Are you a Christian?

[bdw]

Conscience refers to right and wrong and the relation of the individual to that which is right or wrong.

Are you suggesting that you have to be a christian to know what is right or wrong?

 

[DCE]

Are you suggesting that you have to be a christian to know what is right or wrong?

It would help a lot, because we get to know what God's standards are, as you know our first parents became independent from God, thought they we able to work out the difference between right and wrong, and just look at the mess we are in.

As I mentioned earlier humanists being in the armed forces, what if you came against a fellow humanist fighting on the other side?

 

[bdw]

It would help a lot, because we get to know what God's standards are

No, I am afraid that humanists standards are much more fair, humane and tolerant than christian standards.

As I mentioned earlier humanists being in the armed forces, what if you came against a fellow humanist fighting on the other side?

Well if humanists ran all countries the chances of war would be much smaller since we would have no religions to go to war for but what would I do? First of all I would put down my weapon, call for a cease fire, then I would ask him what his religious beliefs were - NOT!

Actually I would probably do as christians do when they go to war against other christians. In other words try to shoot him before he shot me.

 

[cjd]

As I mentioned earlier humanists being in the armed forces, what if you came against a fellow humanist fighting on the other side?

.................Eh?

 

[DCE]

.................Eh?

Have you heard the phrase Conscientious objector.

 

[Subbynet]

Have you heard the phrase Conscientious objector.

Yeah, they come in all shapes and sizes. What's your point?

 

[Top Hat]

Have you heard the phrase Conscientious objector.

Yes of course.

I wouldn't fight, I wouldn't design weapons, I'm an atheist. How do you square that with your superior christian morality? (own words please no nonsensical bible quotes)

And while I'm talking superior morals, I really do believe, and I've come to this belief in the past few years, that the average atheist is more moral than the average theist.

 

[cjd]

This is what humanism is:

"Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality."

I think you'll find that most humanists will fight for that - but I expect some will not wish to kill others in the pursuit of it

 

[quikshop]

Quickshop: That is what is refreshing about the Bible, it is about real people who WERE flawed and made mistakes.

I agree, the Bible was to a large part about real people. The actions and status attributed to the most important protagonists are fiction, a result of Aramaic and Hebrew texts being translated incorrectly and taken out of context.

Did you know that the original "son of God" was King David (no relation ) - however the translation of that phrase taken in context of the time was God's messiah.

Context is something the likes of DCE and other evangelical religious sorts seem to really struggle with

 

[DCE]

I agree, the Bible was to a large part about real people. The actions and status attributed to the most important protagonists are fiction, a result of Aramaic and Hebrew texts being translated incorrectly and taken out of context.

Did you know that the original "son of God" was King David (no relation ) - however the translation of that phrase taken in context of the time was God's messiah.

Context is something the likes of DCE and other evangelical religious sorts seem to really struggle with

King David prefigured the Greater David Jesus Christ.

 

[quikshop]

Only my youngest exhibits the same type of selective 'hearing' as you

King David prefigured the Greater David Jesus Christ.

Your nonsense is becoming even more senseless... are you saying that the literal translation applied to King David was wrong, but right for Jesus?

Or was King David a bit like a back-street son that the family never talk about, and when questioned your god only says he has one son

 

[InternetMarketingPlatinum]

My Christian faith is fundamental is how I run my business in terms of ethics and every other consideration.

 

[Top Hat]

My Christian faith is fundamental is how I run my business in terms of ethics and every other consideration.

I read that as 'Christians have superior morals to everyone else'

I disagree.

 

[quikshop]

My Christian faith is fundamental is how I run my business in terms of ethics and every other consideration.

That's great, applying good ethics to business is to be lauded. And if you do apply good ethics then I suspect we are quite similar in our approach to business... although my ethics code does not require belief in a deity.

The early scripts on which the Abrahamic religions are founded record good and bad practices, a set of rules of the day for society to behave in an ordered and not a self-destructive manner.

All belief systems borrow heavily from each other for fundamental laws of survival and co-existence.

Good ethics are not religious, they are just good ethics.

 

[DCE]

Only my youngest exhibits the same type of selective 'hearing' as you

Your nonsense is becoming even more senseless... are you saying that the literal translation applied to King David was wrong, but right for Jesus?

Or was King David a bit like a back-street son that the family never talk about, and when questioned your god only says he has one son

Hope having this Copy and paste explanation, show's that, what you call nonsense actually make sense.

Of the descendants of Judah, the first one to be chosen by Jehovah to be king over his people was the shepherd David, son of Jesse. (1 Samuel 16:1-13)

In spite of his sins and errors, David found favour with Jehovah because of his loyalty to Jehovah's sovereignty.

Shedding more light on the Edenic prophecy, Jehovah made a covenant with David, saying: "I shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which will come out of your inward parts; and I shall indeed firmly establish his kingdom."

That would involve more than David's son and successor, Solomon, for the covenant stated: "I shall certainly establish the throne of his kingdom firmly to time indefinite."

That Davidic covenant made clear that the promised Kingdom "seed" would in time come through the family line of David.-2 Samuel 7:12, 13.

With David was started a dynasty of kings who were anointed with holy oil by the high priest.

These kings could thus be called anointed ones, or messiahs. (1 Samuel 16:13; 2 Samuel 2:4; 5:3; 1 Kings 1:39) They were said to sit on Jehovah's throne and rule as kings for Jehovah in Jerusalem. (2 Chronicles 9:8)

In that sense, the kingdom of Judah represented God's Kingdom, an expression of Jehovah's sovereignty.

When the king and the people submitted to Jehovah's sovereignty, they enjoyed His protection and blessing.

The reign of Solomon was in particular a time of peace and prosperity beyond compare, providing a prophetic glimpse of the rule of God's Kingdom when Satan's influence will be completely removed and Jehovah's sovereignty vindicated. (1 Kings 4:20, 25)

Sadly, most of the kings in the Davidic line failed to measure up to Jehovah's requirements, and the people fell into idolatry and immorality.

Finally, Jehovah allowed the kingdom to be destroyed by the Babylonians in 607 B.C.E. Satan appeared to have gained the upper hand in his attempt to discredit Jehovah's sovereignty.

The overthrow of the Davidic kingdom-and the earlier overthrow of the northern kingdom of Israel-furnished proof, not of any deficiency or failure of Jehovah's sovereignty, but of the sorry consequences of Satan's influence and man's independence from God. (Proverbs 16:25; Jeremiah 10:23)

To show that he was still exercising his sovereignty, Jehovah declared through the prophet Ezekiel: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no one's until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27)

Those words indicate that the promised "seed," the One "who [had] the legal right," was yet to come.

We now move forward to about the year 2 B.C.E.

The angel Gabriel was sent to Mary, a virgin girl in Nazareth, a city of Galilee in northern Palestine.

He declared: "Look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus.

This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end of his kingdom."-Luke 1:31-33.

 

[bdw]

Zzzzzz zzzzzzzz!

 

[DCE]

Zzzzzz zzzzzzzz!

Its all about staying awake to prophesies in the Bible, which throughout points to God's Kingdom rulership soon to come about.

 

[bdw]

which throughout points to God's Kingdom rulership soon to come about.

I think statistically we are more likely see another unfulfilled prophecy and erm ... how soon is soon? Is it this year, next year, the next five or ten years, the next hundred years or what?

Zzzzzz zzzzz zzzzz .....

 

[cjd]

Luckily, 'soon' can be played both ways. When our JWs are in their 'the end of the world is nigh' mode (which is always) it's the day after tomorrow - after all, there was a flood in Cornwall today.

When it's pointed out that soon was supposed to be about 2000 years ago, we have to understand that that sort of time is no more than a blink of the eye of God. Good innit?

 

[quikshop]

Its all about staying awake to prophesies in the Bible, which throughout points to God's Kingdom rulership soon to come about.

Do we have time to get a few beers in this weekend

 

[movietub]

Its all about staying awake to prophesies in the Bible, which throughout points to God's Kingdom rulership soon to come about.

But nothing else in the bible has happened, nothing that wouldn't have happened anyway at any rate.

By the way, why did you decide to follow the words of the bible, and not the koran? Both equally valid (as in not evidentially valid at all), and therfore you must have had a reason for choosing one over the other...?

Was it peer pressure?

 

[DCE]

But nothing else in the bible has happened, nothing that wouldn't have happened anyway at any rate.

By the way, why did you decide to follow the words of the bible, and not the koran? Both equally valid

Have you read the Koran?

It certainly does not teach what the Bible teaches, and they are also disunited and are killing each other, do you thinks Allah approves?

 

[DCE]

But nothing else in the bible has happened, nothing that wouldn't have happened anyway at any rate.

By the way, why did you decide to follow the words of the bible, and not the koran? Both equally valid

Have you read the Koran?

It certainly does not teach what the Bible teaches, and they are also disunited and are killing each other, Sunni killing Shi'ite and visa versa do you thinks Allah approves?

 

[Subbynet]

Have you read the Koran?

It certainly does not teach what the Bible teaches, and they are also disunited and are killing each other, Sunni killing Shi'ite and visa versa do you thinks Allah approves?

Christianity is disunited and they're killing each other. You don't believe what their version of the bible teaches do you.

You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland, do you think God approves?

You have Muslims and Christians killing each other, do you think God approves?

Why do you believe the Bible, but not the Koran? Who are you to pick and choose what to believe as being God's word?

 

[DCE]

Christianity is disunited and they're killing each other. You don't believe what their version of the bible teaches do you.

You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland, do you think God approves?

You have Muslims and Christians killing each other, do you think God approves?

Why do you believe the Bible, but not the Koran? Who are you to pick and choose what to believe as being God's word?

Exactly none of them would be approved by God, when I was in the Royal Air Force, the Clergy & the Priests were blessing the Aircraft, which carried the Atomic Bomb, in fact they blessed all the military hardware, a complete hypocrisy don't you think?

If you read the Bible & the Koran you would know why, it stand's out a mile.

 

[stockdam]

You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland, do you think God approves?

Your ignorance of what happened in another part of the UK is amazing. Please do not spread nonsense if you don't have the first clue about what happened.

 

[cjd]

^^^ Granted there's more to that particular conflict than religion, but you're surely not denying that there is a religious division in NI?

 

[stockdam]

^^^ Granted there's more to that particular conflict than religion, but you're surely not denying that there is a religious division in NI?

The point is that it was never Protestants and Catholics killing each other but it's ofter quoted by atheists to try to make a point. It's the same lazy arguments used about wars/conflict and religion. Northern Ireland is only a stone's throw away and yet here we have more misinformation and a pathetic attempt to blame it on religion. If you are going to talk about a nearby country then please do some basic research and don't just quote clap-trap headlines.

 

[paultnl]

If you read the Bible & the Koran you would know why, it stand's out a mile.

Trying to avoid actualy answering the question?

 

[cjd]

The point is that it was never Protestants and Catholics killing each other .

It wasn't just Protestant and Catholics killing each other, it was politics, gangsterism AND religion. And the religious divide in NI is still huge and horrible.

Just as it's crass to say it's all religion, it's crass to say that religion doesn't play a big part in it.

 

[stockdam]

It wasn't just Protestant and Catholics killing each other, it was politics, gangsterism AND religion. And the religious divide in NI is still huge and horrible.

Just as it's crass to say it's all religion, it's crass to say that religion doesn't play a big part in it.

You're making the usual mistake of associating Loyalists and Nationalists with Protestants and Catholics. The vast majority involved in violence were atheists and not religious people. You need to stop reading cheap newspapers and open your eyes to the fact that Religion with a capital R is not the cause of the violence in Northern Ireland. The Protestant and Catholic Religion is about following Christ.......it has nothing to do with throwing hand made grenades in a Cemetery or planting incendiary bombs in hotels or murdering innocent people going out for a night out. I hesitate to call these people atheists because that paints atheists with a bad name.......however calling these people religious is crassness of the most pathetic type. You may be desperate to make mud stick but you have no clue if you want to argue about religious conflict in Northern Ireland........let's instead agree to call it an atheist conflict.

 

[cjd]

You're making the usual mistake of associating Loyalists and Nationalists with Protestants and Catholics.The vast majority involved in violence were atheists and not religious people. You need to stop reading cheap newspapers and open your eyes to the fact that Religion with a capital R is not the cause of the violence in Northern Ireland. The Protestant and Catholic Religion is about following Christ.......it has nothing to do with throwing hand made grenades in a Cemetery or planting incendiary bombs in hotels or murdering innocent people going out for a night out. I hesitate to call these people atheists because that paints atheists with a bad name.......however calling these people religious is crassness of the most pathetic type. You may be desperate to make mud stick but you have no clue if you want to argue about religious conflict in Northern Ireland........let's instead agree to call it an atheist conflict.

You need to get your head straight on this. Religion has a lot to do with what's happening in NI - to say otherwise is silly. I'm also not aware of any atheistic cause being pursued there - perhaps you could tell me what it might be?

I am fully aware that the background cause is political and criminal and that any real Christian (as opposed to a fanatical evangelical) would distance themselves from the violence - as would any true Muslim with 9/11.

You should note that it was not me that said otherwise.

 

[stockdam]

You need to get your head straight on this. Religion has a lot to do with what's happening in NI - to say otherwise is silly. I'm also not aware of any atheistic cause being pursued there - perhaps you could tell me what it might be?

I am fully aware that the background cause is political and criminal and that any real Christian (as opposed to a fanatical evangelical) would distance themselves from the violence - as would any true Muslim with 9/11.

You should note that it was not me that said otherwise.

Yes I do note that you didn't start saying this. Sorry but my head is perfectly straight on this. Religion has diddly squat to do with those who were involved in terrorism. I didn't imply that there was an atheist cause but please tell me what the religious cause was. UVF, RHC, INLA, IRA etc..........the vast majority of these people are non-church going atheists so please tell me where Religion was responsible......I'm all ears.

I'm intrigued at your words......what's the difference between a "Real" Christian and one that isn't "real"?

 

[Subbynet]

Your ignorance of what happened in another part of the UK is amazing. Please do not spread nonsense if you don't have the first clue about what happened.

Your ignorance says it matters in the face of God.. .It shouldn't matter at all. Bombs are bombs, killing is killing, and politics is politics.

 

[stockdam]

Your ignorance says it matters in the face of God.. .It shouldn't matter at all. Bombs are bombs, killing is killing, and politics is politics.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. It's plain to see who is ignorant here "You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland, do you think God approves?"

Yes bombs are bombs and killing is killing but it wasn't done by Protestants and Catholics.........stunningly ignorant.

 

[Subbynet]

I have no idea what you are trying to say. It's plain to see who is ignorant here "You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland, do you think God approves?"

Yes bombs are bombs and killing is killing but it wasn't done by Protestants and Catholics.........stunningly ignorant.

No what is ignorant is ignoring the topic of the thread to divert onto a tangent.

It was done by Protestants and Catholics, like it or not that's the truth, I mean for heavens sake look at the funeral services, they say enough.

Now, the point is it wasn't done in the name of religion, but religious people are doing the killing. And yes I'm sure a few are atheists too, but lets not pretend about this issue, its well known.

 

[stockdam]

No what is ignorant is ignoring the topic of the thread to divert onto a tangent.

It was done by Protestants and Catholics, like it or not that's the truth, I mean for heavens sake look at the funeral services, they say enough.

Now, the point is it wasn't done in the name of religion, but religious people are doing the killing. And yes I'm sure a few are atheists too, but lets not pretend about this issue, its well known.

Keep on flogging a dead horse. The killing and the bombs were not done by religious people. The vast majority were atheist and had no idea of religion. This is well known if you care to do your research - you are trying desperately to blame it on religion when it was atheists doing the killing. Sorry to burst your media led bubble.

I'm quite happy to take on any of the atheists here about this subject as you are totally wrong and it's sad to see somebody who wants to believe stuff that is patently wrong.

Maybe it would help if you spend some appreciable time living with the people you claim were causing the problem rather than spouting absolute rubbish from afar. Take your blinkers off and look at what was actually happening and not what you want to mislead DCE about.

 

[cjd]

I have to say I'm rather surprised at your state of denial. When I go to NI my name is enough to confirm my religion (of birth). There is a sectarian and religious divide in NI - the religions are segregated; physically.

The prisoners responsible for the bombing and terrorism are segregated into religious groupings; the whole bloody thing is based on Protestant/Catholic politics going back to the reformation.

Of course 'normal' Christians want any part in all this but are wrapped up in it anyway, but to say that religion is not part of it is just dumb.

 

[Subbynet]

The vast majority were atheist and had no idea of religion.

What are you basing this on? They didn't go to church weekly, they didn't study the bible? :| They don't have to, if you say a God exists and its ok to believe in it, then that's enough, they don't need to be defined by you, they answer to this non-existent God.

Maybe it would help if you spend some appreciable time living with the people you claim were causing the problem rather than spouting absolute rubbish from afar. Take your blinkers off and look at what was actually happening and not what you want to mislead DCE about.

No, I'm afraid that really doesn't cut it Stockdam. If you have something to say, say it, but don't try close me down with this...

(From Wikipedia, that source I know you like!)

The principal issues at stake in the Troubles were the constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the relationship between the mainly-Protestant unionist and mainly-Catholic nationalist communities in Northern Ireland. The Troubles had both political and military (or paramilitary) dimensions. Its participants included politicians and political activists on both sides, republican and loyalist paramilitaries, and the security forces of the United Kingdom and of the Republic of Ireland.

How about this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_dispute

The Holy Cross dispute occurred in 2001 and 2002 in the Ardoyne area of Belfast, Northern Ireland, and involved an escalating dispute between the pupils and parents of Holy Cross R.C. Primary School and the residents of a loyalist area that was on the route to the front entrance of the school. A loyalist picket arose following accusations[vague] that nationalists had used the school route as a cover to cause damage and/or harassment in their community.

And more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Protestantism

In modern Irish nationalism, anti-Protestantism is usually more nationalist than religious in tone. The main reason for this is the identification of Protestants with unionism - i.e. the support for the maintenance of the union with the United Kingdom, and opposition to Home Rule or Irish independence. In Northern Ireland, since the foundation of the Free State in 1921, Catholics, who are mainly nationalists, allege systematic discrimination against them by the Protestant unionist community. The mixture of religious and national identities on both sides reinforces both anti-Catholic and anti-Protestant sectarian prejudice in the province.

I could find hundreds if not thousands of examples, yet you'll still blame atheists.

 

[stockdam]

I have to say I'm rather surprised at your state of denial. When I go to NI my name is enough to confirm my religion (of birth). There is a sectarian and religious divide in NI - the religions are segregated; physically.

The prisoners responsible for the bombing and terrorism are segregated into religious groupings; the whole bloody thing is based on Protestant/Catholic politics going back to the reformation.

Of course 'normal' Christians want any part in all this but are wrapped up in it anyway, but to say that religion is not part of it is just dumb.

You are getting confused with Nationalists and Unionists. H-Bock and the Maze were segregated in this way and NOT in a religious way. I'll state again that Religion was not involved......

"You have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Northern Ireland, do you think God approves?"

The above statement is wrong and is deliberately trying to link religion and terrorism in Northern Ireland.

Maybe you should talk to people when you come over.......maybe talk to some religious people about it. I'll even organise the debate if you want.

If you want to go back into history, it was not about Protestant and Catholic politics.......whatever that is. It was about the indigenous Irish people being displaced by Scottish settlers. Lazily they have been called "protestant" and "catholic" .....the same way that Rangers supporters are "protestant" and Celtic ones are "catholic".