Working from home. Should businesses pay energy bills?

[Lucan Unlordly]

Talking to a chap the other day who was once again told to work from home at the tail of end last year. His - always empty during the day - 4 bed house takes some considerable heating and with current concerns that in the coming weeks we'll all be burning the recycling to keep warm or face hefty bills, he's contemplating asking his employer to contribute to his energy costs!

 

[sherryliu]

me too

 

[intheTRADE]

I know a lot of companies are contributing a WFH payment. Normally added to their annual salary to cover energy, broadband etc

The CQC for instance added £1000 to everyone's annual salary who took them up the option of permanently working from

I suspect an awful lot of employers haven't yet and ad hoc working from home would no doubt cause a logistical nightmare trying to work out contributions

 

[IanSuth]

Pointless - i mean what were his commuting costs which he is now saving, what about his lunch bill (how does a sandwich made in his kitchen compare with Pret)

In general the amount saved on going to the office is more than compensatory for the extra energy costs.

But his employer does need to ensure his workplace H&S is still covered as his workplace is now at least partly his home, so desk, chair, lighting etc all covered also smoke alarm. So you "might" i suppose be able to try and claim that heating a minimum level is a H&S requirement but i doubt many peoples homes drop below that level anyway.

He does not need to heat the whole house all day just his office and if his house is that expensive to heat he needs to sort it anyway - I mean I have a 4/5 bed house built 1968, it is not even fully double glazed but does have a reasonable modern gas boiler and I have a duel fuel DD of £132 per month covering the fixed deal i took out the weekend rates when silly (I don't consider c£1500 a year for all energy silly)

 

[intheTRADE]

Pointless - i mean what were his commuting costs which he is now saving, what about his lunch bill (how does a sandwich made in his kitchen compare with Pret)

In general the amount saved on going to the office is more than compensatory for the extra energy costs.

If they did indeed have commuting costs. They may have (as millions do) walked to work along with his kitchen made sandwich

Not every one is financially better off working from home and I suspect an awful lot of people will be worse off with rising energy costs from home working

 

[IanSuth]

If they did indeed have commuting costs. They may have (as millions do) walked to work along with his kitchen made sandwich

Not every one is financially better off working from home and I suspect an awful lot of people will be worse off with rising energy costs from home working

Realistically what are the increased energy costs working from home - and remember you can claim some of them back vs your tax even on PAYE

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

I mean I have a 4/5 bed house built 1968, it is not even fully double glazed but does have a reasonable modern gas boiler and I have a duel fuel DD of £132 per month

I have a modest 3 bed flat and pay more than that a month!

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I have a modest 3 bed flat and pay more than that a month!

We pay around £300 a month on energy and that's with a super efficient boiler and a wood burner!

Many are not aware that they can actually claim an allowance for working from home for this very reason.

 

[Nyx004]

i don't think that energy cost should be payed by the company, if there is really particular reason of it, it depends on different issues, but generally , it's not rasonable.

 

[IanSuth]

How hot do you lot keep your home !!! And do you leave your lights n all day

I grew up in a 1927 semi which only had cavity walls ot 3 foot above ground level had metal framed windows etc and had a dad obsessed with saving money on the 70's oil crisis, so spent several years helping him fit storage heaters and then a hot air system (people were getting them ripped out), and we had an old furnacite fuled aga so maybe I am used a cooler temp but I set our single thermostat at the bottom of our stairs by front door to 17 degrees and that leaves the lounge on about 19 and the house is pleasant all day. Likewise my wife grew up on the edge of Dartmoor in a hundreds of years old granite built house with no central heating. Nobody needs bedroom heated to 20 or sitting rooms to 25

(And before we get on to living in cardboard boxes - when i was at boarding school in the 80's our 26 person dormitories had been designed and built by victorians and were nealry 50% window with no curtains and minimal heating so we could wake to find ice on bedside cups of water.)

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Pointless - i mean what were his commuting costs which he is now saving, what about his lunch bill (how does a sandwich made in his kitchen compare with Pret)

In general the amount saved on going to the office is more than compensatory for the extra energy costs.

But his employer does need to ensure his workplace H&S is still covered as his workplace is now at least partly his home, so desk, chair, lighting etc all covered also smoke alarm. So you "might" i suppose be able to try and claim that heating a minimum level is a H&S requirement but i doubt many peoples homes drop below that level anyway.

He does not need to heat the whole house all day just his office and if his house is that expensive to heat he needs to sort it anyway - I mean I have a 4/5 bed house built 1968, it is not even fully double glazed but does have a reasonable modern gas boiler and I have a duel fuel DD of £132 per month covering the fixed deal i took out the weekend rates when silly (I don't consider c£1500 a year for all energy silly)

Of course there will be huge variations dependent on personal circumstances. He saves on petrol costs, takes his own sandwich to work, but energy prices are the scare story of the day and will have an impact. On a broader note, if one wants to simply compare savings made against costs incurred, perhaps a charge for my services converting the bedroom to an office and back again so my wife can work from home, could be set against the companies savings for their own energy costs and reduced wear and tear on the office carpet.

 

[IanSuth]

Of course there will be huge variations dependent on personal circumstances. He saves on petrol costs, takes his own sandwich to work, but energy prices are the scare story of the day and will have an impact. On a broader note, if one wants to simply compare savings made against costs incurred, perhaps a charge for my services converting the bedroom to an office and back again so my wife can work from home, could be set against the companies savings for their own energy costs and reduced wear and tear on the office carpet.

At least some of the conversion costs can be claimed as allowable business expenses but that is against her tax liability not the company doing the conversion so the company saving is irrelevant - many companies have however downsized offices to save money. During lockdown my wives firm had to other group companies whose leases expired so not those companies have moved into the same office as hers, with wfh they can hot desk on the days they are in. Nobody has been given a pay rise but the company has saved 2 sets of rent and she will only have to go to into the office 1 to 3 days a week (bit up in air at present)

A lot of the savings will take a while to materialise as obviously if you both have a car to commute it is a sunk cost to an extent but you might leave replacing one of them longer or not do it at all if it becomes rare you are both commuting on the same day - it will also change the housing market I am sure

 

[Newchodge]

At least some of the conversion costs can be claimed as allowable business expenses but that is against her tax liability not the company doing the conversion so the company saving is irrelevant - many companies have however downsized offices to save money. During lockdown my wives firm had to other group companies whose leases expired so not those companies have moved into the same office as hers, with wfh they can hot desk on the days they are in. Nobody has been given a pay rise but the company has saved 2 sets of rent and she will only have to go to into the office 1 to 3 days a week (bit up in air at present)

A lot of the savings will take a while to materialise as obviously if you both have a car to commute it is a sunk cost to an extent but you might leave replacing one of them longer or not do it at all if it becomes rare you are both commuting on the same day - it will also change the housing market I am sure

If she is an employee how can she calim conversion costs as allowable business expenses?

 

[IanSuth]

If she is an employee how can she calim conversion costs as allowable business expenses?

As an employee you can still claim some of those costs via PAYE - I have heard it being claimed as a tool of the trade ot have desk/home office furniture - then the energy cost increase is done under this part

Claim tax relief for your job expenses

Claiming tax relief on expenses you have to pay for your work, like uniforms, tools, travel and working from home costs.

www.gov.uk

Working from home​

You may be able to claim tax relief for additional household costs if you have to work at home on a regular basis, either for all or part of the week. This includes if you have to work from home because of coronavirus (COVID-19).
You cannot claim tax relief if you choose to work from home.
You may be able to claim tax relief for:

• gas and electricity
• metered water
• business phone calls, including dial-up internet access

You cannot claim for the whole bill, just the part that relates to your work.

How much you can claim​

You can either claim tax relief on:

• £6 a week from 6 April 2020 (for previous tax years the rate is £4 a week) - you will not need to keep evidence of your extra costs
• the exact amount of extra costs you’ve incurred above the weekly amount - you’ll need evidence such as receipts, bills or contracts

You’ll get tax relief based on the rate at which you pay tax. For example, if you pay the 20% basic rate of tax and claim tax relief on £6 a week you would get £1.20 per week in tax relief (20% of £6).


Desks/PC's under this bit

Buying other equipment​

In most cases you can claim tax relief on the full cost of substantial equipment, for example a computer, you have to buy to do your work. This is because it qualifies for a type of capital allowance called annual investment allowance.
You cannot claim capital allowances for cars, motorcycles or bicycles you use for work, but you may be able to claim for business mileage and fuel costs.
You claim in a different way for small items that’ll last less than 2 years, such as uniforms and tools.
You can only claim tax relief for equipment expenses if:

• you need it to do your job
• you use the equipment for work and there’s no significant private use - this includes using the equipment according to your organisation’s policy

If your employer gives you money for the item​

Reduce the amount you claim tax relief on by the amount of money your employer gives you.

 

[NickGrogan]

How hot do you lot keep your home !!! And do you leave your lights n all day

I grew up in a 1927 semi which only had cavity walls ot 3 foot above ground level had metal framed windows etc and had a dad obsessed with saving money on the 70's oil crisis, so spent several years helping him fit storage heaters and then a hot air system (people were getting them ripped out), and we had an old furnacite fuled aga so maybe I am used a cooler temp but I set our single thermostat at the bottom of our stairs by front door to 17 degrees and that leaves the lounge on about 19 and the house is pleasant all day. Likewise my wife grew up on the edge of Dartmoor in a hundreds of years old granite built house with no central heating. Nobody needs bedroom heated to 20 or sitting rooms to 25

(And before we get on to living in cardboard boxes - when i was at boarding school in the 80's our 26 person dormitories had been designed and built by victorians and were nealry 50% window with no curtains and minimal heating so we could wake to find ice on bedside cups of water.)

My thermostat is on 28 at the moment, but I don't think it's that accurate.

It goes above 30 when it gets proper cold.

 

[simon field]

Is there a reason why the chap can’t just pop a jumper on?

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Is there a reason why the chap can’t just pop a jumper on?

would he do that in the office?

The regulations regarding employee welfare don't end when the employee works from home.

I am waiting for the ambulance chasers to start making claims for back pain and the like due to the employer not ensuring the workplace was suitable.

 

[simon field]

would he do that in the office?

I have no way of knowing. All I know is that if I felt cold, I’d wear warmer clothes!

The regulations regarding employee welfare don't end when the employee works from home.

I’m sure they don’t. However, it’s not difficult to heat one room in isolation ?

I am waiting for the ambulance chasers to start making claims for back pain and the like due to the employer not ensuring the workplace was suitable.

Yep! Where possible, they really need to get a life.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Is there a reason why the chap can’t just pop a jumper on?

Yes, he's the Naturist who gave 'Carry on Camping' 10/10 on IMDB

Warming one room in the house is impractical I guess. Kitchen, toilet, dining room, all in use when working from home.

 

[Financial-Modeller]

Went through this extensively with a client during lockdown.

In addition to many good points already made, remember that whilst some employers will have been able to break leases, sublet space etc, most are still incurring the same (significant) costs to rent, insure, heat, illuminate, and maintain the same amount of space, for a reduced number of staff, who are spaced more widely apart.

My view is that most staff will spend less WfH than working from offices once commuting, parking, travelcards etc are considered, but most employers are not saving much.

The critical point is whether employees choose to work during their commuting time to get more done in the day - and should be compensated for doing so, or choose to do the same amount of work or less from home and so should not.

At that time, we did everything we could to get everyone working safely, issued kit and authorised expenses claims so staff could get their own, but postponed a decision on repayment of bills.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Went through this extensively with a client during lockdown.
----SNIP

At that time, we did everything we could to get everyone working safely, issued kit and authorised expenses claims so staff could get their own, but postponed a decision on repayment of bills.

I agree, and any sensible employer will make some kind of adjustment for those WFH, however the larger the employer, the harder it is.

 

[simon field]

I agree, and any sensible employer will make some kind of adjustment for those WFH, however the larger the employer, the harder it is.

What about if the employee is saving time & money?

 

[DontAsk]

What about if the employee is saving time & money?

Their own or the business? Pay cut or pay rise I say.

 

[simon field]

Their own or the business? Pay cut or pay rise I say.

Let’s take a guess that for *most* people, working from home saves them money, and more importantly, time. Should they really bleat about a couple of quid to heat a small home space, when they really could just pop a jumper on?

If there’s a real expense claim, then it should of course be paid.

 

[Mr D]

Talking to a chap the other day who was once again told to work from home at the tail of end last year. His - always empty during the day - 4 bed house takes some considerable heating and with current concerns that in the coming weeks we'll all be burning the recycling to keep warm or face hefty bills, he's contemplating asking his employer to contribute to his energy costs!

He's working from one room, heat that room.
Whatever he has going on for the other rooms when he's out at work can continue.

WFH doesn't mean the entire house needs heating during the day more than it does normally when at work. Except where multiple rooms must be used.

A simple IR heater by a desk can work when just in one room.
Pennies to run.

 

[Mr D]

My thermostat is on 28 at the moment, but I don't think it's that accurate.

It goes above 30 when it gets proper cold.

Mine is on 28 most of the time. As you say, gets cold it goes up, 30 is a common cold level, have had it at 32 a couple of times when really cold.
Nice and warm in the house, never gets below 24 here.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

WFH doesn't mean the entire house needs heating during the day more than it does normally when at work. Except where multiple rooms must be used.

I get your point but I think it unreasonable to expect somebody to work from home and be cooped up in a small box room for 8 hours a day and some movement from kitchen, dining room, toilet - if only to stretch one's legs is to be expected., The heating situation - who pays for the IR Heater - rarely compares. We use bottled gas and oil filled radiators in the unit, one warms up quickly and drags every morsel of air from the room, the other is only useful if you want to set a timer or can wait for it do do it's stuff.

PS: 28 on the thermostat!! 21 maximum for us, and the women of the house only complain about 5 times a week

 

[Mr D]

I get your point but I think it unreasonable to expect somebody to work from home and be cooped up in a small box room for 8 hours a day and some movement from kitchen, dining room, toilet - if only to stretch one's legs is to be expected., The heating situation - who pays for the IR Heater - rarely compares. We use bottled gas and oil filled radiators in the unit, one warms up quickly and drags every morsel of air from the room, the other is only useful if you want to set a timer or can wait for it do do it's stuff.

PS: 28 on the thermostat!! 21 maximum for us, and the women of the house only complain about 5 times a week

Then the person can choose to heat other rooms. Is it reasonable to expect the employer to pay towards the heating of the rest of the house?

I could not manage on 21C for heating, bad enough handling it all day at the office (probably 19 there even) could not handle it at home too.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

No way
Very few companies pay for travel to and from work and the employee is saving on this cost more than electricity and gas
They will be claiming for a butler next !

 

[IanSuth]

Mine is on 28 most of the time. As you say, gets cold it goes up, 30 is a common cold level, have had it at 32 a couple of times when really cold.
Nice and warm in the house, never gets below 24 here.

I literally could not function at 24 let alone higher - i would be asleep. I am the person who enters a hot office and opens a window

My wife was chastised by nursing staff for trying to do that in the maternity ward (they are locked shut)

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Is there a reason why the chap can’t just pop a jumper on?

Funny that. When I had my business I was always trying to keep my workers warm. When I retired and the workers took it over and had to pay the bills themselves they suddenly found layers of jumpers to wear.

 

[simon field]

I literally could not function at 24 let alone higher - i would be asleep. I am the person who enters a hot office and opens a window

My wife was chastised by nursing staff for trying to do that in the maternity ward (they are locked shut)

What about ventilation, ie ‘Control the Virus’, or is that not applicable in a hospital setting?

 

[IanSuth]

What about ventilation, ie ‘Control the Virus’, or is that not applicable in a hospital setting?

This was 14 yrs ago so no idea now but they had done it to stop draughts and smokers trying to have a fag out the window

 

[Mr D]

I literally could not function at 24 let alone higher - i would be asleep. I am the person who enters a hot office and opens a window

My wife was chastised by nursing staff for trying to do that in the maternity ward (they are locked shut)

I'd be the person in the office shutting the window. Or - when I worked with a pregnant lady who demanded the window remain open, I moved to the far side of the office from the team. Much to the annoyance of the manager.
I won't risk the health of a pregnant woman, I also don't risk my own health.