worry about them being taught in British schools. I wouldn't consider you really get a 'decent education' from them - more due to the attitudes of much of the other students, than the teaching it's self.
I think I'd prefer to live in a country with lower cost of living where I could afford to (no doubt would have to) send them to a decent 'ex-pay' private school.
Also gives them a good perspective on the world to my mind.

 

[Dawg]

No actually what you want for your eleven year old is a decent British education in a British school. But then when you think about maybe that is where all of these Brits learn to be lazy, good for nothing benefit claimants? Maybe if she was educated in the Philippines she would learn to be one of these better people?

.

Consider yourself corrected Old Welsh Guy. What you actually want and what you say you want seem not to be the same.
Thank goodness help is at hand.....

 

[bdw]

Yaaaaaawwwwwn!

.

 

[Dawg]

Childish response. Will I get a 'wha'eva' next?

It is a valid point: what makes you think that you know what someone else actually wants for their child, especially as they have just said something different? It's just you know better, is it?

Just asking..

 

[bdw]

Whatever!

Buy BDWs chewy websites - with added catnip!

.

 

[MASSEY]

No actually what you want for your eleven year old is a decent British education in a British school.
.

Sorry BDW but i recall you had quite a few websites hosted with a "GERMAN" company.

So you feel as though giving your money to a country that has the best economy in Europe is a good idea?

Whats wrong with British hosts, they all do the same thing?

 

[adventurelife]

BDW

I am local to you less than 1 hours drive I come from very similar backgrounds. Wake up it is a global world and economy. If you agree with it or not it is irrelevant because it is fact and no matter if we agree or disagree that is not going change anything.

The only way Scotland or the UK is going to have a chance is by adapting to the global situations and making sure we are up there with the best.

The past is the past and it is not coming back. You may be able to survive as a 1 man show but some of us are trying to build something bigger and employee people , something you are keen on.

Opinions are just opinions but reality is much much harder.

Happy to go for a beer and talk crap.

Regards

Peter

 

[JohnnyCash]

The only way Scotland or the UK is going to have a chance is by adapting to the global situations and making sure we are up there with the best.

Don't see that happening any time soon... Scotland has zero to offer potential employers working on a global scale. Its a toilet of a country.

 

[adventurelife]

Don't see that happening any time soon... Scotland has zero to offer potential employers working on a global scale. Its a toilet of a country.

Totally stupid comment that adds zero to the conversation and does you no credit.

Have you ran a business in Scotland? I would guess not but I will not make assumptions but your comment could make me make a few

 

[JohnnyCash]

Have you ran a business in Scotland?

Yes I have, until I seen sense and took it elsewhere. Nothing like getting 200 applicants from the job center, and about 190 of them blatantly just trying to tick a box of "looking for employment".

 

[adventurelife]

Yes I have, until I seen sense and took it elsewhere. Nothing like getting 200 applicants from the job center, and about 190 of them blatantly just trying to tick a box of "looking for employment".

Speak more

What business, give us a name , how did it go? Obviously not to well as you hoped, have you got out?

I have been in over 100 countries and never found one to be what i would class as a toilet so it is an interesting phrase from someone running a business.

 

[JohnnyCash]

Speak more

What business, give us a name , how did it go? Obviously not to well as you hoped, have you got out?

I have been in over 100 countries and never found one to be what i would class as a toilet so it is an interesting phrase from someone running a business.

I was born in Scotland, grew up there and lived there for 20 years.

The business itself was going fine, but the quality of life in scotland is relatively poor in comparison to hundreds of alternatives... the business was web based so there was n real reason to stay.

Bad weather, poor lifestyle quality, high tax, constant red tape in business, and a work shy population. Combine all of those and I'll go elsewhere, thanks.