does a certified electrician have to rewire a house?

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saxondale

  • #122
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  • #125
    Steve Cool said:
    Earl, Part P concerns residential dwellings, surly that building your son rewired is not a house. Is it??

    Best leave the sparking to your son and keep the google twiddling to yourself.:)

    Steve
    Click to expand...

    Well its now the Headquarters of MI6 so I suspect quite a bit of sleeping goes on there.

    Gregs been at it for 26 years now so there is not much he does not know,except what a bullsh1tter his old man is.:)

    Earl
     
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    Atilla

    Atilla

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  • #131
    Bri said:
    ... something like that in the pot, the others seem to know better, the OP is probably on 2nd fix by now. Dont get wound up by them, they do it on purpose.
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    Bri,
    No wind up. Question was posted, advice given. Unfortunately spurious and ill founded duff advice was also posted only clouding the issue.

    I take it you're quite happy to trust the work of the local bodger on Fire Systems and happily sign off said works irrespective of 5859 requirements..?

    Thought not.
     
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    B

    Bri

  • #133
    Atilla said:
    Bri,
    No wind up. Question was posted, advice given. Unfortunately spurious and ill founded duff advice was also posted only clouding the issue.

    I take it you're quite happy to trust the work of the local bodger on Fire Systems and happily sign off said works irrespective of 5859 requirements..?

    Thought not.
    Click to expand...

    And both you and Saxondale are right, I do agree wholly and on some other issues we've crossed on, valid points have been made on both sides. I'm only pointing out that one liner comments only go to winding up people and is not constructive. Steve couldve have recommended the OP someone in Building control to advise instead of 'so what' and sometimes holier than thou attitudes, may have gained another customer for a security/ cctv system in the process.Agree to disagree thats fine but by virtue of the fact the business we are in we are expected to give advice and direction. Advice is free, if I get my screwdriver out it then costs.

    I'm certain it was a typo, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but its 5839 for Fire detection systems and yes I wouldnt, in fact I walked away from one a month ago and that was installed by a third party accredited company, just goes to show, badges eh!!!
     
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    A

    applemaidcleaning

  • #135
    If i am right they have to be certified and registered with NIC, and i think PAT tested registered, Qualified to City & Guilds or equiv. :)

    They need to know what they are doing, a few laws based around electrical wiring - things like by law has to be replaced every 50 years and so on.. :)
     
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    Atilla

    Atilla

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  • #138
    Bri said:
    And both you and Saxondale are right, I do agree wholly and on some other issues we've crossed on, valid points have been made on both sides. I'm only pointing out that one liner comments only go to winding up people and is not constructive. Steve couldve have recommended the OP someone in Building control to advise instead of 'so what' and sometimes holier than thou attitudes, may have gained another customer for a security/ cctv system in the process.Agree to disagree thats fine but by virtue of the fact the business we are in we are expected to give advice and direction. Advice is free, if I get my screwdriver out it then costs.

    I'm certain it was a typo, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but its 5839 for Fire detection systems and yes I wouldnt, in fact I walked away from one a month ago and that was installed by a third party accredited company, just goes to show, badges eh!!!
    Click to expand...
    One of the probs with posting the 'definitive' explanation was copy had been disabled from the document. (sorted now :cool:).
    It would have required serious typing to post on the thread. Twas easier to post the link. That said, most didn't seem to want to search Google for info but were happy enough to post misinformation then argue the point.

    And yes, sorry, typo. Awash with regs.
    Having just got back off site, i know exactly what you mean re badges.
     
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    paulears

    paulears

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  • #140
    This is what confuses everyone - you state it is the law, but without any explanation. A person with the usual C&G certification, and able to sign off his own work, is also able to sign off the work of others - as in when working with a team of sparks. There is no rule stating that everyone signs off their own. Somebody takes the responsibility, and signs. If some of these other sparks did not even have C&G certification, is does not matter.

    Unlike other countries, there is no law - as in statutory instrument - in place.

    What we do have now is a list of organisations who have demonstrated they have quality systems in place that allow them to verify certification.

    Most of what we have in the UK are systems that simply test competence - and this, if there was a problem is down to the court to decide. Bodies such as the HSE set out what essentially is best practice. Not following it, if there is a problem, would be sufficient evidence that competence was compromised - but there simply isn't a law that says an electrician must have XYZ qualification or membership of the ABC society.

    Most people involved will have these things - but claiming laws exist is simply wrong. Laws exist to enable action to be taken after events take place.

    So - tell me what Law would be broken if a person did some wiring or other electrical work, then got say a friend who is a 'proper' electrician to test and certificate?

    At the moment, I'm in a really interesting 'test' where the HSE wish to put a prohibition notice on a piece of common access equipment to prevent one particular use - which the manufacturer won't approve. A trade association safe the practice when controlled is safe. HSE say it isn't. The only action that will take place is the HSE actually banning it. This won't stop people doing it, of course - BUT means the consequence of having an accident will be pretty serious. It won't be a law, in the same way what we're talking about is not law - it just can be used against you when it goes wrong.

    Oh - and as for wiring having to be replaced after a number of years? Nope. Old wiring, in good condition and tested is not a problem at all. New wiring has to be to current standards, old wiring, done to earlier versions of the spec doesn't have to be changed when the specs change.

    In the field in which I work, we're constantly shipping kit around that has fairly complex distribution systems - starting with either 125A or 63A three phase outlets, eventually splitting down to 16A and 15A outlets. So we have tons of 16A cables, loads of 15A TRS, multicore distribution (normally 6 way 2.5mm fed). Sometimes, we're dealing with single core feeder cables with L1,L2,L3,N,E all connected separately to generator sets or venue panels.

    Cables get regularly checked for damage and reterminated - rarely are the people who do this C&Q qualified, but they don't do domestic electrics. Seems very odd that so much fuss is made about domestic kit working with much lower single phase capacity?
     
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    Atilla

    Atilla

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  • #141
    paulears said:
    This is what confuses everyone - you state it is the law, but without any explanation. A person with the usual C&G certification, and able to sign off his own work, is also able to sign off the work of others - as in when working with a team of sparks. There is no rule stating that everyone signs off their own. Somebody takes the responsibility, and signs. If some of these other sparks did not even have C&G certification, is does not matter.

    Unlike other countries, there is no law - as in statutory instrument - in place.
    Click to expand...
    Have you read any of this thread? It would seem not.

    You clearly haven't read the Building Regs.

    Also, strangely, in reference to the OP. A qualified sparks is not able to sign off domestic work unless he/she has the relevant cert behind them. Not all have you know.
     
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    applemaidcleaning

  • #143
    Atilla said:
    Did you just make all that up?
    Click to expand...



    Nope,

    If a bloke goes to a commercial building he is required to have a certificate
    If a bloke goes to commercial building to do any soldering he requires a certificate.

    It is the same with wiring, can you wire a house up, i cant

    I do not no anything about amps, earthing, or what has water is running through. :D:D

    You have to be gas registered / GasSafe registered and have the right certificate to play with gas.
     
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    estwig

    estwig

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  • #146
    applemaidcleaning said:
    Nope,

    If a bloke goes to a commercial building he is required to have a certificate
    If a bloke goes to commercial building to do any soldering he requires a certificate.

    It is the same with wiring, can you wire a house up, i cant

    I do not no anything about amps, earthing, or what has water is running through. :D:D

    You have to be gas registered / GasSafe registered and have the right certificate to play with gas.
    Click to expand...

    That's all completely wrong, stick to cleaning stuff.

    :)<simile to diffuse my rudness!!
     
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    paulears

    paulears

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  • #147
    Will somebody PLEASE cite these regulations - Soldering? Many, many years ago my original qualification was centred around radio frequency engineering - something I discovered too late that I really didn't like. However, my toolbox features a soldering iron, and I have used it in hundreds of buildings, domestic and commercial over the years. The only certificate ANYONE has ever asked for is risk assessment.

    To Atilla - yep, read the thread and no - I certainly have not read the building regulations you probably mean. I have, though, read the model regulations for the buildings I work in, and stand by my comments.

    You conveniently do not answer certain questions, and post very ambiguous text, dressed up as an answer.
    A qualified sparks is not able to sign off domestic work unless he/she has the relevant cert
    Click to expand...
    So - do tell me, what exactly is this certificate required to produce a certificate?

    Ok - let me put this as simply as I can.

    You can do your own electrical work if you are competent to do so. Anyone who undertakes electrical work should be able to satisfy the requirements of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 and the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989. You should be able to work within the guidelines set out in BS7671 'Requirements for electrical installations. IEE Wiring Regulations. Seventeenth edition'.



    A person can demonstrate competence to perform electrical work if he or she has successfully completed an assessed training course that has included the type of work being considered, run by an accredited training organisation, most commonly, the City and Guilds Institution, and has been able to demonstrate an ability to understand electrical theory and put this into practice. A successfully completed electrical apprenticeship, with some post apprenticeship experience is a good way of demonstrating competence for general electrical work.


    If there are some laws I don't know about, then do tell me - but without sarcasm or holier than thou attitude, which really rubs. I'm very happy to be put right - with REAL, robust, reliable and sufficient evidence, not rumour.
     
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    skyhi2

  • #150
    @ AMC,no,you can not play around with gas in general.

    But if it is your own house,and you are competent,you can mess around with it as much as you like,fit your own central heating,bung another gas fire in,stuff another Aga or two in the kitchen,yep,just about anything really.

    Skyhi2.
     
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    Deleted member 9840

  • #155
    paulears said:
    Laws exist to enable action to be taken after events take place.
    Click to expand...

    People, read this. Read it again and then try to understand it, because this is what it is all about.

    Cheers Paul, you have hit the nail on the head.

    My anecdotal evidence is quite simply in my Dad. He has every qualification an electrician could possibly have, he has successfully run an electrical contracting company for a number of years (after retiring as a Bank manager :|) , he is an inspector for NAPIT and a lecturer in electrical engineering at the local college.............but he can not work on the electrics in his own house simply because his insurance will not allow it.

    Nobody to sue in event of a claim.

    Steve
     
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    shagg

  • #157
    Hi guys I'v been folloing this thread with great interest. And this is the main problem with part p. there is a main contradiction in the doc in question.

    At present there are two ways too have electrical work undertaken in the domestic market for notifiable work (major work)

    1) call a part p registered electrician under one of the reg schemes( niceic , napits or elecsa ) who are tested every year to set standards to be able to test and certificate they own work without the aid of an building inspector from the local builing control.

    2) A 'Competent Person' (and this includes, electricians who are not registered with years of experience) can undertake electrical work as long as they serve a building notice 2 day BEFORE work starts. the building control should come and inspect the work during the 1st fix and test after 2nd fix. some times they don't but that is another story and debate.

    Now the problem we have is the debate of competency and the meaning. I personally don't think this is the correct way of doing things. Because who is to say that someone with no qualifications but years and years of exprience is any less COMPETENT than someone who's so called fully qualified with not much exprience (like those short 5 day courses that seem to be everywhere at the moment)

    It all boils down to what happens if someone died and the case went to court. the first thing that will be asked of, is can the person provide evidence to prove competency. So if you have no qualifications I would think your are prenty much in jail for the rest of your life.

    As for another part p electrician, signing off the work after completion this is not aloud by the part p scheme providers

    I think the only way forward, is for (like stated earlier) to ensure safe electrical work and part p enforcement, is for the fully and i mean fully qualified electricians to be issued with a card. And no electrical accessories to be sold without producing the card issued. I can't remember how many Dangerous situations i'v seen by someone messing with electric who think's they know what their doing and builders ten to be the worse:p

    TRIXYBEN if your still unsure contact your local council and ask to speak with the local building control or google one of the part p schemes and ask them.
     
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    saxondale

  • #159
    shagg said:
    Hi guys I'v been folloing this thread with great interest. And this is the main problem with part p. there is a main contradiction in the doc in question.

    At present there are two ways too have electrical work undertaken in the domestic market for notifiable work (major work)

    1) call a part p registered electrician under one of the reg schemes( niceic , napits or elecsa ) who are tested every year to set standards to be able to test and certificate they own work without the aid of an building inspector from the local builing control.

    2) A 'Competent Person' (and this includes, electricians who are not registered with years of experience) can undertake electrical work as long as they serve a building notice 2 day BEFORE work starts. the building control should come and inspect the work during the 1st fix and test after 2nd fix. some times they don't but that is another story and debate.

    Now the problem we have is the debate of competency and the meaning. I personally don't think this is the correct way of doing things. Because who is to say that someone with no qualifications but years and years of exprience is any less COMPETENT than someone who's so called fully qualified with not much exprience (like those short 5 day courses that seem to be everywhere at the moment)

    It all boils down to what happens if someone died and the case went to court. the first thing that will be asked of, is can the person provide evidence to prove competency. So if you have no qualifications I would think your are prenty much in jail for the rest of your life.

    As for another part p electrician, signing off the work after completion this is not aloud by the part p scheme providers

    I think the only way forward, is for (like stated earlier) to ensure safe electrical work and part p enforcement, is for the fully and i mean fully qualified electricians to be issued with a card. And no electrical accessories to be sold without producing the card issued. I can't remember how many Dangerous situations i'v seen by someone messing with electric who think's they know what their doing and builders ten to be the worse:p

    TRIXYBEN if your still unsure contact your local council and ask to speak with the local building control or google one of the part p schemes and ask them.
    Click to expand...


    my bold - unless your called testaplug (address on website, spiders)
     
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