your biggest frustration when it comes to marketing...

[Clinton]

Except they do One of Google's primary concerns is providing relevancy and thus value to its search customers

The point was about whether Google's has marketing at the centre of everything they do. If you believe search is everything they do you're in for a big surprise.

Michael, I share your pain about how marketing is so often misunderstood and misinterpreted.

I'll join in all this pain sharing. The term is often misunderstood and misinterpreted ...by marketing types who would have us expand how we perceive marketing till the definition envelopes all activity on and off this planet.

As for the Oxford English Dictionary they are a joke

I'm an idiot. Google is a failed startup. The Oxford dic is a joke. You are getting more and more credible by the minute.

 

[debbidoo]

The point was about whether Google's has marketing at the centre of everything they do. If you believe search is everything they do you're in for a big surprise.

Of course not But it would be fair to assume that they don't just launch products and services without researching the marketplace first, to ascertain whether or not there's a need/desire for the products they're planning to launch. So I should think they're pretty marketing-led, in that respect

I'll join in all this pain sharing. The term is often misunderstood and misinterpreted ...by marketing types who would have us expand how we perceive marketing till the definition envelopes all activity on and off this planet.

Heh Think we'll just have to agree to differ on this one I don't suppose Michael and I, in loving our profession and being frustrated when others don't understand or misinterpret it, are any different from a painter and decorator, or a rocket scientist, or a housewife When you love what you do, when you've put a lot of time and effort into qualifying, and when you put every ounce of effort into doing a job well - criticism smarts

Anyway, I'm not naiive enough to believe that all activity on and off the planet is related to marketing. There's plenty that isn't. Walking the dog, doing the washing up, having a poo - none of those are marketing-related, I'll happily admit that

 

No let's not. It is the oh lets pretend people are correct when they are not attitude which has got the UK in the mess it is in.

Clinton is clearly very very wrong. And yes the Oxford English dictionary is a joke as they do include slang word snow as if they were correct English. You know the language used by those who walk a round holding their gonads is now in the dictionary-so yes the Oxford dictionary is a joke.

So just for once why don't people start telling it like it is Clinton is wrong, ignorant and has not the first clue about marketing or business strategy.

The sooner people stop this pc nonsense, at the expense of ability, intellect and intelligence the sooner this country will start to drag itself out of the mire it is in.

another way to help the UK economy would be to outlaw HR departments, recruitment consultants and estate agents. Lets be honest that's what everyone thinks and knows with juts cause so have the balls to tell it like it is for once and help put the great back into greet Britain.

Jesus some days I'm just ashamed to be British. Clinton don't bother responding you are out of your depth.

 

"Of course not But it would be fair to assume that they don't just launch products and services without researching the marketplace first, to ascertain whether or not there's a need/desire for the products they're planning to launch. So I should think they're pretty marketing-led, in that respect "

EVERY SUCCESFULL COMPANY IS MARKETING LED. IF NOT THEY FAIL SIMPLE AS THAT THAT IS FACT NOT MY OPINION.

 

Marketing is the most crucial function there is. why? because it is about being Customer Centric. And guess what is you are not customer centric eventually the customer goes elsewhere.

But why I am even bothering Clinton as all you can do is misrepresent quotations and spew out definitions form discredited publications.

I wonder is it because you make a living out of just being creative without any thought as to whether that will give the client any ROI. Any one who thinks google don't ave marketing at the centre of everything is an idiot.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

But why I am even bothering Clinton

I'm not sure either considering you've made three ranting posts and he hasn't even said anything since earlier this afternoon at 1:30pm.

Just calm down because it doesn't look good. You're arguing with someone you don't even know about the definition of a word, and that makes you 'ashamed to be British'? I do believe a chill pill is in order sir.

Anyway, in my opinion, marketing will be at the centre of everything commercial* Google do. Why? Because marketing has a VERY vast meaning, so some form of marketing will be involved in one way or another. Just look at the marketing mix to get an idea of the many branches it has.

*I say commercial because I won't get into a petty argument about the definition of 'everything'. I'm sure Google don't use marketing when one of their staff members makes a cup of tea, but stuff like that is irrelevant.

 

well clearlyw e are talking about being cnetral to a business suceeding, whcih marketing is.

As for Clinton he is I suspect very similar to you.

As for britain well we have the highest rate of teenage pregnancy, teh highest rate of STDs in Europe. the economy is knackered for the.

Oh sorry I should be proud of britain. reason I have described, everywhere you go is full of brainless tattoo covred idiots on yet another sink estate,

It is your attitude wthat is symptomatic -take a chill pill of why we are in the mir ewe are in.

Plus telling it like it is doe snot constitute a rant.
It constitutes telling it liek it is nothng more,nothing less.

 

"Because marketing has a VERY vast meaning"


NO IT DOESN'T

People like you wih it did, but the people liek you charge money for doing a deisgn tahts creative for teh sake of it and does not look at wether it willa ctually create results. Like most SEo on the internet you are in my opinion pure snake oil.

 

Funny how you keep saying "it doesn't look good"

I wonder is that because you are in here to try to sell something. Youll notice I ahve no barnding nor email signature

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Why are you doing more multi-post rants? I've just agreed with you.

well clearlyw e are talking about being cnetral to a business suceeding, whcih marketing is.

Me too.... I think. :|

As for britain well we have the highest rate of teenage pregnancy, teh highest rate of STDs in Europe. the economy is knackered for the.

Oh sorry I should be proud of britain. reason I have described, everywhere you go is full of brainless tattoo covred idiots on yet another sink estate,

It is your attitude wthat is symptomatic -take a chill pill of why we are in the mir ewe are in.

What on earth are you going on about? That has NOTHING to do with the debate we're having. Literally, nothing. I have no idea how you've got from the definition of marketing to having a rage about teenage pregnancy and sexual diseases. Baffled. :|

Plus telling it like it is doe snot constitute a rant.
It constitutes telling it liek it is nothng more,nothing less.

It's a rant when you start making multiple posts of rage.

"Because marketing has a VERY vast meaning"

NO IT DOESN'T

Yes it does? Marketing involves price, product, promotion, research, strategy and more. It is not just one very specific thing.

People like you wih it did, but the people liek you charge money for doing a deisgn tahts creative for teh sake of it and does not look at wether it willa ctually create results. Like most SEo on the internet you are in my opinion pure snake oil.

Huh?

Not that it's any of your business, but I actually focus all of my services around results more than most other service providers out there. I'm also not an SEO.

I also don't understand how you think I'm 'snake oil' just because I agreed with your comment that marketing is at the centre of Google. Why are you insulting me because I agreed with you? :|

I really hope you move on from this forum fairly soon because you are, in my opinion, absolutely mental.

Funny how you keep saying "it doesn't look good"

I wonder is that because you are in here to try to sell something. Youll notice I ahve no barnding nor email signature

I said it once.

I'm not here to try and sell anything. I've been here for 4 and a half years.

It's probably a very good thing that you 'ahve' no 'barnding' or E-mail signature, because if you advertised your business alongside some of the posts you make on this forum, then no one would touch you with a barge pole.

If you disagree with that though, please feel free to post up the URL of your business.

 

[debbidoo]

Michael, my comments were in *support* of your argument Don't go digging me out because I'm not jabbing my finger and frothing at the mouth; it is possible to disagree with someone and smile while doing so I just happen to be pretty laid-back and reasonable, that's all - even during a disagreement

And your comments about Scott are totally unjustified. He's not an SEO, he's a marketer, copwriter and designer, and in fact *does* know what works and has the figures and customer testimonials to back him up

I came into this thread agreeing with you, and I still do agree with many of the points you've made. But I also agree with Scott that you need to calm down a little. You're not helping by ranting. Yes, "ranting" - you're so angry, you're hitting all the keys at once and it's becoming difficult to read your posts.

Take a deep breath, have a cup of tea/coffee/ciggie/whatever takes you to that happy place, and get back to the intelligent debating from your initial posts on this thread. They were far more interesting to read

And... *breathe*

 

[Clinton]

Anyway, in my opinion, marketing will be at the centre of everything commercial* Google do.

Google don't. Google is the worst example you could pick as a company with marketing at the centre of everything. Companies that want primarily to increase profits need to make more sales and that comes from better marketing. While Google does want more profit their primary goal is organising the world's information (they say). Outside of that they start and fund numerous projects for academic or experimental reasons that have nothing to do with sales. Part of the reason they are so successful is that they didn't focus on how to flog their crap but on building the most efficient products (some of which have no commercial prospects). The first was a search engine. It was an academic project from the start (no marketing) and didn't become a company till later. The project continued development as a company with no marketing till they hired a sales guy a year later. Even today they explore new ideas and spend huge amounts testing new theories without any thought for the commercial potential (that's why so many of the products flop ...but it's a good thing). No market research-consult the marketers BS. Give the engineers the money and time and let see what they come up with. It may have commercial potential or not.

I'm sure Google don't use marketing when one of their staff members makes a cup of tea

I suspect Google's PhDs do more with their 20% than making tea.

When you love what you do, when you've put a lot of time and effort into qualifying, and when you put every ounce of effort into doing a job well - criticism smarts

You may have misunderstood me. I do not mean to criticise you or what you do - marketing is a very important function for many organisations and I have huge respect for the intelligence, knowledge and expertise of the numerous marketing folk I know.

But I do attempt to expose the ridiculous assertion that marketing is at the centre of all business activity for the joke that it is. And the exaggeration that it is critical and indispensable to every business. To the extent marketing folk keep expanding the definition of marketing and stretching and stretching it to make them feel more important, they make a laughing stock of themselves.

You don't need marketing at the centre of everything to be a successful organisation (So KGB and MI5 - you can stop the TV ads telling people what you do). You don't need marketing at the centre of everything to be a successful company. You don't need marketing at the centre of all commercial activity to be a successful company.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

But I do attempt to expose the ridiculous assertion that marketing is at the centre of all business activity for the joke that it is. And the exaggeration that it is critical and indispensable to every business. To the extent marketing folk keep expanding the definition of marketing and stretching and stretching it to make them feel more important, they make a laughing stock of themselves.

You don't need marketing at the centre of everything to be a successful organisation (So KGB and MI5 - you can stop the TV ads telling people what you do). You don't need marketing at the centre of everything to be a successful company. You don't need marketing at the centre of all commercial activity to be a successful company.

I'm afraid you do in one form or another. If you didn't have marketing, then you wouldn't have a product (or you wouldn't have a product which anyone wants to buy) and no one would know about it. As soon as you tell people about it, or as soon as people start to find out about it, that's word of mouth. If the business makes a product/service appealing enough to be spread on word-of-mouth alone, that's marketing.

Any PR, any media exposure, any sales copy, any advertising, any referrals and any strategy to make money is all a form of marketing. In the realistic world, just imagine a business trying to start itself up and make money with absolutely no form of marketing. They could not do it.

It does depend on your definition of 'centre of everything' though, and I'm hoping this isn't just a debate surrounding a pedantic play on words. However, in my opinion, if any service or activity required marketing to be established and to even exist, then marketing is at the centre of it. Why? Because if you took away the marketing, took away the advertising and took away the word-of-mouth, then the service would cease to exist on any successful or any meaningful level.

As for Google, they wouldn't have the opportunity to spend 20% of their time on other projects and they wouldn't have time to do any of their non-commercial activities without marketing, because Google as we know it wouldn't exist. Without marketing, no one would know of their search engine, and no one would know of Adwords, so the big bulk of their initial income would never have existed. Marketing played (and still does play) a "critical and indispensable" part in what Google can do with their expertise and money - whether it's commercial, money-making or not.

This isn't just me as a marketer trying to 'big it up' here. I really do just think that in the realistic world, a business will fall flat on its face if it doesn't involve marketing at the core of its business processes. I have yet to come across any business where marketing has been a critical part of the success. I mean what could a business do?

"Right folks, we have our service all set up and we have our staff ready to work"

"What now?"

"Well we don't rely on marketing, so there's no website, no marketing materials, no sign above our premises, and we can't actually tell anyone about our service or convince them to use us in any form. So, I guess we just sit here and wait".

Now understanding this IS important for any business, as they can receive help with any of these things to generate and improve sales.

Oh and one more thing. Marketing doesn't necessarily have to involve making money. I suspect that non-for-profit organisations use marketing on a daily basis for other purposes. Just look at blood donation services for example.

 

[Clinton]

If you're not trying to big it up then would you accept the Oxford dictionary definition? Or even the Princeton one: "the commercial processes involved in promoting and selling and distributing a product or service".

No, if you're a marketer you likely want people to see marketing the way you see it and you refuse to accept both standard defintions and what most people understand by the term ...and choose instead to wring your hands in despair at their "lack of understanding". Marketing as a term is a good condom covering exactly what it needs to cover. Keep stretching it to envelope the whole body and you risk it bursting. And we don't want that.

As for Google, they wouldn't have the opportunity to spend 20% of their time on other projects and they wouldn't have time to do any of their non-commercial activities without marketing, because Google as we know it wouldn't exist.

Nice play on words That marketing is used in the core commercial function does not make it the centre of everything a business does. And that's what we are discussing. Google's 20% exists because there's a commercial, profit making business to fund the activity. That's not the same as marketing being at the centre of the 20% activity.

Businesses have goals outside of the commercial - from taking care of stakeholders, to benefiting the local community to environmental and phliantrophy work. God knows there must be marketing people frothing at the mouth at all this peripheral activity and itching to capitalise on it. But some good businesses avoid this contamination. Quite simply, and to state it again, marketing is not at the centre of everything a business does.

There is a different argument about whether it's essential at all and I've given several examples in a different thread about business models that are very successful without any marketing. What. So. Ever. (based on what the term actually means rather than on what marketers would like it to mean).

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

If you're not trying to big it up then would you accept the Oxford dictionary definition? Or even the Princeton one: "the commercial processes involved in promoting and selling and distributing a product or service".

Yes I would. Everything I've said still applies. There are a lot of processes involved in promoting, selling and distributing a product or service. Many of these processes are pretty much integral or central to the success of a business.

No, if you're a marketer you likely want people to see marketing the way you see it and you refuse to accept both standard defintions and what most people understand by the term ...and choose instead to wring your hands in despair at their "lack of understanding". Marketing as a term is a good condom covering exactly what it needs to cover. Keep stretching it to envelope the whole body and you risk it bursting. And we don't want that.

Nope. I accept the definitions . Mind you, there are many definitions, and I'm not more inclined to believe one over the other. However, in the realistic world, I know what marketing means and how it works.

Nice play on words That marketing is used in the core commercial function does not make it the centre of everything a business does. And that's what we are discussing.

I didn't say that 'marketing is used in the core commercial function'. Nice making words up out of thin air .

Google's 20% exists because there's a commercial, profit making business to fund the activity. That's not the same as marketing being at the centre of the 20% activity.

Why not? If you remove the marketing, then that '20%' you keep going on about couldn't exist. That's the centre to me, and I'd call it an integral part of the activity.

Plus, I'd bet that if you look closer into that '20% activity', there would be a number of essential marketing processes involved, which if you removed, would destabilise any worthwhile outcome.

Businesses have goals outside of the commercial - from taking care of stakeholders, to benefiting the local community to environmental and phliantrophy work. God knows there must be marketing people frothing at the mouth at all this peripheral activity and itching to capitalise on it. But some good businesses avoid this contamination. Quite simply, and to state it again, marketing is not at the centre of everything a business does.

It's in the centre of everything a business does in some form of another. As I said earlier, marketing doesn't have to involve making money or even making profit. Charities, philanthropists and local community aid all benefit from at least some form of marketing (using the definition you stated above if you wish to use it).

I'm not sure why you consider marketing some sort of toxic money-grabbing activity. If a blood donation service tries to seek new blood donors, then that's a form of marketing at work.

There is a different argument about whether it's essential at all and I've given several examples in a different thread about business models that are very successful without any marketing. What. So. Ever. (based on what the term actually means rather than on what marketers would like it to mean).

I bet they do actually use marketing in some form . If they didn't, then no one would even know that the business exists, and no one would be able to use it, i.e:

The commercial processes involved in promoting... a product or service

The commercial processes involved in.... distributing a product or service

By the way, if you're talking about online businesses, then even websites are a form of marketing (in the elements of promotion and possibly also distribution).

 

[MJBMI]

as Harry Hill would say
"theres only one way to settle this FIGHT FIGHT"

to the OP question.

my biggest frustration in marketing is some of the idiots involved in said industry. I call them textbook marketers, theyve read a load, they regurgitate it in generalistic formats and thats supposed to help grow a business.

 

[S-Marketing]

as Harry Hill would say
"theres only one way to settle this FIGHT FIGHT"

to the OP question.

my biggest frustration in marketing is some of the idiots involved in said industry. I call them textbook marketers, theyve read a load, they regurgitate it in generalistic formats and thats supposed to help grow a business.

You hit the nail on the head there mate. Not wanting to tar many consultants with the same brush, but a few CIM qualifications dont make you a marketing expert.

I have studied Marketing at University and sat Chartered Institute exams. Whilst they have value in providing background information they are no substitute for a natural flair for marketing.

In my (professional) opinion, marketing is in essence about differentiating yourself from the competition. Qualifications gained give everyone studying for them exactly the same information, and very much teach every pupil to think in the same way. In my mind, from a marketing perspective, this is counter productive. As much as I hate cheesy business catchphrases, marketing really must incorporate thinking 'outside the box'.

I have built my consultancy business around the idea that we are charging for unique and (even if I do say so myself) ingenious ideas based around sound marketing strategy. Not that we are just applying a set of rules and principles to our clients businesses.

 

[Sproston]

Yes, I'd agree that marketing is central to business success; if you wanted to take things to the nth degree, you could attribute everything to marketing. The logo design, and the shop sign on which it's displayed. Both come under the umbrella of marketing as a means to 'promote' the business. In fact, even manufacturing a shop sign itself is marketing, because if the sign is not manufactured, it cannot be seen, and no promotion of your business occurs.

However, if you as a marketer were approached to design and manufacture a sign; you would refer them to a design company. (I assume you would, I certainly would anyway)

Definitions of words are almost always subject to the opinion of the majority. Whilst the princeton/oxford/any other definition might not be perfect, if that's what the majority hold to be true...that is ultimately what is true.

I.e, I may use gay to describe happiness/joviality, but for the majority, that is not the definition.

 

[Kernowman]

You hit the nail on the head there mate. Not wanting to tar many consultants with the same brush, but a few CIM qualifications dont make you a marketing expert.

I have studied Marketing at University and sat Chartered Institute exams. Whilst they have value in providing background information they are no substitute for a natural flair for marketing.

In my (professional) opinion, marketing is in essence about differentiating yourself from the competition. Qualifications gained give everyone studying for them exactly the same information, and very much teach every pupil to think in the same way. In my mind, from a marketing perspective, this is counter productive. As much as I hate cheesy business catchphrases, marketing really must incorporate thinking 'outside the box'.

I have built my consultancy business around the idea that we are charging for unique and (even if I do say so myself) ingenious ideas based around sound marketing strategy. Not that we are just applying a set of rules and principles to our clients businesses.

You are right Stretchy, for most people the CIM qualification is about as much use as toilet paper if it isn't applied in the real world and there is such a thing as "natural marketers" who can work out an entire marketing strategy from top to bottom using their instinct, flair and lateral thinking alone, while those that have learned it all in the classroom can take weeks to come up with the wrong answers - I have seen it so many times.

Those kind of people should never be in marketing at all to be perfectly honest, but they do have a CIM qualification so they MUST be good at their jobs, right? It is that perception from outside of the industry which screws it all up for the people with real talent.

 

[Clinton]

I agree about the qualifications. What I learnt in the MBA was not a patch on what I learned from decades in business.

Good post, Scott. You'd be surprised at how much of what you've said I agree with.

Plus, I'd bet that if you look closer into that '20% activity', there would be a number of essential marketing processes involved, which if you removed, would destabilise any worthwhile outcome

Why would there be marketing processes involved? Employees are free to choose how they spend that time. Engineers may get into solving some complex software problem that has no practical use. Maths geniuses may target those famous unsolved $1 million problems. Not everyone employee is a closet marketer I did something like this once in a tech company I ran and it did wonders for staff morale. There was no marketing angle.

I bet they do actually use marketing in some form . If they didn't, then no one would even know that the business exists, and no one would be able to use it,

I agree. That applies to 99.9% of businesses. We won't go into the small minority but of the majority of businesses covered by that statement what happens if after the first year one achieves such a reputation that it can survive the next five on word of mouth? Would you agree that they marketed the first year - they had to - but needed no marketing at all in the subsequent five? (Bear in mind that a common man's understanding of word of mouth is that it's recommendation ...not that it is customers doing marketing on behalf of the company.)

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Why would there be marketing processes involved? Employees are free to choose how they spend that time. Engineers may get into solving some complex software problem that has no practical use. Maths geniuses may target those famous unsolved $1 million problems. Not everyone employee is a closet marketer I did something like this once in a tech company I ran and it did wonders for staff morale. There was no marketing angle.

Lets say the engineers have created something which they believe could be commercially successful. All they would need to do then is explain to the decision-makers how good it is, show them and convince them to take it seriously. That's marketing.

If you removed that, then these engineers wouldn't explain what their new idea is about, and they wouldn't explain why it's so good (i.e. features and benefits).

I'm talking realistically here though for the sake of a worthwhile debate. I don't think it's fair to refute the entire concept if one Google employee might spend their time doing something utterly pointless with no worthwhile outcome. If that happened, then yes, marketing wouldn't be at the centre of it, but what 'it' be? Business? I don't think so. It would just be nothing.

I agree. That applies to 99.9% of businesses. We won't go into the small minority but of the majority of businesses covered by that statement what happens if after the first year one achieves such a reputation that it can survive the next five on word of mouth? Would you agree that they marketed the first year - they had to - but needed no marketing at all in the subsequent five? (Bear in mind that a common man's understanding of word of mouth is that it's recommendation ...not that it is customers doing marketing on behalf of the company.)

I think you're talking about advertising. I'd agree that some companies don't need to advertise at all (apart from possibly in the initial start-up stages) to have a successful business.

Marketing, in my opinion, incorporates all that is involved in this commercial process - whether the business does it or not. For customers to increase sales through word-of-mouth, then the business would at one point have sold the product/service to them (even if it involved a brief explanation of the services and benefits of using it). That's all marketing.

In fact, you could say that word-of-mouth is in itself part of a marketing strategy. A business could create a marketing strategy where they spend less on advertising, as word-of-mouth marketing is carrying them forward.

I'm not just arguing for the sake of it here though. It's a good thing for all businesses and start-ups to realise how important every facet of marketing is. There's a big problem these days where a novice sets up a business and just expects the visitors/customers to appear out of nowhere. Sure they've set up the actual service/product, and sure they've set up the back-end (such as stock, finances etc), but they've completely forgot about any form of marketing and actually telling or showing anyone what they sell.

 

[Clinton]

There's a big problem these days where a novice sets up a business and just expects the visitors/customers to appear out of nowhere.

That is true. The customers won't just come (for 99.9% of businesses).

But when they come and then go out and tell their friends, their act in telling their friends is not marketing, my friend

In fact, you could say that word-of-mouth is in itself part of a marketing strategy. A business could create a marketing strategy where they spend less on advertising, as word-of-mouth marketing is carrying them forward.

That's the bit I find hilarious. If a business decides it needs no marketing for a couple of years because past marketing has unexpectedly resulted in a huge base of repeat customers, then we need to accept that this business needs no marketing for a couple of years. You can't retrospectively call what they did previously a "marketing strategy". Well I suppose a marketer can call it whatever he wants ...but I ain't buying it

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

But when they come and then go out and tell their friends, their act in telling their friends is not marketing, my friend

It isn't advertising (well it is in theory) but I think it's a form of marketing. It can also be an integral part in a marketing strategy, so might that in itself mean that it can be categorised as marketing?

Put it this way. If no form of marketing happened, then it's impossible that the word-of-mouth would have happened either.

That's the bit I find hilarious. If a business decides it needs no marketing for a couple of years because past marketing has unexpectedly resulted in a huge base of repeat customers, then we need to accept that this business needs no marketing for a couple of years. You can't retrospectively call what they did previously a "marketing strategy". Well I suppose a marketer can call it whatever he wants ...but I ain't buying it

This is what I would agree with if you changed one word:

If a business decides it needs no advertising for a couple of years because past advertising has unexpectedly resulted in a huge base of repeat customers, then we need to accept that this business needs no advertising for a couple of years.

I'd 100% agree with that as it's common sense. If word-of-mouth is creating sufficient sales, then the business doesn't necessarily need advertising. Spot on.

At the end of the day though, even if a business no longer needs to advertise, it will still take an active interest in marketing. It will have a marketing strategy, it will have a brand, it will have branded correspondence, it will have certain prices, it will take into account competition and so on.

Mind you, in the real world, 'marketing' is sometimes synonymous with any form of promotion or generating interest about a product/service. That's why it's often used as over 'advertising' as it can incorporate SEO, PPC, PR and so on. However, actual marketing as a whole involves so many different things involved with buying and selling - such as product, price, promotion, strategy, brand awareness, product/service awareness, word-of-mouth and so on.

 

[Clinton]

At the end of the day though, even if a business no longer needs to advertise, it will still take an active interest in marketing.

Not necessarily. It may continue using the old letterheads to save money, it's not always because a board level decision was taken to keep up the branding. That the brand exists, competition exists, price exists doesn't mean they are all part of a grand strategy.

If a customer voluntarily spreading the word of a company's product is marketing then we're back a full circle to scrapping the standard definition and common understanding of the term marketing - and the term recommendation - to replace it with some marketer-constructed mumbo-jumbo instead.

 

[Indivijewelistic]

Marketing aimed at entirely the wrong person:

Putting a lot of money into producing a glossy colour brochure aim at, say, providing flooring. They monitor the planning register and send a copy of this to five people in the same company called, something like hhp planning services. Because, past granting planning these people never again have anything to do with the building of this project (all five copies will be in the recycle bin as soon as the secretary opens them).

On the flip side of the coin, large mail-outs to places like KFC trying to get work arraning their planning needs which is sent direct to the shop. The manager of that shop doesn't give a hoot what planning is going on, he is only interested in keeping down his overheads, waste etc. and selling chicken.

Having leaflets put through my door for fast food delivery from a shop that is so far away from me the food will be cold before it gets here - its just senseless. You might have marketed by postcode, but where is that postcode in relation to your shop?

Marketing people that phone up and lie: "Hi, this is BB Blinds, your husband phoned me the other day to enquire about blinds for you conservatory" A) I don't have a husband, B) I don't have a conservatory - but I have your company name now and I know you are liars.

I have a few more, but clearly am sounding like a grumpy old lady so will leave it there:redface:

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Not necessarily. It may continue using the old letterheads to save money, it's not always because a board level decision was taken to keep up the branding. That the brand exists, competition exists, price exists doesn't mean they are all part of a grand strategy.

It does. Branding, pricing dealing with competition and many other things are ALL a part of marketing. I like to think of businesses being broken up into three sections:

1). The actual products or services
2). The back-end stuff such as finances, stock, bills, organisation and so on
3). The marketing - consisting of EVERYTHING which bridges the gap between the products/services and consumer. This involves a huge number of different activities and scenarios which can often also apply to many non-commercial elements. By that I mean marketing activities aren't always necessarily involved in the direct selling or distribution of a product or service. For example, a promotional presentation could be involved internally amongst staff and departments.

If a customer voluntarily spreading the word of a company's product is marketing then we're back a full circle to scrapping the standard definition and common understanding of the term marketing - and the term recommendation - to replace it with some marketer-constructed mumbo-jumbo instead.

Nope. It even works with the definition which you wanted me to take notice of:

the commercial processes involved in promoting and selling and distributing a product or service

Is word-of-mouth a process involved in promoting a product or service? Yes it is.

 

[Clinton]

I sneezed this morning. I guess that was a communication to my wife that I needed Sudafed, so you could say I started this morning being a marketer for Johnson and Johnson (or was I promoting the GetWell Village Pharmacy?)

Is word-of-mouth a process

Yes it is. But the definition doesn't mention just process, it's specifies commercial process and word of mouth ain't.

Look we're aren't ever going to agree on this so let's move on.

Business....three sctions ....1). The actual products or services
2). The back-end stuff such as finances, stock, bills, organisation and so on
3). The marketing

That's reasonable and that's how business is. There have been some rants earlier by others about marketing being at the centre of all business activity and no business function being untouched by marketing. Several of my posts were targeted at that ridiculous assertion.

I have a few more, but clearly am sounding like a grumpy old lady so will leave it there:redface:

Not grumpy at all. In fact, your post was a welcome tonic for my manflu this morning.

Viva also to Johnson and Johnson for their life saving products!

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I sneezed this morning. I guess that was a communication to my wife that I needed Sudafed, so you could say I started this morning being a marketer for Johnson and Johnson (or was I promoting the GetWell Village Pharmacy?)

If you wanted to bend the definition of marketing a ridiculous amount, then I guess you could. However, you seem to be the one advocating against that the most.

No one needs to be a marketer for anything for a marketing process to take place.

Yes it is. But the definition doesn't mention just process, it's specifies commercial process and word of mouth ain't.

Commercial just means that the process is involved with commerce, and commerce describes the concept of an interchange of products and services. It doesn't really mean much.

Anyway, I wouldn't say Princeton has the absolute true definition of marketing, and I have absolutely no reason to find their definition more credible than anyone else's.

Just look at dictionary.com:

"1. the act of buying or selling in a market.



2. the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising, shipping, storing, and selling"

Or Webster:

"n. 1. The act of selling or of purchasing in, or as in, a market.
2. Articles in, or from, a market; supplies.
3. The activities required by a producer to sell his products, including advertising, storing, taking orders, and distribution to vendors or individuals."

Taking some of those at face value could literally mean ANYTHING - even a sneeze . Webster is even the first definition to explicitly mention activities by the producer (unlike the rest of them) - which in my opinion is far too precise to be a worthwhile definition, but that's just my opinion.

Either way, we could spend ages picking holes in one of the many varying definitions out there.

Look we're aren't ever going to agree on this so let's move on.

Alright .

That's reasonable and that's how business is. There have been some rants earlier by others about marketing being at the centre of all business activity and no business function being untouched by marketing. Several of my posts were targeted at that ridiculous assertion.

Well I'd agree that it isn't at the centre of ALL business activity. That doesn't make any sense. If a computer technician is fixing a computer, then the fixing of the computer is at the centre of the business activity at the time. Not the marketing.

However, that service certainly wouldn't have happened without at least some form of marketing (both of the definitions I posted up there fortify that point), so whilst it might not be at the absolute centre of the business activity at the time, it still plays a current and integral role.

 

[CraigieDD]

How can I put this NO NO AND NO.


If you learn nothing else learn one thing YOU CAN NOT ARTIFICIALLY CREATE INTEREST IN SOMETHING

Disagree.

Just look at Homer Simpson...

 

[Frimley111R]

What happened the the OP's question and related anwers? This just turned into a long thread about the definition of marketing.

Shocking I know but, in answer to the OP's question:

Accurate measurement is an ongoing challenge. Results can be affected by so many variable such as the weather, time of year, economic climate, relevant current news, etc.

People who say they are Marketing Managers (or whatever marketing related title they have) but no next to bugger all about marketing.

There are lots more but I'd add another 7 pages!

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

What happened the the OP's question and related anwers? This just turned into a long thread about the definition of marketing.

Shocking I know but, in answer to the OP's question:

Accurate measurement is an ongoing challenge. Results can be affected by so many variable such as the weather, time of year, economic climate, relevant current news, etc.

People who say they are Marketing Managers (or whatever marketing related title they have) but no next to bugger all about marketing.

There are lots more but I'd add another 7 pages!

This is almost a three month old thread and the OP hasn't been back here for almost 2 months, so I doubt he'll have the opportunity to read it.