Post your case here

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

That's great Frauke. If we can keep this for the PAYE specific cases here so that anyone visiting can build up a picture of the scale fo the problem for the 1.4 million cases being handled at the moment - thanks

 

[toniyoung]

Another case where a man has received incapacity benefit for many years. He had a very part time job in 2008/9 and then worked a few more hours in 2009/10. He was on two NHS payrolls one with a 647L tax code and the second on BR tax code. In 2008/9 he worked a few hours on each payroll. In 2009/10 he worked more hours only on the main payroll.
THe incapacity benefit as usual was never taxed.

He has a demand only for 2009/10 - I am suggesting that we try the ESC (letter 1a) but amend it to say that they knew about the incapacity benefit and had a tax underpayment in 2008/9 arisen they would have had an underpayment to demand back. So failed to act on the information more than once and would have allowed the arrears to build up over two years?

 

[toniyoung]

One of my cases rang the tax office to see if they had dealt with her letter of 30th Oct and was told not to expect a reply until January!
I guess at least this means they are not sending out the automatic rejection though.

 

[frauke]

That's great Frauke. If we can keep this for the PAYE specific cases here so that anyone visiting can build up a picture of the scale fo the problem for the 1.4 million cases being handled at the moment - thanks

Of course, but it did occur to me - surely the HMRC should sort this out with the employer, not the employee. But there does not seem to be any mechanisms for this any more. Since moving to online the HMRC have spend the last few years becoming less and less accessible and seem to have be preparing to do everything online. They have been doing this instead of doing their job (which you have been pointing out on many of your comments).

I remember a time when if an accountant or an employer etc made a mistake it was a simple matter of sending a letter with the correcting paperwork. Sometimes the HMRC would even write and question if there was an error. That never happens now.

The HMRC seem to be taking the easy way out. Send an individual a bill, and then expect them to sort it out for them.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

He has a demand only for 2009/10 - I am suggesting that we try the ESC (letter 1a) but amend it to say that they knew about the incapacity benefit and had a tax underpayment in 2008/9 arisen they would have had an underpayment to demand back. So failed to act on the information more than once and would have allowed the arrears to build up over two years?

I agree Toni

 

[Clancy]

I would like to thank "William Lester Accountants and Tax Advisers" and particularly David Poole who dealt with my case. I received a letter today from the Tax Office advising me that after reviewing my case, I now owe nothing.

 

[Tom McClelland]

I have an employee of a new client who has just received a tax bill for 2009/10. The previous accountant (who should have retired as he is unable to handle the technology now required), did the P35, P14 etc. for the first time via the internet. (So the client missed out on all the Incentive payments).

The previous accountant has refused to hand anything over, but from a contact I have with HMRC I have discovered, that over a 3 month period, he submitted 4 incorrect P35's, and 4 incorrect P14's to try and correct the errors, unfortunately all he did was compound them! And this was a Payroll just for 1 employee!

The HMRC have added the 4 x P14's together - hence the tax bill. I shall now contact the HMRC by letter on behalf of the employee with the correct P60 and explain.... That's the problem with the internet - some things are better corrected manually.

I managed to reconcile and rebuild the records from the payments made to the employee and HMRC - and submitted a correcting P35. It was easy to do and in a few days the Collectors have confirmed they will no longer be pursuing my new client for the extra tax created by the incorrect P35's submissions.

There is a major defect in HMRC's capacity to accept P14/P35 amendments from 3rd party software. It would be simplest thing in the world, technically, for them to be capable of receiving a complete replacement filing for a particular employer. But their system cannot do that. It can only accept amended filings with delta's applied from the original filing. To create these is a complete nightmare in software so few 3rd party software packages can do it.

It beggars belief that many years after internet filing was introduced they still haven't made this trivial enhancement to their system, which would make both their lives, and the lives of employers who need to file adjusted returns, easier.

Add to that the fact that when you file P35/P14 using 3rd party software it goes to a different HMRC system and isn't visible through the web gateway, so any adjustments that you then make through the web gateway are conducted "blind", and you have a recipe for errors and difficulties. Again, it would be trivially easy for HMRC to update the web interface that you can view through HMRC online with figures filed using 3rd party software, but they can't be a***d.

 

[Andic]

Ok so on Saturday I received a P800 advising that I have underpaid tax for 08/09 and 09/10 combined total owed £2,300. I spoke to HMRC and they advised that I had been given my tax allowance twice, code is 646L. I have 3 sources of income my main job, a district council allowance and a parish council allowance. I was told that my main and parish income had been taxed correctly but my district allowance had duplicated the 646L code hence the duplication.

HMRC advised that they had run a calculation in Jan and Nov 2010 and had advised the District council that they were using the wrong tax code. I checked with the council and they advised they had not had any instructions from HMRC so I contacted HMRC again and they checked and advised that although they had calculated the system was showing that the instructions had not been sent !! They said to write in but it would probably do no good and that I should ask for a self assesment form for next year which will delay the repayment until Jan 2012 and then say I can't pay and can I have a payment plan.

I then get an email from the council advising that I should look at ESC A19. I did so called the tax office and complained I got passed to an officer who said that I did not qualify and asked me why I had not picked up on this ? I disagreed and said that I assumed as I was paying Tax on my main income that the small allowance I received fell within the tax free allowance.

I have asked that this is escalated to a senior officer as per the details on their website. Whilst I don't deny I owe the money I feel I am being penalised for something I have not done, I am also concerned that because the Taxman nor the Council have adjusted the code I have underpaid from Apr 10 to at least Jan 11 which means at the end of this year I will get another underpayment which means the figure will be nearer the £3k mark.

Can anyone help ?? I feel that I am the one at fault but all I have done is assumed (wrongly by the looks of things) is that the Taxman has done his job properly !!

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

this needs to be put in writing - to make it official.

please email us at [email protected] if you want one of the team to help

 

[Andic]

Thank you Elaine, I have sent an email to your office and I have asked the council to check their records for Nov 2007 as I was paying tax on the allowance up until this point. I have asked them to confirm what instructions they received from the Tax office to stop the tax on it.

 

[aurorablue]

My husband has received a P800 demand (yesterday - 13th Jan 2011) for £1577.80 for tax years 2008-09, and 2009-10, based on the fact that his Incapacity Benefit has not been included when his tax code was worked out by HMRC.
He receives the Incapacity Benefit along with a reduced salary though the insurance scheme of the company he worked for. This reduced salary is paid through the company with PAYE etc. The reduced salary is a percentage (less the Incapacity Benefit) of what his salary was.
He has received Incapacity for a number of years, and we were under the impression that all was well, and that all taxes etc., were being paid through the PAYE of his company. In the booklet he received when he started on this it states that "The Inland Revenue may adjust your PAYE code number so that any tax due is taken from your pension or other earnings", and when he asked about this at the local office he was told verbally "not to worry about it, it was advised by them to the Inland Revenue" So we were under the impression that the DWP notified HMRC and that his tax code was adjusted appropriately and sent to his employers as would normally happen.

Of course now we get this demand. The actual calculation is not correct either, I don't think (though this is only my own guess??), as he pays personal pension contributions and these have not been taken into account.

What is the way forward for us? Should we write and try to invoke the ESC A19?

Any help / advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

please email us at [email protected] if you want one of the team to help

Do bear in mind that January is the busiest month for accountants - so it will be Feb before anyone is available to help on this.

All time is given freely and on a volunteer basis

 

[crispee]

Received 2 P800's last week - 2008/2009 for £690 and 2009/2010 for £3590 (this includes previous 08/09 of £690 with a statement that 'this calculation includes an underpayment for an earlier year').

Personal circumstances are that I left the Royal Air Force after 23 years service and took up civilian employment. I started with my new employer 3 months prior to my 'end of Service' date and so had 2 incomes for that period. When my RAF wage ceased I was then eligible to recieve my Service pension and have done so since. The timeline is as follows:

Oct 2008 - Started transition to new employment. 2 wages.
Jan 2009 - RAF pay ceases, pension starts. 1 wage, 1 pension.

Prior to starting with my new employer I contacted my existing tax office (Cardiff) by telephone and my new tax office (Newcastle) to inform them of the change in cicumstances. When I started with my new employer I completed the necessary paperwork for payroll and subsequently forwarded my P45 once it arrived.

I sat back, concentrating on my new career and assumed that because I had made both tax offices aware and done the relevant paperwork that all was in order as I heard nothing from them until January 2010 (excepting the annual P60s) when I received 2 tax coding notices. One was for my pension (pension < £9000) at 647L and the other for my main income at D0. I rang the tax office and asked them to explain what/why D0 as it was one I'd not seen before. I was flabbergasted to be told that they wanted 40% of every penny of my main wage (wage circa £45k). They said that this was wrong and swapped the tax codes between the two incomes.

All has been quiet until last week when the dredded P800's arrived. I have to say that in all honesty I was unaware of the problem mounting up and had made efforts at the beginning of this new chapter of my life to ensure the tax office was made aware of my situation. As they are supposed to be the experts I assumed they would get it right. I have reviewed their figures and it would seem that they failed to take enough tax from my pension during those years but surely that was not my fault? I know I should have sat down and reviewed my P60s etc when I got them but as both my pension and wage are PAYE I trusted that all was well.

I am putting together Letter 1 but is there anything I should not state or state additionally?

Thanks in advance.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Have a read here ....

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=180061

it explains how to handle your case

 

[crispee]

Thanks, had a look earlier and as I mentioned will send Letter 1. I'll also add the bold red paragraph with the other quoted letter you mention.

I also noticed a comment somewhere that mentioned 'less is more' and to let HMRC do the information gathering with respect to any appeal. Is this still valid advice?

Thanks. And I'll post the outcome...should it eventually get dealt with!

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

less is always best with HMRC - tell them why they are wrong and leave it at that

 

[russell_anderson]

Received 2 P800's last week - 2008/2009 for £690 and 2009/2010 for £3590 (this includes previous 08/09 of £690 with a statement that 'this calculation includes an underpayment for an earlier year').

Personal circumstances are that I left the Royal Air Force after 23 years service and took up civilian employment. I started with my new employer 3 months prior to my 'end of Service' date and so had 2 incomes for that period. When my RAF wage ceased I was then eligible to recieve my Service pension and have done so since. The timeline is as follows:

Oct 2008 - Started transition to new employment. 2 wages.
Jan 2009 - RAF pay ceases, pension starts. 1 wage, 1 pension.

Prior to starting with my new employer I contacted my existing tax office (Cardiff) by telephone and my new tax office (Newcastle) to inform them of the change in cicumstances. When I started with my new employer I completed the necessary paperwork for payroll and subsequently forwarded my P45 once it arrived.

I sat back, concentrating on my new career and assumed that because I had made both tax offices aware and done the relevant paperwork that all was in order as I heard nothing from them until January 2010 (excepting the annual P60s) when I received 2 tax coding notices. One was for my pension (pension < £9000) at 647L and the other for my main income at D0. I rang the tax office and asked them to explain what/why D0 as it was one I'd not seen before. I was flabbergasted to be told that they wanted 40% of every penny of my main wage (wage circa £45k). They said that this was wrong and swapped the tax codes between the two incomes.

All has been quiet until last week when the dredded P800's arrived. I have to say that in all honesty I was unaware of the problem mounting up and had made efforts at the beginning of this new chapter of my life to ensure the tax office was made aware of my situation. As they are supposed to be the experts I assumed they would get it right. I have reviewed their figures and it would seem that they failed to take enough tax from my pension during those years but surely that was not my fault? I know I should have sat down and reviewed my P60s etc when I got them but as both my pension and wage are PAYE I trusted that all was well.

I am putting together Letter 1 but is there anything I should not state or state additionally?

Thanks in advance.

I'm in a sumilar situation. When you write to HMRC, you might want to quote a case shown on Panorama where they've already set a precedence. I'm not allowed to post a link but if you enter the words "douglas marsh tax panorama" in Google, you'll find it easily.

 

[russell_anderson]

Received 2 P800's last week - 2008/2009 for £690 and 2009/2010 for £3590 (this includes previous 08/09 of £690 with a statement that 'this calculation includes an underpayment for an earlier year').

Personal circumstances are that I left the Royal Air Force after 23 years service and took up civilian employment. I started with my new employer 3 months prior to my 'end of Service' date and so had 2 incomes for that period. When my RAF wage ceased I was then eligible to recieve my Service pension and have done so since. The timeline is as follows:

Oct 2008 - Started transition to new employment. 2 wages.
Jan 2009 - RAF pay ceases, pension starts. 1 wage, 1 pension.

Prior to starting with my new employer I contacted my existing tax office (Cardiff) by telephone and my new tax office (Newcastle) to inform them of the change in cicumstances. When I started with my new employer I completed the necessary paperwork for payroll and subsequently forwarded my P45 once it arrived.

I sat back, concentrating on my new career and assumed that because I had made both tax offices aware and done the relevant paperwork that all was in order as I heard nothing from them until January 2010 (excepting the annual P60s) when I received 2 tax coding notices. One was for my pension (pension < £9000) at 647L and the other for my main income at D0. I rang the tax office and asked them to explain what/why D0 as it was one I'd not seen before. I was flabbergasted to be told that they wanted 40% of every penny of my main wage (wage circa £45k). They said that this was wrong and swapped the tax codes between the two incomes.

All has been quiet until last week when the dredded P800's arrived. I have to say that in all honesty I was unaware of the problem mounting up and had made efforts at the beginning of this new chapter of my life to ensure the tax office was made aware of my situation. As they are supposed to be the experts I assumed they would get it right. I have reviewed their figures and it would seem that they failed to take enough tax from my pension during those years but surely that was not my fault? I know I should have sat down and reviewed my P60s etc when I got them but as both my pension and wage are PAYE I trusted that all was well.

I am putting together Letter 1 but is there anything I should not state or state additionally?

Thanks in advance.

I'm in a similar situation. When you write to HMRC, you might want to quote a case shown on Panorama where they've already set a precedence. I'm not allowed to post a link but if you enter the words "douglas marsh tax panorama" in a search engine, you'll find it easily.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

The post on how to handle you case gives an example letter from HMRC to use to show a precedent ....

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=180655

Please use this in letters as well.

 

[Bob]

Got a telephone call from my daughter's younger sister-in-law who is still at University. She has received this week a tax calculation for 2008-09 dated 21st October 2010 showing an underpayment of £1,120.14 which includes "an underpayment for an earlier year". She was working for ASDA and a local pub (typical student employment !! ) and paying tax at both sources although clearly both were giving her a personal allowance. She genuinely knew no better and, again typical student, is broke

I have drafted her an ESC A19 letter and she will respect me for ever if the tax is remitted :redface:

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Bob

This seems to be a very common theme for the underpayment demands. Do let us know how you get on.

 

[frauke]

I was shocked at the amount this person was being asked to repay when Elaine passed the details to me.

This lady does not use the internet, and rang Maxy for help. She is a retired School Teacher who continued to work I think with the same educational authority as a consultant after retirement. They have given her 4 weeks to pay in full and she does not have that amount of accessible cash!

First thing to do is to check the figures. She is posting copies of everything to me so I can check and assess what the HMRC had available etc. Then I shall discuss her options and what the next step should be.

She believes she should pay if fair share of tax, but think the HMRC have not been reasonable by leaving it until now to do something about it - especially as she has only ever had PAYE sources of Income. I'll let everyone know what happens in due course.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Use the ESC A19 appeal - don't pay anythign until exhausted this plus a complaint.

Just to update all - there has been a review of how HMRC have handled all of this and they have not come out well!!!

They are now sending out demands for 2007 / 2008 which proves the exceptional circs do apply!

Its madness and painful to deal with - but do persist as it is producing results.

 

[Jenni384]

Taxpayer with multiple employments, tax under paid of £4400.
Relates to 2008-09 and 2009-10.

No reason I can see why they should have gotten it so wrong, an ESC A19 letter is on its way.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Mart-c]

Hi.

I have had tax demands for 2008-9 & 2009-10 total £2038 and today received another from 2007-08 for another £1067 Total owed now is £3041. I spoke to the tax office as soon as I got the first calculations and they told me it was my fault I should of known my tax was wrong and all they offered was someone to phone me about making payments back to them. I then spoke to tax aid about this and they told me to write to the tax office and try and get them to write off my tax under ESC A19. I did this and received a letter last week saying I still owe the money . The letter looked like a standard letter with none of my argument taken into consideration.
The problem looks like it started way back in 2003-4 when I had a accident at work and after 9 months was put on incapacity benefit and still receiving reduced earnings right up to June 2010 when my worked stopped paying me and I had to go on income support. I have all my p60s from work and p60 substitutes from jobcenterplus for all these years and I genuinely thought my tax affairs where in order because I had the same tax code on both [Now I know that should of been different] .
I have been told by tax aid to write again saying I'm not happy how they handled it and ask again to write my tax off but I just don't think it will work . I am really worried now I have no savings and will never work again because of the pain I am in. I am really struggling to live just about making my mortgage payments and all this extra worry is making me ill. I have been on depression medication since my accident also. Please do you think I will or even should pay this back and if I have to how will it be possible when I'm on income support . Any advice on what I should do now? I have a similar letter to my first one ready to send BUT I'm still not convinced if I send it that I will just get another standard rejection.

Thank you

Martin

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

This is the same circs as all cases.

HMRC will tell you to pay - that is what they have been told to say.

See here and go to stage two:

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/blog/?p=1436

Complain and see how that goes

 

[Tom McClelland]

This is the same circs as all cases.

HMRC will tell you to pay - that is what they have been told to say.

See here and go to stage two:

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/blog/?p=1436

Complain and see how that goes

Note that this is yet another case where one of the income sources is an arm of the government.

If Job Centre (and other government arms) had to file P35/P14s the same as everyone else who gives people "employment" income then 90+% of these underpayment problems would go away. Yet these problems are being used to justify a expensive and invasive power grab by HMRC in the way that PAYE will be processed.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Tom
Absolutely!

In many cases of the near 100 that we have had this is the case.

How HMRC can waste tax payers’ money spending time on this, sending out letters that make no sense, etc is beyond me.

I wished someone with some (excess my language but it has to be said) balls would take a look at this whole FIASCO.

They have now gone back to 2007 / 2008.

They say they didn’t have the information to collect the tax but in the most simplest of terms ....

HOW ARE THEY CALCULATING THE UNDERPAYMENTS

I rant – I know but I make no apology.

Come sit in my shoes for a bit and read the emails from people hit by this.

Only the heartless could not agree that this is clearly wrong.

 

[aurorablue]

Ref - Post # 51

After writing to HMRC on the 20th January using the "Stage 1" letter and attachment, my husband this morning received what looks like a generic payment demand for the full amount to be paid by 1st April.

We have now written a "2nd stage" complaint letter, as recommended on here, which we will post recorded delivery on Monday - hopefully this will work - we will advise outcome, should that not work, we will email for help if that's ok.

Thank you for the help so far - if we hadn't found this website we would have been totally stuck!

Regards

Gail (and George)

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Have a look at this update here ...

http://www.cheapaccounting.co.uk/blog/?p=1529

 

[GaryMc]

Right so who do I have to kick.

My mother received a demand for £600 going back to 2007. She has 2 jobs and one of the employers didn't deduct enough from her.

Having looked at the letters provided by LITRG, there is a complication. The employers are no more having gone into liquidation.

Can I just amend the letter to say this or is it now falling back to my mother to pay?

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

not your problem that they don't exist - use letter two and leave it at that.

Up to HMRC to reclaim it from the employer and hard cheese if no longer exists. They should have sorted it out in 2007!

 

[GaryMc]

Marbleous - thanks Elaine.

 

[RBS]

WHEN WILL HMRC STOP THIS APPALLING BEHAVIOUR?

HMRC is one huge scam. Show me what law says you have to pay tax? Any kid of tax - income, council, Tv licence, road tax etc. Statutes/Acts are NOT laws and are contractual agreements. For contract to be valid it must be signed by both parties. If you do not wish to contract with council, goverment - they cannot force you...

Of course its not that simple, but think about it....its true. Too much money is being pocketed by them up there.

 

[GaryMc]

Didn't Wesley Snipes try that sort of excuse before being sent to jail?

 

[RBS]

Didn't Wesley Snipes try that sort of excuse before being sent to jail?

Watch these videos of John Harris:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0IM7Hobd_k

There are two parts - Its illusion 1 and 2

 

[RBS]

Didn't Wesley Snipes try that sort of excuse before being sent to jail?

Its not that easy of course because they make us believe in that crap they enforce on us.

 

[GaryMc]

If you can dig out a few cases where people have successfully argued that in court, I would be amazed

 

[RBS]

If you can dig out a few cases where people have successfully argued that in court, I would be amazed

Start reading, lot of examples:
http://www.tpuc.org/forum
http://www.fmotl.com/forum/index.php
http://www.lawfulrebellion.org

Watch John Harris videos on Youtube. Be prepared to loose minimum week of your life, because you will not believe what you read and see...you will be glued to your computer.

 

[GaryMc]

Trouble is the description talks about god given rights - it falls over there.

Link 1 - case law & precedents = pretty bare
Link 2 - no case law there
Link 3 - virtually nothing in the forum and a load of paranoid nonsense

Doesn't matter anyway - the Bilderberg group run everything anyway so there isn't much you can do about it