Why do shops do this?

Faith28

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I go into a newsagent, say, and the shop owner give me the cost of my purchases...I hand over a note or something that requires change and instead of typing in the exact amount they put in a lower number.

e.g. I owe £11 and give them £20 they type in '£12' and give me the £9 change.

???
 

Tej

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Oct 26, 2008
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I go into a newsagent, say, and the shop owner give me the cost of my purchases...I hand over a note or something that requires change and instead of typing in the exact amount they put in a lower number.

e.g. I owe £11 and give them £20 they type in '£12' and give me the £9 change.

???

Don't understand your question.

How is £12 a lower number than £11?.. Do all shops do that or was that a "one off"?

Are they lacking in education?

Perhaps here is a niche for you to sell your card games. To all newsagents.. something in elementary maths .. make learning fun....:D:D
 
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Faith28

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Don't understand your question.

How is £12 a lower number than £11?.. Do all shops do that or was that a "one off"?

Are they lacking in education?

Perhaps here is a niche for you to sell your card games. To all newsagents.. something in elementary maths .. make learning fun....:D:D

12 is lower than 20..

They type in 12 instead of 20.
 
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Faith28

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The answer to the question is staring you in the face.
I mean that in no way to be rude either.

You owe: £11
You give: £20
They type £12 - £11 = £1 change (but they give you £9)

It's all down to TAX (e.g. evasion) :)


I assessed that too, but it can't be tax evasion - or can it. I mean instead of taking £1 out of the till they take £9. This decreases the amount of cash actually in the till.

I need breakfast...
 
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Hey I've been up all night, still full of evergy... I need an office!

Yes, they do take £9 out the till, but I think tax is only charged on how much you receive, including the amount given that you have to change. I don't know anything about retail, but that's just my assumption - so don't take my word for it!

But tax on £20 is still more than tax on £12!
 
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J

James.Dunford

Maybe because the person before, they typed in a higher number than they should have (so £21 instead of £20) and are doing it so there tiull adds up with the till roll at the end of the day? No idea to be honest!!
 
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Faith28

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Thats only the change part!!.. nothing to do with the actual sale is it?

The actual sale is still £11.

Must have been a one off!!

It's happened several times..many many times.
Keep an eye on what they do at the tills - no offence but I have only experienced this with asian owners e.g at petrol stations in shopping centres, newsagents.

I asked one directly the other day and he just screwed his face and said it was a mistake.
 
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Faith28

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Hey I've been up all night, still full of evergy... I need an office!

Yes, they do take £9 out the till, but I think tax is only charged on how much you receive, including the amount given that you have to change. I don't know anything about retail, but that's just my assumption - so don't take my word for it!

But tax on £20 is still more than tax on £12!

No tax is always on sales. The above is not correct.
 
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Robert Wheeler

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Jan 11, 2009
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Generally, it happens it happens by mistake. I can see no financial benefit to it for the retailer as the cash in the till is still the same amount at the end anyway.

Perhaps some people have a system where they add on one pound to indicate there is change due so that they can open the till and tidy it up while they are waiting for the customer to get their money out?
 
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Tej

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It's happened several times..many many times.
Keep an eye on what they do at the tills - no offence but I have only experienced this with asian owners e.g at petrol stations in shopping centres, newsagents.

I asked one directly the other day and he just screwed his face and said it was a mistake.

Well.. there is no benefit . If you are getting a proper receipt for the money you have spent... and the correct change.. what is your problem?

And to single out asian owners ???..you are out of order, in my opinion.

They cannot fiddle the fuel sales?.. mor the items they sell at petrol stations.. most seem to be barcoded anyway!!

Don't see where you are coming from??

Why can't you accept that it was a mistake.
 
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Robert Wheeler

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And to single out asian owners ???..you are out of order, in my opinion.

Why was that 'out of order'? The original poster was making an observation. It was not a derogatory comment that hinged on race. It was as 'out of order' as it would have been if she had said that she had noticed that red haired people seem more likely to own a wheelbarrow.
 
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Faith28

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Well.. there is no benefit . If you are getting a proper receipt for the money you have spent... and the correct change.. what is your problem?

And to single out asian owners ???..you are out of order, in my opinion.

They cannot fiddle the fuel sales?.. mor the items they sell at petrol stations.. most seem to be barcoded anyway!!

Don't see where you are coming from??

Why can't you accept that it was a mistake.

1. My problem is when they give me the wrong change.

2. My experience is with asian owners. I am an asian owner of a business myself so wanted to know what they know that the rest of us didn't. This is no bad reflection just an observation I noticed.
 
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Robert Wheeler

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if they enter £12 pounds instead of £20, when the owner reconciles the till he will be expecting only £12..., so the operator keeps track of all "lost" monies adds up at end of day and takes the difference....maybe....

No, there is no difference in the amount in the till because the operator still gives the customer the correct change. The only thing that is wrong is the amount of money tendered printed on the receipt and the amount of change given printed on the receipt. Otherwise it is exactly the same as the normal transaction. There is no financial difference.
 
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Faith28

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if they enter £12 pounds instead of £20, when the owner reconciles the till he will be expecting only £12..., so the operator keeps track of all "lost" monies adds up at end of day and takes the difference....maybe....

I am trying to get my head round this.

If a sale is '£11'.

And say there is £100 pot of cash in the till.

They take from me £20 and give me £9 change.

There are 2 issuess here:

1) the cash in the till

2) the records in the receipts

----1) cash in the till----

Start: £100 add £20 = £120

They take out £9 from the till to give to me and keep £11.

They will have £111 cash in the till

-----2) records on receipts--

They record £11 sale and only £1 cash taken out of till however they will have taken out £9 out of the till to give to me.

But physically they will show this cash exchange:

£100 + £12 - £9 (actual amount passed to me) = £103 recorded cash in till

??????

Is that right!!!

Their records will show a cash shortage of £8? Which is unaccounted for. Although physically it is still in the till but by record it will look 'missing'.
 
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Robert Wheeler

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I am trying to get my head round this.
*snip*

Whatever came after the *snip* can't be right. There is no way you can fiddle this. If you get the right change then the right money must go into the till. There is no benefit to having incorrect figures on the 'cash tendered' and 'change tendered' parts of the receipt when it comes to fiddling the till. It is purely there to help the checkout operator and the customer check the transaction has been carried out correctly.
 
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Faith28

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Dec 2, 2005
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Whatever came after the *snip* can't be right. There is no way you can fiddle this. If you get the right change then the right money must go into the till. There is no benefit to having incorrect figures on the 'cash tendered' and 'change tendered' parts of the receipt when it comes to fiddling the till. It is purely there to help the checkout operator and the customer check the transaction has been carried out correctly.

Yeah that's the way I originally looked at it .
 
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might be worth noting, I used to own a pub, many moons ago. A scam bar staff will pull is this exact one !....( check next time your in pub - its one of the reasons in large chain pubs they have the till read out above the bar in view....)

although the customer gives money and gets the correct change the till " thinks" differently

i'll explain !!

1. A round is £2.50

2. Customer gives £10 note

3. the amount tendered is rung in at a lower amount, say £5.00 ( or just open the till to record £0.00 ....)

4. The customer is given £7.50 change

5. BUT the till has record of £5.00 going in NOT £10....

6. Operator notes diff and adds all up at end of shift.....made £5.00 on this transaction
 
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Robert Wheeler

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Jan 11, 2009
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might be worth noting, I used to own a pub, many moons ago. A scam bar staff will pull is this exact one !....( check next time your in pub - its one of the reasons in large chain pubs they have the till read out above the bar in view....)

although the customer gives money and gets the correct change the till " thinks" differently

i'll explain !!

1. A round is £2.50

2. Customer gives £10 note

3. the amount tendered is rung in at a lower amount, say £5.00 ( or just open the till to record £0.00 ....)

4. The customer is given £7.50 change

5. BUT the till has record of £5.00 going in NOT £10....

6. Operator notes diff and adds all up at end of shift.....made £5.00 on this transaction

Come on this is ridiculous. It does not matter how much money the till thinks the customer gave or how much change was given as long as the the customer gets the right change. You can not cover up a fiddle this way.

Ok, you could slice some money off if you entered the incorrect amount due to the shop, but then this would appear on the receipt as well. It is completely different and an obvious fraud. You can not fiddle it just by entering the incorrect amount of cash tendered and change returned.
 
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SmilePrint

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I think you guys have watched way too much Hustle and allowed the confusion to set in.

£100 in Till, £11 transaction, £11 sale rung in, £20 tendered rung in, £9 change, Till has £111

£100 in till, £11 transaction, £11 sale rung in, £12 tendered rung in, £1 change given (plus the other £8 to bring you back to your £20), till has £111.

Exactly the same. Maybe this shopkeeper can do sums on £1's but not on 0.01Ps

DOESN'T MATTER, its not tax evasion as the transaction is the same.

You should only be worried if you bought something at £11 and £6 was rung into the till. Different matter entirely.

That would be tax evasion, as well as stealing.

Wasn't there a business forum around here somewhere?......
 
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S

streetslocal

might be worth noting, I used to own a pub, many moons ago. A scam bar staff will pull is this exact one !....( check next time your in pub - its one of the reasons in large chain pubs they have the till read out above the bar in view....)

although the customer gives money and gets the correct change the till " thinks" differently

i'll explain !!

1. A round is £2.50

2. Customer gives £10 note

3. the amount tendered is rung in at a lower amount, say £5.00 ( or just open the till to record £0.00 ....)

4. The customer is given £7.50 change

5. BUT the till has record of £5.00 going in NOT £10....

6. Operator notes diff and adds all up at end of shift.....made £5.00 on this transaction

No,No,No....
If the assistant rings in £2.50 and then types that the person gave a fiver or a tenner and gives the correct change it will not affect the till as the float would still be correct.
I.e the £2.50 which was paid is still there and the correct change was given so the float would be right.

If on the other hand they were doing something like:

The staff knows one pint is £2and somebody orders 5 pints the staff member in there head knows that the total transaction comes to £10 so what they would do is ring in on the till 1 pint but still take the tenner from the customer so at the moment the TILL is £8 UP if they do this on a couple of transactions they are £8 x how many up on the float and will pocket this money.
Even barcodes do not bypass this problem as the open PLU options and unplugging the barcode scanner is a way around this.

Money and cash control is a very tricky area and you have to watch it like a hawk as no matter what systems your business has in place there is always somebody who can take advantage of the system.

Fair enough people might say yes but stok control would flag this issue but by the time you do a stock check an employee could walk away with thousands of pounds of your money.
 
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C

Colin Parker

I think you guys have watched way too much Hustle and allowed the confusion to set in.

£100 in Till, £11 transaction, £11 sale rung in, £20 tendered rung in, £9 change, Till has £111

£100 in till, £11 transaction, £11 sale rung in, £12 tendered rung in, £1 change given (plus the other £8 to bring you back to your £20), till has £111.

Exactly the same. Maybe this shopkeeper can do sums on £1's but not on 0.01Ps

DOESN'T MATTER, its not tax evasion as the transaction is the same.

You should only be worried if you bought something at £11 and £6 was rung into the till. Different matter entirely.

That would be tax evasion, as well as stealing.

Wasn't there a business forum around here somewhere?......

This is exactly what I was thinking ...

How can 'business people' ever imagine that you could pay tax on the money someone tenders rather than the actual selling price of the product. Unbelievable!

And as for the Dr who owned the pub ... Streetslocal has hit the nail on the head ... the Dr's post just doesn't 'add up'.

The big scam in retail is 'under-ringing' where a £10 sale is recorded in the till at £5 ... you take the customers £20 and give him £10 change ... leaving the till with £10 in for a £5 sale. Guess who pockets the £5 ... ?

Many many years ago when I ran newsagents I came back from holiday to find one of my shops was £1,000's of pounds down on cigarette stock. I immediately suspected under-ringing by one the staff and caught her red handed by getting a friend to buy a 200 pack of cigs with a marked £20 note. She rang in a 'no sale' (old tills!) gave him his change and pocketed the £20. In less than 4 weeks she had taken over £5,000.

I sacked the manager for not doing his daily stock checks and the sales assistant was left with the choice of paying me back or being reported to the Police. She paid me back.

Colin Parker
 
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mhall

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I think you will find that Lee Jones is closer to the truth but I think you may be mistaking the amount tendered for the amount originally tilled in. Do you actually get a receipt at all ? If not, I would say the till operator is on a fiddle and perhaps the till won't allow him to make "no sales". (which for us are the first red flags of a member of staff on the fiddle as this shows the till has been opened without a transaction taking place)

If, on the other hand, you are getting a receipt, you can easily check what is going on - see Oneportfolio's points above.
 
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Consider this ...

100 customers a day ' overcharged' £1 [on the till] x 6 days per week x 52 weeks a year = £31,200.

For the customer there is actually no problem. They paid their money for their goods, and they get their goods and they get the change the expected. Just their till receipt reads that they paid £1 more than they actually did. So what. It's a minor mistake.

For the shop owner their till register says each day there should be £100 more in the till than actually there is. So sack the shop assistant!

But wait ...

What if the shop owner adds £100 to the till; the till will appear correct. the taxman will charge tax. HMRC can check back to the till receipts. Everything looks spot on. what an honest trader. In fact, over the year the shop owner could do this 312 times, topping up his till from the money he/she has tucked away for such eventualities.

The source of this mysterious pot of money ... Drugs.

Money laundering may be the explanation. Money laundering involves 'dirty money' to be 'cleaned' i.e. ligitimised and then layered. The shop owner / drugs barons don't care they pay tax on the £31,200 - the remaining say £25,000 [after tax] is now 'clean' money. It can now be paid away ligitimately to whoever is owed it.
 
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Robert Wheeler

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Can anybody explain to me what is going on in this thread? You can not launder money by entering incorrect cash tendered and change given figures on receipts. You can't do it. If the customer walks away with the right change and the right amount of money goes into the till, you can't fiddle it.
 
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D

Deleted member 9840

Consider this ...

100 customers a day ' overcharged' £1 [on the till] x 6 days per week x 52 weeks a year = £31,200.

For the customer there is actually no problem. They paid their money for their goods, and they get their goods and they get the change the expected. Just their till receipt reads that they paid £1 more than they actually did. So what. It's a minor mistake.

For the shop owner their till register says each day there should be £100 more in the till than actually there is. So sack the shop assistant!

But wait ...

What if the shop owner adds £100 to the till; the till will appear correct. the taxman will charge tax. HMRC can check back to the till receipts. Everything looks spot on. what an honest trader. In fact, over the year the shop owner could do this 312 times, topping up his till from the money he/she has tucked away for such eventualities.

The source of this mysterious pot of money ... Drugs.

Money laundering may be the explanation. Money laundering involves 'dirty money' to be 'cleaned' i.e. ligitimised and then layered. The shop owner / drugs barons don't care they pay tax on the £31,200 - the remaining say £25,000 [after tax] is now 'clean' money. It can now be paid away ligitimately to whoever is owed it.

This is exactly what i thought this afternoon......if only i could have put it as eloquently.:redface:
The £8 quid or so that is getting dialled into the till = a little wrap of the brown stuff.
 
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yorkshirejames

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Consider this ...

100 customers a day ' overcharged' £1 [on the till] x 6 days per week x 52 weeks a year = £31,200.

For the customer there is actually no problem. They paid their money for their goods, and they get their goods and they get the change the expected. Just their till receipt reads that they paid £1 more than they actually did. So what. It's a minor mistake.

For the shop owner their till register says each day there should be £100 more in the till than actually there is. So sack the shop assistant!

But wait ...

What if the shop owner adds £100 to the till; the till will appear correct. the taxman will charge tax. HMRC can check back to the till receipts. Everything looks spot on. what an honest trader. In fact, over the year the shop owner could do this 312 times, topping up his till from the money he/she has tucked away for such eventualities.

The source of this mysterious pot of money ... Drugs.

Money laundering may be the explanation. Money laundering involves 'dirty money' to be 'cleaned' i.e. ligitimised and then layered. The shop owner / drugs barons don't care they pay tax on the £31,200 - the remaining say £25,000 [after tax] is now 'clean' money. It can now be paid away ligitimately to whoever is owed it.

Very well put.

I actually thought that this thread was going to be about newsagents etc who always have the till permanently open and never type transactions in.
 
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Hi Robert,

I assure you ... Yes you can. What you have to have are two different businesses. On the one hand you have the 'legitimate' business - the newsagent /petrol station etc. The second business is the drugs dealing, or money laundering arm of the drug dealing set up.

I agree with you that the right amount of money is going into the till for the transaction, and the right amount of change is being given. But, and this is the important point, the till receipt indicates a higher amount of money going into the till.

The drug dealers deal in cash (or other goods.)- but cash is the norm. They sell the drugs and collect the cash in. This cash needs to be sent back to the drug barons - usually abroad. This cash though cannot just be paid into any bank - because the bank staff are trained to look out for, and report, suspicious cash amounts. So the drug dealers have to find ways to 'clean' the 'dirty' money. Cleaning is where they make the dirty drugs money appear legitimate.

In the past they have purchased £40,000 cars with cash; then sold the car shortly afterwards for £30,000. The new buyer of the car believes they got a bargain, falling for the 'sob' story given by the seller. But the drugs dealer got an even bigger one ... £30,000 of 'clean' money - his main objective.

When I worked in a High Street bank I reported on a waiter who paid in £10,000 cash each week; he claimed this was from tips. The money involved is, I believe, staggering.

The government recently enhanced the money laundering rules to now include car dealers, jewellers, recruitment companies, estate agents ... the list is long; if you deal in cash you need to make sure you are not included. So the drug dealers are always looking for new ways to 'clean' their 'dirty' money.

So the drug dealers approach a local business and ask them to clean their money for them. In exchange they allow the shop/legitimate business to retain say £10% of the money cleaned. The way the shop cleans the money was highlighted in my previous post.

In the example I gave the figures quoted were, I suspect, conservative. You could have a whole group of shops doing this - each one cleaning £30 - £50k a year. And would a bank suspect an Asian man wishing to send back £20,000 to his family in India/Pakistan. No, of course not, because he is a legitimate business and the reason for sending the money is a perfectly legitimate reason. But when the money gets to Pakistan it is then forwarded onto the drugs baron's.

This example is a superb way (I think) of money laundering, cleaning and layering in particular. If HMRC check the legitimate business's tills everything looks totally correct. And who is going to question a £1 error on a till. Just look at the posts above; no one has come up with an explanation as to why this is an ongoing, frequent, event.

I have supplied one possible explanation. It might not be correct but ...
 
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Tej

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Oct 26, 2008
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LOL... so now we have most of the asian shopkeepers..drug dealers.. money launderers..

Don't HMRC have a way of figuring the stock/profit margins.. etc. Wouldn't something be flagged up as to why these guys are doing such terrific figures compared to the white man corner shop( if there are any).. or are they happy to be collecting the extra revenue.. tax and VAT etc?

Am I being a simpleton?
 
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Tej

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Oct 26, 2008
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Hi Robert,

I assure you ... Yes you can. What you have to have are two different businesses. On the one hand you have the 'legitimate' business - the newsagent /petrol station etc. The second business is the drugs dealing, or money laundering arm of the drug dealing set up.

I agree with you that the right amount of money is going into the till for the transaction, and the right amount of change is being given. But, and this is the important point, the till receipt indicates a higher amount of money going into the till.

The drug dealers deal in cash (or other goods.)- but cash is the norm. They sell the drugs and collect the cash in. This cash needs to be sent back to the drug barons - usually abroad. This cash though cannot just be paid into any bank - because the bank staff are trained to look out for, and report, suspicious cash amounts. So the drug dealers have to find ways to 'clean' the 'dirty' money. Cleaning is where they make the dirty drugs money appear legitimate.

In the past they have purchased £40,000 cars with cash; then sold the car shortly afterwards for £30,000. The new buyer of the car believes they got a bargain, falling for the 'sob' story given by the seller. But the drugs dealer got an even bigger one ... £30,000 of 'clean' money - his main objective.

When I worked in a High Street bank I reported on a waiter who paid in £10,000 cash each week; he claimed this was from tips. The money involved is, I believe, staggering.

The government recently enhanced the money laundering rules to now include car dealers, jewellers, recruitment companies, estate agents ... the list is long; if you deal in cash you need to make sure you are not included. So the drug dealers are always looking for new ways to 'clean' their 'dirty' money.

So the drug dealers approach a local business and ask them to clean their money for them. In exchange they allow the shop/legitimate business to retain say £10% of the money cleaned. The way the shop cleans the money was highlighted in my previous post.

In the example I gave the figures quoted were, I suspect, conservative. You could have a whole group of shops doing this - each one cleaning £30 - £50k a year. And would a bank suspect an Asian man wishing to send back £20,000 to his family in India/Pakistan. No, of course not, because he is a legitimate business and the reason for sending the money is a perfectly legitimate reason. But when the money gets to Pakistan it is then forwarded onto the drugs baron's.

This example is a superb way (I think) of money laundering, cleaning and layering in particular. If HMRC check the legitimate business's tills everything looks totally correct. And who is going to question a £1 error on a till. Just look at the posts above; no one has come up with an explanation as to why this is an ongoing, frequent, event.

I have supplied one possible explanation. It might not be correct but ...

Needs a convoluted thinker:)

:D
 
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