Teacher in Mohammed Teddybear situation

Scott-Copywriter · Nov 29, 2007

It's times like this I have no surprise why there's so much trouble in the East related to Religion when the West has next to none in comparison. Any country which lashes or jails a foreign woman trying to HELP them when a child names a piece of cloth the same name as an Islamic Prophet is just destined to remain in the dark ages for many decades to come.

LisaHoughton · Nov 29, 2007

I KNOW! I'm totally shocked ....

dave_n · Nov 29, 2007

and we are gonna give em 140million quid in aid next year for the privilege!!!!
hey but you have to remember that this is not the true face of islam.....that's why there are loads of moderate muslims protesting outside the sudanese embassy in london...NOT!!!!!

Dany Boy · Nov 29, 2007

Islamic countries have a lot of laws which will not be suitable to any other country. I know you are talking about Miss. Gibbons and the trouble she is facing and Steve has also pointed this out answering to a post earlier. Even the British High commission in the respective country can do nothing about this, its very difficult as they are adament about such things. There was another case where in they had a srilankan girl hanged to death in the far east even after the srilankan govt interfered in the issue. The human rights commission failed against the isalamic countries....

I don't know who can put an end to all this...

dave_n · Nov 29, 2007

Dany Boy said:
Islamic countries have a lot of laws which will not be suitable to any other country. I know you are talking about Miss. Gibbons and the trouble she is facing and Steve has also pointed this out answering to a post earlier. Even the British High commission in the respective country can do nothing about this, its very difficult as they are adament about such things. There was another case where in they had a srilankan girl hanged to death in the far east even after the srilankan govt interfered in the issue. The human rights commission failed against the isalamic countries....

I don't know who can put an end to all this...

a guy called oppenheimer had a pretty good solution as I remember!!!!

Faith28 · Nov 29, 2007

dave_n said:
and we are gonna give em 140million quid in aid next year for the privilege!!!!
hey but you have to remember that this is not the true face of islam.....that's why there are loads of moderate muslims protesting outside the sudanese embassy in london...NOT!!!!!

This is in the name of humanity to protest. Irrelevant where we are from. The sudanese government kill their own people in great numbers and no muslim or otherwise does anything about it. This whole saga is a disgusting situation and i hope pressure is put on this backward regime to get her out of there. They'll not have many helpers in the future unfortunately for thier people. Such sort sightedness and idiocy mentality.

I've protested in various organisations and find that muslims are generally likely to attack other muslims who speak out against muslim governments but are happy to attack other governments willingly. It's all hypocrisy. I'm a muslim and fed with being put down from both sides of people...those lethargic muslims who do nothing except protest and complain about issues they have very little knowledge about and then others who just judge me for being a muslim like the above comment.

dave_n · Nov 29, 2007

I say it as I see it I'm afraid....like I said - I see no moderate muslims outside the sudanese embassy protesting about this. I do however see instances of muslims with placards in london saying death to the west etc.
I don't judge anyone...but I make my comments based upon what I see.

Faith28 · Nov 29, 2007

dave_n said:
I say it as I see it I'm afraid....like I said - I see no moderate muslims outside the sudanese embassy protesting about this. I do however see instances of muslims with placards in london saying death to the west etc.
I don't judge anyone...but I make my comments based upon what I see.

Who else don't you see outside the sudanese embassy?

dave_n · Nov 29, 2007

if muslims in this country do not want to be 'judged' as extremists then it may be a good idea to actually come out and show their solidarity against this teachers treatment.
I'm not looking for anyone else who should be outside the embassy!

Faith28 · Nov 29, 2007

dave_n said:
if muslims in this country do not want to be 'judged' as extremists then it may be a good idea to actually come out and show their solidarity against this teachers treatment.
I'm not looking for anyone else who should be outside the embassy!

So basically you are saying i am an extremist for not standing outside the Sudanese embassy?

dave_n · Nov 29, 2007

wow.....wrong end of the stick comes to mind!!!!!
I am merely saying that this is a great opportunity for the muslim community to condemn this action and improve their reputation...which is not a very good one at the moment.
I guess if you think my sentiments are lost you should take a look here http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thr...=3873&edition=1&ttl=20071129213051&#paginator

Faith28 · Nov 29, 2007

Can I just say that if I spent the time to protest over every single issue that corrupt muslim governments puke on their society then my business would suffer! Not to mention the fact that it would be extremely hard for a heavily pregnant woman to stand outside in the cold just to appease the narrow minded people who judge with no reflection on reality to the situation.

I would agree that muslims in this country do not nearly enough as they should to condemn worldwide atrocity. The majority of them are not interested as they are busy with their own lives and feel more british and therefore do as much as the general british public do. There are those who shout against others and not muslims corruption..these are the hypocrites who seem to be the 'spokespeople' for the rest of us!

In any case..this issue is a humanitarian issue and not a religious one. Though some seem to agree with the sudanes authorities that it is a religious issue..it isn't. There's no blasphemy..just backward wallies who have nothing better to do.

Cornish Steve · Nov 29, 2007

A few thoughts to elaborate on what I wrote in another thread about this matter:

- This lady deserves an MBE. She gave up a comfortable existence to help young children in a struggling country. She volunteered, she went, and she helped. In every sense, she's a winner, a hero, and someone to admire. Seriously, I hope Britain rewards her for her self-sacrifice and genuine concern for others.

- The religious 'authorities' in Sudan are trumped-up bigots. They don't represent Islam, and they must embarrass a majority of peace-loving Muslims around the world. They refer to Ms. Gibbons as part of a Western plot, which is utter rot. Let's not judge Islam by the actions of these arrogant wanna-bes.

- I really hope this incident does not put people off helping the disadvantaged in the world because education is so important. The cruelty exhibited by the Sudanese leaders can exist only when the population is kept illiterate and uneducated. I'm sure that the vast majority of people living in difficult circumstances appreciate all the help they can get.

dave_n · Nov 29, 2007

goldctrsteve said:
- I really hope this incident does not put people off helping the disadvantaged in the world because education is so important. The cruelty exhibited by the Sudanese leaders can exist only when the populace are kept illiterate and uneducated. Plus, I'm sure that the vast majority of people living in difficult circumstances appreciate all the help they can get.

steve...unfortunately I think it will...many of the forums I go on are already saying drop the aid etc etc

such a shame as ultimately the children will suffer

Faith28 · Nov 29, 2007

dave_n said:
wow.....wrong end of the stick comes to mind!!!!!
I am merely saying that this is a great opportunity for the muslim community to condemn this action and improve their reputation...which is not a very good one at the moment.
I guess if you think my sentiments are lost you should take a look here http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thr...=3873&edition=1&ttl=20071129213051&#paginator

I don't doubt that some people do not view the muslims in good light. But i'm saying that those of us who protest are facing a double wammy because we get nonsense thrown at us from our own so called muslim community and then we have judgements like yours who say that we don't spend enough time doing something about it.

The MCB (Muslim Council of Britain) - for what it's worth - have condemned it and support the teacher
http://www.politics.co.uk/issueoftheday/opinion-former-index/foreign-policy/muslim-council-deplores-arrest-$482305$482290.htm

dave_n · Nov 29, 2007

Faith28 said:
There are those who shout against others and not muslims corruption..these are the hypocrites who seem to be the 'spokespeople' for the rest of us!

my point exactly!!!!...the perfect opportunity to turn people perceptions around....hey I think we can agree to disagree on this one.
I have very strong views on this but i don't want to argue with a fellow forum member

RayB · Nov 29, 2007

I was trying to think of a way to construct a balanced, worthwhile post to this thread, then Steve popped up with this gem. It says all I wanted to say, plus a whole lot more. And it all makes sense to me.

Also, the government and the mainstream Muslim groups in the UK should be going the extra mile to sort this out

goldctrsteve said:
A few thoughts to elaborate on what I wrote in another thread about this matter:

- This lady deserves an MBE. She gave up a comfortable existence to help young children in a struggling country. She volunteered, she went, and she helped. In every sense, she's a winner, a hero, and someone to admire. Seriously, I hope Britain rewards her for her self-sacrifice and genuine concern for others.

- The religious 'authorities' in Sudan are trumped-up bigots. They don't represent Islam, and they must embarrass a majority of peace-loving Muslims around the world. They refer to Ms. Gibbons as part of a Western plot, which is utter rot. Let's not judge Islam by the actions of these arrogant wanna-bes.

- I really hope this incident does not put people off helping the disadvantaged in the world because education is so important. The cruelty exhibited by the Sudanese leaders can exist only when the populace are kept illiterate and uneducated. Plus, I'm sure that the vast majority of people living in difficult circumstances appreciate all the help they can get.

Cornish Steve · Nov 29, 2007

It's the sign of a true hero when they're willing to go despite popular opinion at home. Logic says let the Sudanese stew in their own pot. Love says let me help the Sudanese children, the hope for the future, and sacrifice my own comfort to achieve that. It defies logic, but it's the breeding ground of heroes.

Faith28 · Nov 29, 2007

goldctrsteve said:
A few thoughts to elaborate on what I wrote in another thread about this matter:

- This lady deserves an OBE. She gave up a comfortable existence to help young children in a struggling country. She volunteered, she went, and she helped. In every sense, she's a winner, a hero, and someone to admire. Seriously, I hope Britain rewards her for her self-sacrifice and genuine concern for others.

- The religious 'authorities' in Sudan are trumped-up bigots. They don't represent Islam, and they must embarrass a majority of peace-loving Muslims around the world. They refer to Ms. Gibbons as part of a Western plot, which is utter rot. Let's not judge Islam by the actions of these arrogant wanna-bes.

- I really hope this incident does not put people off helping the disadvantaged in the world because education is so important. The cruelty exhibited by the Sudanese leaders can exist only when the population is kept illiterate and uneducated. I'm sure that the vast majority of people living in difficult circumstances appreciate all the help they can get.

I agree with your sentiments. I've been chatting to some muslims and their attitude stinks. I'm fed up with their backward mentality and the same time there are others who are horrified just the same as everyone else.

The paranoia amongst some communities is shocking...everything is 'us and them'. They don't see that we are all on the same planet...one race.

Faith28 · Nov 29, 2007

dave_n said:
my point exactly!!!!...the perfect opportunity to turn people perceptions around....hey I think we can agree to disagree on this one.
I have very strong views on this but i don't want to argue with a fellow forum member

But that's my point we do speak up..but the readers of the Sun and Daily Mail don't hear about it because it's not sensational enough for them.

dave_n · Nov 29, 2007

Faith28 said:
But that's my point we do speak up..but the readers of the Sun and Daily Mail don't hear about it because it's not sensational enough for them.

lol....I must have missed it!

cjd · Nov 29, 2007

goldctrsteve said:
- The religious 'authorities' in Sudan are trumped-up bigots. They don't represent Islam, and they must embarrass a majority of peace-loving Muslims around the world. They refer to Ms. Gibbons as part of a Western plot, which is utter rot. Let's not judge Islam by the actions of these arrogant wanna-bes.

Unfortunately you are wrong.

The Islamic courts are simply practicing what their religion preaches. They have been heavily leaned on by their politicians so that the judgement was the lesser one of 'insulting religion'. Had she been found guilty of 'insulting the prophet', she would have been publically flogged.

They are merely following their bible's teachings and it was the same in the UK up til about 200 years ago. The Abrahamic religions (jews, christians, muslims) all have the same punishments for blasphemy and following false gods; it's simply that the muslim world still actually believes it.

Read your bible Steve, it's all there - it's just that modern christians have progressed (or in your terms, put it in 'context') whilst the Islamic world are still following the Word of God as it was interpeted in the 16th century.

As I said elswhere, I have renamed my toilet in support. It now bears the name of a now famous teddy bear.

Faith28 · Nov 29, 2007

cjd said:
Unfortunately you are wrong.

The Islamic courts are simply practicing what their religion preaches. They have been heavily leaned on by their politicians so that the judgement was the lesser one of 'insulting religion'. Had she been found guilty of 'insulting the prophet', she would have been publically flogged.

They are merely following their bible's teachings and it was the same in the UK up til about 200 years ago. The Abrahamic religions (jews, christians, muslims) all have the same punishments for blasphemy and following false gods; it's simply that the muslim world still actually believes it.

Read your bible Steve, it's all there - it's just that modern christians have progressed (or in your terms, put it in 'context') whilst the Islamic world are still following the Word of God as it was interpeted in the 16th century.

As I said elswhere, I have renamed my toilet in support. It now bears the name of a now famous teddy bear.

Lovely...

But I would say these guys are anything but following their religion. I don't want to go into the religious wrongs of what they did and how it conflicts with islam but the point is from a humanitarian perspective they are backward. Regardless of religion.

Chris H · Nov 29, 2007

Only a matter of time.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270192422059

cjd, you must be confused. Muslims don't have the Bible, they have the Koran. Thought you would have known that.

Alice3537 · Nov 29, 2007

I have heard a few comments from the UK based Muslim community on this issue. I have clients in Leicester where there is a large Muslim contingent. Most (all that I have spoken to, although they tend to be more 'westernised') do not agree with the actions taken. I have heard a couple of interviews with those representing Muslim communities over here condemning the actions taken. My opinion is that this is far more entrenched in politics than religion.

Cornish Steve · Nov 29, 2007

cjd said:
They are merely following their bible's teachings and it was the same in the UK up til about 200 years ago. The Abrahamic religions (jews, christians, muslims) all have the same punishments for blasphemy and following false gods; it's simply that the muslim world still actually believes it.

Read your bible Steve, it's all there - it's just that modern christians have progressed (or in your terms, put it in 'context') whilst the Islamic world are still following the Word of God as it was interpeted in the 16th century.

Sorry, but you know that I disagree with you.

History is replete with power-grabbers who hijack an ideology for their own personal gain - whether popes from the past, atheists such as Stalin and Mao, or these leaders in Sudan. They don't care about any faith; they only care about their own egos and power. It's not a question of religious faith; it's a matter of flawed human nature.

cjd · Nov 29, 2007

Chris H said:
cjd, you must be confused. Muslims don't have the Bible, they have the Koran. Thought you would have known that.

Do'h. Of course I know that - I said 'their bible' not THE Bible.

Spiderden · Nov 29, 2007

Faith28 said:
I would agree that muslims in this country do not nearly enough as they should to condemn worldwide atrocity.

When caricatures of the profit Mohamed were printed in a Danish newspaper, there were protests and effigy burning around the World from Muslim groups, yet when an Irish woman is butchered and has a recording of her horrendous death posted on the internet, where were the protesters then? It would hugely benefit the image of Islam if more Muslims were outspoken about the atrocities supposedly carried out in the name of their religion. Surely using Islam as an excuse to butcher an innocent person is a greater insult to the name of Mohamed than pictures in a newspaper or a teddy bear could ever be?

Lets not forget that this sort of attitude isn't limited to Islamic fundamentalists, the Christians have more than their fare share of fanatics too, as is clearly demonstrated on this site landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=5602. If you think the first few pages are bad, read deeper into the thread then you will see just how racist and full of hate they are. They hate everything from Catholics to people who listen to "devil music".

dave_n · Nov 29, 2007

Chris H said:
Only a matter of time.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270192422059

cjd, you must be confused. Muslims don't have the Bible, they have the Koran. Thought you would have known that.

lol....quality

Scott-Copywriter · Nov 29, 2007

There was a seminar at the Ted Talks a few years ago about countries and development. It showed that on most issues many second/third world countries were developing at a similar rate as most Western countries, just 100-200 years behind.

Following the trends in the graphs showed that many second/third world countries would eventually end up in the same social and financial status as many developed countries are at now, whilst the first world nations would have progressed significantly further, but at the same rate.

Interesting theory.

Cornish Steve · Nov 29, 2007

Scott-SCD said:
the Ted Talks

Rather ironic.

cjd · Nov 29, 2007

goldctrsteve said:
Sorry, but you know that I disagree with you. History is replete with power-grabbers who hijack an ideology for their own personal gain - whether popes from the past, atheists such as Stalin and Mao, or these leaders in Sudan. They don't care about any faith; they only care about their own egos and power. It's not a question of religious faith; it's a matter of flawed human nature.

Give over.

It is ONLY a matter of religion. It is enshrined in their law as it was and still is in many western democracies (blasphemy is still on the statue book here in the UK). It was the reason for the seperation of church and state in the US - but you know all this.

In the Western world the power and influence of religion has declined but it is a very reecent thing. It's nice to think that it's only a few power mad mullahs doing these rediculous things but that is a big mistake.

Most Muslims (even a decent proportion in the UK, let alone in the mud huts of remote desert villages) want and believe in Sharia law. They literally believe it right to stone adulterers and the ONLY reason they believe it to be right is because their book tells them that.

As does yours. You've just progressed a little, that's all.

Monty Python says it better - give yourself a laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_hlMK7tCks

RayB · Nov 29, 2007

Ok, I would prefer that this thread did not descend into a bun fight

Put the ideology, religion and politics to one side for a minute...

Does anyone think giving a name to a teddy bear is a flogging offence....

...at best very extreme :|

Scott-Copywriter · Nov 29, 2007

goldctrsteve said:
Rather ironic.

What's ironic about it Steve?

Cornish Steve · Nov 29, 2007

cjd said:
It is ONLY a matter of religion.

We've been through this before. Of the 20 incidents involving the largest loss of life in the history of the world, not one of them was to do with a religious faith (other than incidentally). WW-I was the pride of the Kaiser; WW-II was the pride and personal ambition of Hitler; Stalin killed millions (via an atheistic philosophy); Mao killed millions (via an atheistic philosophy). It goes on and on. Sadly, human nature is flawed, and it will latch on to anyone and anything that serves its purpose. These trumped-up clerics in Sudan have hijacked Islam to serve their selfish ambitions. History proves this principle time and again.

cjd · Nov 29, 2007

RayB said:
Put the ideology, religion and politics to one side for a minute...

umm, you mean talk about the Liverpool game last night?

Jayne · Nov 29, 2007

Preserving life and being good to one another should be the center of any religion in my eyes, it shouldn't matter which one. I think the teddy bear thing is terrible and barbaric, but I read a thread on webcameron where a woman was gang raped for riding in a car, with a man who wasn't related. She reported this to the police, so she was sent to prison for telling on the men for raping her and given 200 lashes. Now what sort of God figure would OK this?

Jayne

Cornish Steve · Nov 29, 2007

Scott-SCD said:
What's ironic about it Steve?

'The Ted Talks' would have been an excellent name for the diary the Sudanese children used to explain the daily exploits of the class bear.

RayB · Nov 29, 2007

cjd said:
umm, you mean talk about the Liverpool game last night?

That might prove to be a less controversial topic for sure

cjd · Nov 29, 2007

Jayne said:
Now what sort of God figure would OK this?

Jayne

Sadly, it is the God of the Christian Bible, the Islamic Koran and the Hebrew Tanakh - all the same God - that apparently not only OKs it, but quite literally demands it.

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