Performing Rights Society - Is there a legal obligation to join?

blackandwhite1986 · Jul 10, 2008

My company has recently had a phone call from the Performing Rights Society informing us that "as we have the radio on and play music, we are breaking the law as we do not have their license to do so in public".

Just to give a bit more info' , my workplace consists of three factory spaces consisting of apprx. 10 employees plus 4 offices consisting of 5 more employees.

We have just received an invoice based on how many employees are usually present. Further to this, the statement clearly says "thankyou for joining the PRS".

For starters, we did not join but were pressurised as we were told we faced fines "if we continued playing the radio". We have spoken to some customers/suppliers in the same area who when contacted replied with "f**k off"

Can anyone confirm if this is a legal requirement, we still have not paid the bill and to be honest if we have to were just going to not allow the radio on as it is quite frankly ridiculous.

Cheers.

n7 Studios · Jul 10, 2008

Sadly, yes, you're supposed to pay it.

However, what will really get your back up is that the radio stations ALSO pay PRS to play music, along with businesses paying PRS to play it to their employees (talk about a double standard, eh?). There have even been cases of PRS hammering down on little old ladies playing music in little charity shops through the radio, mainly for their own enjoyment.

I have also heard of many businesses ignoring PRS - but I'm not sure what the implications would be on this one. Google PRS - MCPS Alliance, there's a section for Offices and Factories. Sorry I can't provide a link, but I've not made enough posts yet

In short, the whole PRS licensing system is a mess. A colleague of mine recently spoke to them up in Glasgow at the recent Radio Academy event, and there is talk of restructuring the licensing fee system to make it fairer.

Tim.

blackandwhite1986 · Jul 10, 2008

n7 Studios said:
Sadly, yes, you're supposed to pay it.

However, what will really get your back up is that the radio stations ALSO pay PRS to play music, along with businesses paying PRS to play it to their employees (talk about a double standard, eh?). There have even been cases of PRS hammering down on little old ladies playing music in little charity shops through the radio, mainly for their own enjoyment.

I have also heard of many businesses ignoring PRS - but I'm not sure what the implications would be on this one. Google PRS - MCPS Alliance, there's a section for Offices and Factories. Sorry I can't provide a link, but I've not made enough posts yet

In short, the whole PRS licensing system is a mess. A colleague of mine recently spoke to them up in Glasgow at the recent Radio Academy event, and there is talk of restructuring the licensing fee system to make it fairer.

Tim.

Tim I was thinking exactly the same thing. We pay enough all ready!

Radio is a great motivator for our workforce. Personal stereos are not an option under H+S.

I've just seen Feargal Sharkey harping on about "the importance of PRS for artists" Bit ironic considering he was in a punk band

Stonelaughter · Jul 11, 2008

I think it's in such a mess that the PRS are looking to get a case to Court to set a precedent (unless they have already???). If that's what they're doing then using a reply phrased in the guttural is a risky strategy - they may just use you as their guinea pig case or add you to a Class Action claim!

n7 Studios · Jul 11, 2008

By the way - how do the PRS actually know you're playing music in the factory?

blackandwhite1986 · Jul 11, 2008

N7,

They basically rung up asked if they could ask a few questions, I took the call said "yeah no problem" thinking it was just one of those surveys. After giving information I was then informed I/we were acting illegally and they were calling on behalf of the PRS. Maybe it was my own fault as usually I do ask who is calling beforehand. I have traced the call and it was from a call centre and I do think it was perhaps slightly underhand the way they gained info. Since then my MD has spoken to them and said send us info and we will review.

Stonelaughter,

Telling them to "F off" would be an ideal, no one in our company would ever speak to someone like that!

Mattonella Tile Studio · Jul 11, 2008

They are devious. I rang them up to apply for a licence and they asked a whole series of questions. Can't remember exactly how it came about but I answered one question with the stereo is in the building but not in use. They then gave me the price, and it was higher than on the website. I asked why and they said the website price was specially reduced as a loyalty thing in the second year.

Now I'd read the website in great detail and the first year is more expensive if you've been caught playing music without a licence, so I asked him outright if this was in fact why it was more expensive.

He said that you've admitted to having a stereo in the building so yes, we're fining you. I argued that I admitted having a stereo in the building that was not in use, in fact not even plugged in.

He eventually charged me the correct rate.

Point is, if I'd just have rang up and accepted their first fee I'd have been paying a lot more than I needed to.

blackandwhite1986 · Jul 11, 2008

I agree, perhaps it is the manner that it was carried out that leaves a bad taste.

What really gets me is that it is always take take take. Ok, were not talking mega bucks in terms of the PRS license, but for example once I design, manufacture and release an electronics product to the market place and have been paid (like songwriting, recording and relasing music) I then do not expect a royality everytime it is used!

We are a medium sized business, feeling the pinch from the credit crunch. My primary role is Sales however I spend 1 day a week on Health and Safety. I don't see any support from the government when buying equipement or losing time and money bringing ourself up to legislation or training other members of staff when we are potentially losing out on bringing in new business.

Bit of a rant sorry!

n7 Studios · Jul 11, 2008

Absolutely understand where you're both coming from. This is typical of PRS, and they have been doing this for years.

They phone up companies, asking some questions, without really telling you why. At the end of it, if you've answered the questions to basically say that you're playing music in an office / factory etc, they "kindly" inform you that you need to pay a fee.

I agree that the way they do this is underhand, and as I said a review is currently underway. I'll speak to my colleague over the weekend hopefully, and find out what is happening with regards to licensing. I doubt they will scrap it, but there is talk of making it more transparent and improving this process.

For anyone else who may come across a phone call in the situation - always ask who is calling, and find out about them first. If they are calling from PRS / MCPS, ask what it is in connection with, and if necessary, state that you are too busy to take the call etc. I don't wish to condone breaking the law by not paying the license, but if PRS are unaware of the situation in the first place, there isn't much they can do.

blackandwhite1986 · Jul 11, 2008

Good advice N7. Cheers for having a look into it.

Mattonella Tile Studio · Jul 11, 2008

Top of my head suggestion now but is there a way that you could purchase a different version of a CD that you wished to play that came with an individual licence for public performance. Scrap PRS licence as the licence is paid for with purchase. The immediate benefit to the artists here is that they are being paid for their work. I don't wish to cause offence here but I would never play Cliff Richard here, but he is getting some money from us. As Jamie Cullum gets played a lot he should have more share.

As I said, top of head suggestion that hasn't been fully thought through (as I'm supposed to be working), but could it have merits as the basis for an overhaul?

blackandwhite1986 · Jul 14, 2008

Possibly, but I can't help but refer to my previous point where as with any commercial venture, if you feel that you will not earn enough, then you take that into account before releasing it into the marketplace - not after.

I understand that a lot of "artists" earn only a fraction of the revenue produced, however, like the rest of us....if you are not earning enough in your current job, then you try to move onto something that pays better.

Perhaps instead of trying to take more money off of Joe Public they should address their label, financial and management contracts first.

P.S I am a huge music fan so don't think I am having a pop out of jealousy, i just don't see how you can license something like music, unless it is being used for example as marketing device

reggiemental · Jul 14, 2008

I agree. Joe Public is such an easy target. How else would certain footballers be earning 200k a week, without JP getting charged extortionate prices for watching a game.

No different with music. The radio stations already pay PRS fees for every record played. And how do these bands become 'stars'? Well, radio play certainly doesn't hurt. But no, let's not just leave it there. Joe Public ought to be bolstering these so-called artists' pension funds. Let's charge them also for listening to the radio, as well as buying the CD. I wonder how many records have been bought over the years, by someone who'd heard it on the factory radio. We're already promoting these recording artists by playing their music to our workforces. So you end up with certain DJ's earning millions, the bands are doing very nicely thank you, and we as usual are picking up the bill.

Now we have the internet, collecting royalties isn't so easy anymore. The artists have to work harder to build their wealth. Targetting business owners with 'legal' threats is an easy option. We'll be taxed for whistleing a tune soon.

We're our own worst enemies though. I bet there's more than one member here who will go and buy a magazine, just because it's running a story featuring Jordan and Peter. Look how much Angeline Jolie and Brad Pitt are getting for the pictures of their newborns. There'll be the usual rush to buy the magazine no doubt.

The entertainment/sports industry is one big money-making machine, funded by the minions. I just hope more people stand their ground and tell these money-grabbing PRS people to FO.

We're already promoting the artists by playing their music to our workforces. The PRS people should be paying us!

blackandwhite1986 · Jul 14, 2008

Amen to that reggiemental!

DanMartin · Jul 17, 2008

I received a press release from the PRS this week. This is the text:

Thousands of small businesses could be breaking copyright law

The Performing Right Society (PRS) is writing to tens of thousands of small businesses to make them aware of the consequences of, and possible legal action that could result from, breaking UK copyright law by playing music without a licence from PRS.

The law ensures that the UK's 60,000 songwriters and composers that PRS represents - who are small businesses themselves - receive royalties for the use of their work.

PRS aims to ensure that all businesses that play music in public - for example, to customers or employees - understand that permission to do so is needed from the writers and composers of that music.

Music provides a clear business benefit: it improves staff morale and productivity, enhances atmosphere and influences customer behavior.

Keith Gilbert, Managing Director, PRS Public Performance Sales, says: "PRS is a vital source of income to the creators of music, 90% of whom earn less than £5,000 a year in royalties. We are writing to businesses to raise awareness of the value of music to their business and of the need to buy a PRS Music Licence which reimburses those who created that music.

"Around 300,000 organisations are acting within the law and already have a PRS Music Licence. But, often unknowingly, many thousands more are not, and we want those companies to be aware that they need to adhere to UK copyright law and to buy a PRS Music Licence."

A PRS Music Licence can cost as little as £66 a year. It gives any premises permission to play over 10 million pieces of music - from pop to classical and every style and genre in between - in all formats including radio, TV, CD, MP3 and telephone 'on-hold' systems. PRS Music Licences are tailored according to the size of business and the way in which music is being played.

Businesses can call 0800 068 48 28 for advice on when they need a PRS music licence or visit www.prs.co.uk

blackandwhite1986 · Jul 17, 2008

Cheers Dan,

I have just received the same PR.

Keith Gilbert, Managing Director, PRS Public Performance Sales, says: "PRS is a vital source of income to the creators of music, 90% of whom earn less than £5,000 a year in royalties. We are writing to businesses to raise awareness of the value of music to their business and of the need to buy a PRS Music Licence which reimburses those who created that music.

What a cop out, it's easy cash in other words. Writers and composers choose to release their music to the radio stations and are not forced as it is the biggest marketing device they can utilse. Take that away and then lets see their reaction.

I have now decided to perform my own composistions on an air guitar to improve staff morale.

reggiemental · Jul 17, 2008

blackandwhite1986 said:
I have now decided to perform my own composistions on an air guitar to improve staff morale.

Now that, I'd pay to see!

Stonelaughter · Jul 17, 2008

Does this mean that, as a partner in a Partnership, if I'm working on some invoices at home and playing some music on my MP3 or my PC while I work, that I need a PRS licence... but if I stop working on invoices and start playing Doom instead, that I can listen without a licence?

They are talking nonsense... and I can't wait to see the first time someone calls their bluff and allows this to come to Court. As someone said, the licence to broadcast the music is held by the radio station; by having the radio switched on, the small business is not RE-broadcasting, they are making use of an already licenced broadcast. What about bigger businesses? Why aren't they targeting the SMEs and the corporates? I'll tell you why - because those companies have the wherewithall to allow this to proceed to Court and the PRS know they're chancing their arm.

blackandwhite1986 · Jul 17, 2008

Stonelaughter said:
Does this mean that, as a partner in a Partnership, if I'm working on some invoices at home and playing some music on my MP3 or my PC while I work, that I need a PRS licence... but if I stop working on invoices and start playing Doom instead, that I can listen without a licence?

They are talking nonsense... and I can't wait to see the first time someone calls their bluff and allows this to come to Court. As someone said, the licence to broadcast the music is held by the radio station; by having the radio switched on, the small business is not RE-broadcasting, they are making use of an already licenced broadcast. What about bigger businesses? Why aren't they targeting the SMEs and the corporates? I'll tell you why - because those companies have the wherewithall to allow this to proceed to Court and the PRS know they're chancing their arm.

Stonelaughter,

We are actually considering how far we can take this. It would be great to hear if anyone else is thinking the same thing or has indeed done it?

Stonelaughter · Jul 17, 2008

blackandwhite1986 said:
Stonelaughter,

We are actually considering how far we can take this. It would be great to hear if anyone else is thinking the same thing or has indeed done it?

Bravo! I really hope you do go to Court and you have my (unfortunately passive) support if you do. I'm always good for bouncing ideas off, so if you start a thread on it, I'll "bounce" as much as I can!

awebapart.com · Jul 17, 2008

I have also read in the regular game industry journals I receive, that PRS are targeting UK game retail shops. These shops are not playing music directly, but might be playing game demo's which have music in them, music which has already been licensed by the game publisher (but probably licensed for private gaming use, not for playing in shops).

Chris H · Jul 17, 2008

As someone who deals with the copyright issues for my church I've always been sympathetic to the PRS/MCPS regarding royalties but the more I read the more disheartened I get.

Then I saw this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/7364425.stm and the proverbial camel#s back has been broken.

Tim R-T-C · Jul 17, 2008

I hope someone does take them to court - the fact that even playing self-composed and performed music apparently requires a licence is quite absurd and makes a nonsense of their claim to support the composers/performers of the music (they are actually profiting from other people's work in that case). A good court case should sort it out.

It is a pity they are acting so haphazardly, I actually think they make a good point, the composers and performers of the music should be paid a fair amount if their music is used in a store where it benefits the business.

reggiemental · Jul 17, 2008

I wonder if they have radios in the PRS offices. If so, who do they pay their royalty fees to?

Tim R-T-C · Jul 17, 2008

Chris H said:
Then I saw this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/7364425.stm and the proverbial camel#s back has been broken.

What a complete load of

These people are extortionists, nothing more. Any honest organisation would make an exception for charities and not-for-profit groups.

Stonelaughter · Jul 17, 2008

Tim R-T-C said:
I actually think they make a good point, the composers and performers of the music should be paid a fair amount if their music is used in a store where it benefits the business.

That's the point though; if it's played via broadcast media like radio the licence for the broadcast has already been paid. If you play it using a CD player or so on I can see the validity of it; but not radio, TV and so on.

What about disco operators? I'm not aware of disco operators having to pay a licence fee in the past...

ActivSTEP · Jul 18, 2008

now just out of interest (or possibly a way around this...) how does it work with internet radio stations (eg> via itunes). If its fed in from other parts of the world does that change anything?

Tim R-T-C · Jul 18, 2008

ActivSTEP said:
now just out of interest (or possibly a way around this...) how does it work with internet radio stations (eg> via itunes). If its fed in from other parts of the world does that change anything?

Well based on the fact that they go for people who play their own compositions, I doubt this would make much difference to them.

Stonelaughter said:
That's the point though; if it's played via broadcast media like radio the licence for the broadcast has already been paid. If you play it using a CD player or so on I can see the validity of it; but not radio, TV and so on.

Yes, I'd have understood if they targetted CD players since CDs are expressly licensed for home use and you can choose to play non-PRS music (or could if they admitted such things exist). With a radio you have no control over what they play and they have already licenced the music for public performance.

n7 Studios · Jul 18, 2008

Let's not get carried away here.

Europe have stepped in with how royalties are collected, which may make wholesale changes to who a pan-European group would target. And whilst a class action against PRS might work, it's one hell of a battle, which would need some seriously big players behind it.

The PRS have no idea you are playing music in your business. They call on the off chance you'll tell them that you do. If they actually catch you, it could be tricky, but if you've got your wits about you, you enquire as to the phonecall, and then choose whether to answer the questions or leave it at that.

There is a lot of change in the pipeline. At the moment, it's best to sit tight and avoid talking to PRS. What they don't know they can't act on.

Playing royalty free music is not a viable option. In the office, or factory, people like to have music on in the background they vaguely recognize - even if they're not actively listening to it.

Personally, I don't agree with how the royalty collection structure works. It's disjointed, and has too many areas where it goes wrong. Royalties are collected for people who play music - radio stations, for example, as well as shops, games, web sites etc. Let's not forget that the artists make money on top of that by selling the music in the first place.

Incidentally, if you're storing music mechanically i.e. on a jukebox or hard drive system, and playing that music around the office, you'd probably have to pay MCPS, too. Nice, isn't it (not!)

Bottom line - what they don't know, they can't act on.

.Spiralling. · Jul 18, 2008

They can demand you pay a license to play your own composed and performed music? Where is that written? it's outrageous. If you're not a member of PRS and you play your own music, you're not taking royalties from anyone.

I was going to try and persuade (more like prod) Stonelaughter to make a CD of his flute music so we could play that on our stand at shows (and sell it too), but what's the point if you have to pay them for the privilege of playing music you own the rights to?

Tim R-T-C · Jul 18, 2008

n7 Studios said:
Playing royalty free music is not a viable option. In the office, or factory, people like to have music on in the background they vaguely recognize - even if they're not actively listening to it.

What's wrong with a nice bit of classical music?

3pic · Jul 18, 2008

N7's posts makes a lot of sense.

The PRS could only challenege you in court with evidence. The TV license vans 'detect' if a TV is on (and therefore being watched) in order to secure a conviction - although most of that is actually rubbish. The vans break EU laws on infringing people's privacy and so are used more as an image of fear rather than having any actual purpose nowadays - they certainly feature less in the adverts as if they did, it would be a lie.

If the PRS can't prove you have a radio on, then they can ask you for money, but you can politely refuse due to their lack of evidence. Now, the chances of a factory full of workers having a radio is about 100% BUT the PRS still have to PROVE the factory has a radio and that it is used.

Its a bit like those Data Protection scam letters that turn up all the time that say you have to pay £30 to register with the Information Commissioner or else face a fine.....or those invoices that scamsters send to business hoping lax financial controls means someone will just write a cheque out and pay it without actually matching to a purchase order or checking validity.

Having a radio on in reception/front of house therefore is going to get you lined up for a nice license fee, but back office/factory floor should be a safer bet.

From a legal point, I understand that it is illegal to play copyright materials for gain. Whilst you may not be charging workers £10 to listen to the latest Wham album, you are gaining from the motivation they have developed from the nicer working environment and a customer listening to music in reception whilst wating for their tyres to be fitted is also of monetary benefit to a business - I believe that is the logic behind it anyway.

Mattonella Tile Studio · Jul 18, 2008

From memory you still need a licence to pay royalties to the musicians who are playing the actual instruments.

reggiemental · Jul 18, 2008

3pic said:
Whilst you may not be charging workers £10 to listen to the latest Wham album, you are gaining from the motivation they have developed from the nicer working environment and a customer listening to music in reception whilst wating for their tyres to be fitted is also of monetary benefit to a business - I believe that is the logic behind it anyway.

. . . and when the workers have been brainwashed by hearing the same song played every hour, (possibly because a record company A & R man has backhanded a pal at the radio station), and then go out and buy the tune, then you could argue that it's the writer/performer/record label who ultimately gets the most gain out of this arrangement. Hard cash.

reggiemental · Jul 18, 2008

Mattonella Tile Studio said:
From memory you still need a licence to pay royalties to the musicians who are playing the actual instruments.

I don't think so. They usually get paid on a session-by-session basis.

Mattonella Tile Studio · Jul 18, 2008

reggiemental said:
I don't think so. They usually get paid on a session-by-session basis.

www.ppluk.com. If you've perfomed on a track that is played in public you can receive airplay royalties. PPL pays this.

Stu Wright · Jul 18, 2008

I know of several people who have had problems with PRS and we have also recieved letters trying to get us to obtain a license. A client from a friend's health & safety consultancy were told that their premises was going to be inspected, without them even saying they were playing music at all. After quite a few phone calls stating they had no rights to check property and requesting written proof of evidence, they eventually gave up.
It is a good idea to ask PRS for written facts of why they are targeting your company and tell them where to go once they cannot produce any.

reggiemental · Jul 18, 2008

Mattonella Tile Studio said:
www.ppluk.com. If you've perfomed on a track that is played in public you can receive airplay royalties. PPL pays this.

Rules must have changed, as I remember back in the old Tom Jones, Engelbert days how the musicians used to get peanuts, (a session fee), for playing on million-seller records. I stand corrected.

ActivSTEP · Jul 18, 2008

does the tps (telephone preference service) exclude this type of contact that way they cant contact you by phone - as i understand it they would be breaking the law if they did this...i could be wrong (probably!)

Tim R-T-C · Jul 18, 2008

Mattonella Tile Studio said:
From memory you still need a licence to pay royalties to the musicians who are playing the actual instruments.

Not if they have surrendered their rights to the tracks: http://www.musopen.com/about.html

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