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statutory demand

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geoffb

Free Member
Nov 6, 2008
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we have been chasing a debtor for months, debt collection company has rung repeatidly, and has advised us to send a stat demand.

The debt has already cost us money through legal advice etc - the original debt of £1200 has already gone up to £1470 with interest and late payment charges.

The debt collection agency has written with the costs of issuing the stat demand

they are
drafting fee £195
service fee £75
+ VAT = £310.50

is this the usual price or are they trying to rip me off - I know they will visit in person....
they state that This amount will go on top of the debt taking the debt owed to £1800.

Im worried that if I go ahead with this and they still don't pay i will be even more out of pocket.

the debt is undisputed

any advice ?
 
geoffb said:
The debt collection agency has written with the costs of issuing the stat demand

they are
drafting fee £195
service fee £75
+ VAT = £310.50

is this the usual price or are they trying to rip me off - I know they will visit in person....
they state that This amount will go on top of the debt taking the debt owed to £1800.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit out of date but a statutory demand is basically a standard letter and I used to draft my own and send by recorded delivery. That was 20 years ago.

Rather than pay the rather hefty fee that you have been quoted you could have a look here where they offer to do the hard work for just £75
 
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Now im confused

Everthing that Ive read states that all possible steps must be undertaken to serve it personally

only if this is not possible can it be posted....

is there a difference between sending a stat demand to a member of the public, or a sole trader - are the rules the same ?
 
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basically the rules of service on SD's are that it can be served in the following ways;

45.94 Service of the statutory demand

The creditor is bound to do all that is reasonable to ensure that the demand is brought to the debtor’s attention, including personally serving the statutory demand on the debtor if practicable.

Notes: [r6.3]

45.95 Substituted service

Where it is not possible to effect prompt personal service, service may be effected by other means such as first class post or insertion through a letter box (Practice Direction, 18 December 1986, [1987] 1 All ER 604). For this to be acceptable to the court, the creditor must have taken similar steps to those which would persuade the court to grant an order for substituted service of a petition (paragraph 45.121). In Re A Debtor (Nos 234 & 236 of 1991) The Independent 29 June 1992 it was confirmed by Blackett Ord QC that in some cases it may be appropriate to serve the statutory demand upon the Solicitors of the debtor.


45.96 By advertisement (amended April 2009)

Where the statutory demand is based on a judgement or order and the creditor knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the debtor has absconded or is avoiding service, and there is no real prospect of progressing the debt by enforcement action, he/she may advertise the demand in such manner as he/she thinks fit. The time for compliance runs from the date of the advertisement. The above mentioned Practice Direction of 18 December 1986 specifies the form of such advertisement.

Notes: [r 6.3(3)]
Click to expand...
 
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The creditor is bound to do all that is reasonable to ensure that the demand is brought to the debtor’s attention, including personally serving the statutory demand on the debtor if practicable.
Click to expand...

which tells me that sticking a stat demand in the post isn't doing enough to ensure he receives it.

We sent the letter before action via post, the guy didnt sign for it, didnt collect it from the Post office, and it was returned to us unopened
 
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We would write out the demand for around £50. I usually serve these things by recorded delivery, but can get a process server to do it. Where is the debtor located?
 
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geoffb said:
which tells me that sticking a stat demand in the post isn't doing enough to ensure he receives it.

We sent the letter before action via post, the guy didnt sign for it, didnt collect it from the Post office, and it was returned to us unopened
Click to expand...
the proper way to do it is in 2 visits,

1st visit - attempt to serve personally, if not in don't waste any time, just put a pre-written appointment letter through door for at least 2 days time. Make enquiries with neighbours to ensure that they do live there.

2nd attempt - attend at time and date specified in letter and if not in put serve through door.

RESULT: - Served

Write statement of service and include all visits and attempts to serve.
 
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Apart from the issue of service, assuming service is effected you then have to consider whether you actually want to proceed and make the person bankrupt. The threat may not be enough. Bankruptcy is going to cost more and you have to consider whether it will actually yield anything at the end of the day.

In my many years experience in debt litigation , many debt collection agencies seem to think this is the best option; it may not be. Also, I have come across some agencies recently that served a "demand" which was defective!

Anthony Reeves
Pinniger Finch & Co, Solicitors
 
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Hi
The guy lives in Daventry... so if thats near you yorkshirejames (though by your name i guess not)

well this is why I was questioning the costs if he still doesnt pay after the stat demand then it will be bankruptcy proceedings which are about £500 ......

could we serve the demand personally - is that allowed, it doesnt have to be a process server does it ?
 
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Is the debtor an individual or Ltd Co. If Ltd Co just send recorded to registered office. If individual you will need a process server.

Cost of Petition with solicitors fees to complete it would be c.£1500
 
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geoffb said:
Hi
The guy lives in Daventry... so if thats near you yorkshirejames (though by your name i guess not)

well this is why I was questioning the costs if he still doesnt pay after the stat demand then it will be bankruptcy proceedings which are about £500 ......

could we serve the demand personally - is that allowed, it doesnt have to be a process server does it ?
Click to expand...

I should change my name (can we do this on here?) I actually live between Luton and Hitchin - so yes it probably is.

I'll PM you my contact details. Give me a call and we'll discuss the best way forward here.
 
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Sorry to butt in now at the end ;) but have you actually thought about what you are going to do after the Stat demand has been served? Are you prepared to take it all the way to bankruptcy?!?

A Stat Demand is very easy to get set aside etc and if there is any dispute on the debt then it could even result in an order of costs being issued against you.

Does the debtor have other debts? Is it a can't pay or won't pay? Do they have any assets i.e. property? Would bankruptcy be a bad thing for the debtor? There is not the stigma attached to it that there used to be and if he has other debts and no assets it may be a blessing for him!
 
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Hi Lucy

Thanks for your input - this is the problem,
The debt was for £1200 - that included a rubber cheque for £800 - so the claim is undisputed, now with interest and late payment charges its gone up to £1450

The DCA has been persuing this bloke (sole trader) for 3 months, and from an recent post on this forum, he sounds like a very nasty piece of work - however this is just hearsay.

He has promised numerous times to send the money - but hasnt.
He lives with his girlfriend in a flat / house - she owns the property. So I don't know what assets he has.

The DCA hasn't mentioned any CCJs - so I will contact them to find out.

The problem is I know the problems getting the money from him via the courts, I also know the costs involved in bankruptcy, Im hoping that if the stat demand works - i wont have to go further - but I have a bad feeling that he won't pay - more than can't pay.

He has just put a VAT number on his website, its a valid vat number, but if its registered to him, I don't know.

I know the price of the stat demand being issued can be added to the amount owed, but Im unsure he would settle for the full amount, which would leave me really out of pocket by the time the DCA have taken their wack, and still have to take him to court for the interest owed and fees ive incurred.

As I stated earlier, I just wish he would pay the money, so I can stop worrying about it.
 
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geoffb said:
Hi Lucy

Thanks for your input - this is the problem,
The debt was for £1200 - that included a rubber cheque for £800 - so the claim is undisputed, now with interest and late payment charges its gone up to £1450

The DCA has been persuing this bloke (sole trader) for 3 months, and from an recent post on this forum, he sounds like a very nasty piece of work - however this is just hearsay.

He has promised numerous times to send the money - but hasnt.
He lives with his girlfriend in a flat / house - she owns the property. So I don't know what assets he has.

The DCA hasn't mentioned any CCJs - so I will contact them to find out.

The problem is I know the problems getting the money from him via the courts, I also know the costs involved in bankruptcy, Im hoping that if the stat demand works - i wont have to go further - but I have a bad feeling that he won't pay - more than can't pay.

He has just put a VAT number on his website, its a valid vat number, but if its registered to him, I don't know.

I know the price of the stat demand being issued can be added to the amount owed, but Im unsure he would settle for the full amount, which would leave me really out of pocket by the time the DCA have taken their wack, and still have to take him to court for the interest owed and fees ive incurred.

As I stated earlier, I just wish he would pay the money, so I can stop worrying about it.
Click to expand...

The cost to make him bankrupt yourself without any assistance would be in the region of £700 obviously if you were to get assistance on that matter then it could easily exceed the actual amount of the debt. If the debtor hasn't got any assets (he has no house) then you get nothing other than the satisfaction you have made him bankrupt which if he has other debts may be a blessing for him and he may be waiting for you to do this.

I don't mean to sound negative (and this is our game) but just wanted to give you an other opinion. I hate to see people throwing good money after bad.

A stat demand may be cheap to do BUT think carefully before you use it as if you don't follow through with the bankruptcy the debtor will know you are not serious and is more likely to ignore any other letters.

Also just unclear as to who you refer to as being a "nasty piece of work" is that the DCA or the debtor? Have you have a chat with Steve Thornbury? He may have other options for you - i am just weary that if you issue a Stat Demand and aren't prepared to follow it through you will not be able to look at any other avenues.
 
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Hi
the debtor - 'apparently' is a nasty piece of work - as i said total hear say - never met the man, just spoke on the phone, He is still selling our stock on his website, even though we retain title.

I will find out what other debts he has - if showing - this is all so depressing :(
 
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geoffb said:
Hi
the debtor - 'apparently' is a nasty piece of work - as i said total hear say - never met the man, just spoke on the phone, He is still selling our stock on his website, even though we retain title.

I will find out what other debts he has - if showing - this is all so depressing :(
Click to expand...

If you PM me the name of the trading name and the name of the guy i can have a look for you. On our system certain sole-traders appear so i could see if there are any other CCJs registered.

You mentioned Retention of Title - is this legally binding? (a lot of people say they have it when they haven't used the correct wording etc).
 
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Property and Title
No property or title to goods shall pass from the Company to the customer unless the full amount of the value of the goods as invoiced has been credited to the companies’ bank account without recourse as cleared funds or the Company has received the full amount in cash and the customer shall indemnify the Company against any loss or damage to the goods prior to the passing of the property therein whilst in the customers custody.
Click to expand...

I will pm you the details Lucy - Thank you
 
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geoffb said:
I will pm you the details Lucy - Thank you
Click to expand...

On the invoice do you state any serial numbers etc? Obviously i am talking blind at the moment as don't actually know what you do.......but for example if you sold cars do you state the Reg no on invoice, or computers serial numbers or is it simpy "2 computers"?
 
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Hi Lucy

yes, the debt is made up of 3 invoices (3 lots of stock dispatched over 6 days) each invoice has a specific number

That wording was on the back of each invoice
 
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geoffb said:
Hi Lucy

yes, the debt is made up of 3 invoices (3 lots of stock dispatched over 6 days) each invoice has a specific number

That wording was on the back of each invoice
Click to expand...

Don't think i worded my last post correctly....either that or i have misunderstood your post. Can you distinguish your goods by serial number and do these invoices mention them?
 
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The invoices break down exactly what was sent - no serials

but it shows (example)

4 x scoda
2 x range rover

etc
 
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Serve a statutory demand. Pretty scarey wording on the form may make him pay up. If not, then you can still pursue other options. Small claims. Bailiff etc. Time consuming though.

If you are going down the statutory demand route, make sure you use the correct form. If he is a sole trader, you are looking for the personal one, not the corporate one. And the debt has to be undisputed.

I know one company that uses statutory demands all the time to chase up bad debts. They have always been paid apart from one occasion when the demand was set aside by agreement after the debtor had gone to a solicitor. He paid up shortly afterwards.
 
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That's the right quote so you can see why people try to serve them personally if you read the quote above. You can certainly do it yourself instead of using someone else to although using someone who has done them before usually means it is less likely the rules will not be followed. However they might say there is a defence after all once you serve it - that is always a risk.
 
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geoffb said:
The invoices break down exactly what was sent - no serials

but it shows (example)

4 x scoda
2 x range rover

etc
Click to expand...

This is where the problem lies.......in order for Retention of Title to be correct and able to be acted upon the invoices need to specifically state what goods so that they are unquestionable. Using the example you have given:-

4 x skoda (DX59 OTU, DV59 HGF, FE02 RTG, DV59 PHJ)
2 x Range Rover (FG59 RPM, DV59 RSM)

It may be worth for future just ensuring that these are correct in case you have a problem (yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing!).
 
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Lucyauty said:
This is where the problem lies.......in order for Retention of Title to be correct and able to be acted upon the invoices need to specifically state what goods so that they are unquestionable. Using the example you have given:-

4 x skoda (DX59 OTU, DV59 HGF, FE02 RTG, DV59 PHJ)
2 x Range Rover (FG59 RPM, DV59 RSM)

It may be worth for future just ensuring that these are correct in case you have a problem (yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing!).
Click to expand...

Potentially if the goods were stamped with a batch number or sell-by date this may help you also.
 
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yorkshirejames said:
Potentially if the goods were stamped with a batch number or sell-by date this may help you also.
Click to expand...

Obviously it's difficult as don't know what the OP sells but he needs to have some distinguising factor to place on the invoices.

IMO the Retention of Title cannot be acted upon in this instances as it is not clear enough what the goods were and they could not be differenciated from a goods from a different (paid) invoice.

I am still unsure of the usefulness of a Stat Demand in this case - if the debtor calls his bluff the OP would be doubling the debt just to prove a point which may go in the debtors favour i.e. he has no assets and just wiping his debt out.

I'm not being negative i just hate to see people throwing good money after bad.
 
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Hi all

the invoices do show the exact product and model, we are in a very niche market and the product that the 'sole trader bought' we actually make and have named ourselves, therefore there is no question that the products listed on the invoices can be disputed.

I think I will send the stat demand via a process server if i can find a cheap enough one - or even take it ourselves - its a 4 hour round trip though, as people have said it might scare them enough to actually pay the amount owed, if it doesnt then I guess courts or bankrupcy - neither of which can really guarentee my money :(
 
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geoffb said:
the invoices do show the exact product and model, we are in a very niche market and the product that the 'sole trader bought' we actually make and have named ourselves, therefore there is no question that the products listed on the invoices can be disputed.
Click to expand...

But can you prove that the items he is still selling relate to the outstanding invoices and not a previously paid one? I they bath numbered for example?

Have you tried this angle with the debtor?? Stating you have a Retention of Title and as invoices remain outstanding you require goods to be returned within 7 days? If he ignores then go for court order.

Just another thought.....
 
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Hi Lucy
no - its not something I have thought about.....

He was actually going to bring the goods back as communications fell apart after the bounced cheque, he phone twice to say the goods would be with us by 4pm on a thursday so we waited all evening , and he never arrived - I doubt he ever left in the 1st place, as I said it is a 4-5 hour round trip.
 
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geoffb said:
Hi Lucy
no - its not something I have thought about.....

He was actually going to bring the goods back as communications fell apart after the bounced cheque, he phone twice to say the goods would be with us by 4pm on a thursday so we waited all evening , and he never arrived - I doubt he ever left in the 1st place, as I said it is a 4-5 hour round trip.
Click to expand...

Was this because you mentioned Retention of Title?

Just trying to give you all possible avenues as i am really sceptical about the Stat Demand especially if you aren't prepared to go through with the bankruptcy OR that he stands to gain if you do make him bankrupt (i.e. wipes debt clear and has no assets to lose).
 
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