When are business rates applicable for a home business

[Onthebrightside]

I've a mate who's using part of his house (a converted attached garage) as a gym to start a business in personal training.

Are business rates currently liable if part of that space is being used for household purposes, such as a tumble dryer?

Thanks to anyone who can offer any advice.

 

[WaveJumper]

Well the simple answer is check it out here and with the valuation office ......but you could be opening a real can of worms. I am sure we've had many a thread on this topic as it could affect future sale of property but will certainly if under a current mortgage need to let the lender know (if renting could face even bigger problems with landlord) and of course will effect the insurance cover.

Business rates

Business rates are charged on most non-domestic properties - who has to pay, how your rates are calculated, getting a revaluation, what to do if your premises change.

www.gov.uk

 

[WaveJumper]

Tried to DM you but system shows it out ?

 

[fisicx]

From the link above, your mate may be liable if:

• you’ve made changes to your home for your business, for example converted a garage to a hairdresser’s

Which he clearly has. The fact they put a tumble dryer in there is irrelevant.

They also need to check their mortgage conditions as this may put them in breach.

 

[estwig]

You can't pay business rates on a residential property, you also can't convert the garage into a commercial gym.

Your mate is on thin ice.

 

[Bob Morgan]

You can't pay business rates on a residential property, you also can't convert the garage into a commercial gym.

Your mate is on thin ice.

Plan B will be the Nightclub in the Cellar!

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I can think of 3 people in very close proximity to our house that do hairdressing, nails, beauty treatments and makeup.

One in a log cabin in the garden, full signage and facing the road, another in the converted garage attached to a semi detached house on a residential road and the third in a spare downstairs living room.

The converted garage business is a mates daughter in law and I'm 99% certain that the only issues they had to overcome were with the planning department?

 

[DontAsk]

You can't pay business rates on a residential property,

The government seem to think otherwise.

 

[estwig]

Yea it can be done and it happens, but it is very dicey, there's no assurity that the council won't rock-up at some point to shut it down.

It nearly all depends on the neighbours, cause them a problem with noise, disturbance and people coming and going, you won't last long.

 

[WaveJumper]

The secret is speak to you local planners first obviously (and mortgage company which one friend found harder than dealing with the council) you can take a "chance" (of course) but if you are receiving a lot of visitors and upset the neighbours you're on a hiding to nothing. I also know three people who have converted garages, for both dog grooming and hairdressing with no issues.

A snippet from the GOV link i posted above:

Working at home​

You do not usually have to pay business rates for home-based businesses if you:

• use a small part of your home for your business, for example if you use a bedroom as an office
• sell goods by post

You may need to pay business rates as well as Council Tax if:

• your property is part business and part domestic, for example if you live above your shop
• you sell goods or services to people who visit your property
• you employ other people to work at your property
• you’ve made changes to your home for your business, for example converted a garage to a hairdresser’s

 

[DontAsk]

I also know three people who have converted garages, for both dog grooming and hairdressing with no issues.

We viewed a house for sale that was all set up for hairdressing in the garage. Had been going for a while with no issues.

 

[DontAsk]

You can't pay business rates on a residential property, you also can't convert the garage into a commercial gym.

Specifically https://www.gov.uk/introduction-to-business-rates/working-at-home

You may need to pay business rates as well as Council Tax if:

• your property is part business and part domestic, for example if you live above your shop
• you sell goods or services to people who visit your property
• you employ other people to work at your property
• you’ve made changes to your home for your business, for example converted a garage to a hairdresser’s

 

[estwig]

Specifically https://www.gov.uk/introduction-to-business-rates/working-at-home

You may need to pay business rates as well as Council Tax if:

• your property is part business and part domestic, for example if you live above your shop
• you sell goods or services to people who visit your property
• you employ other people to work at your property
• you’ve made changes to your home for your business, for example converted a garage to a hairdresser’s

Doesn't apply to a fella converting his garage into a commercial gym.

 

[kulture]

Doesn't apply to a fella converting his garage into a commercial gym.

It MIGHT apply, re-read it, selling goods OR SERVCES to people who visit. That prety much defines a gym.

 

[estwig]

It MIGHT apply, re-read it, selling goods OR SERVCES to people who visit. That prety much defines a gym.

He almost certainly won't get planning permission to convert his garage into a commercial gym, therefore he can't pay business rates on something that doesn't exist.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Yea it can be done and it happens, but it is very dicey, there's no assurity that the council won't rock-up at some point to shut it down.

It nearly all depends on the neighbours, cause them a problem with noise, disturbance and people coming and going, you won't last long.

Particularly at the moment, with Local Authorities having to generate funds. My own Planning Department has been resorting to Drones and 'Net Curtain Snitches!'

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

He almost certainly won't get planning permission to convert his garage into a commercial gym, therefore he can't pay business rates on something that doesn't exist.

He's talking about converting the garage for personal training which could require as little as a couple of mats, exercise bike, some weights, a bench and a punchbag! Unless it's a double it wouldn't have room for much more. The crucial part, how many people can use it at one time may dictate the outcome of any planning banana skins?

 

[Onthebrightside]

He's actually already converted it, which was really just a question of swapping the metal door for bricks and a window. I did notice that other houses down the street have done the same thing. The council know about it, it's just a question really if business rates apply. I would say you couldn't train more than 3 people in the gym at any time, but mostly he does 1:1 sessions.

 

[Onthebrightside]

Sorry, I should also have said thank you to everyone who posted links and offered advice. I am very grateful.

Additionally, I'm trying to work out why the PM didn't work - it worked previously for people messaging me. I'm still digging around in the admin section trying to see why I couldn't receive a PM.

 

[UKSBD]

A couple of guys near me wanted to convert a business/industrial unit in to a small gym.

Perfect building, perfect location but got rejected because the class of unit that was currently there only required 2 parking spaces, a gym required 4 (which it didn't have)

 

[estwig]

He's talking about converting the garage for personal training which could require as little as a couple of mats, exercise bike, some weights, a bench and a punchbag! Unless it's a double it wouldn't have room for much more. The crucial part, how many people can use it at one time may dictate the outcome of any planning banana skins?

It's about class usage, it's change of use from class C3 (residential) to class E(d) (indoor recreation and fitness). If planning permission is applied for they will almost certainly refuse it, if someone carries on and just does it anyway, they may well get away with it. The cloud of being shut down at any moment will be hanging over them.

Coming back to the original question, you can't pay business rates on something you don't have permission to do.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

This from a YOGA website .......

Planning Permission for Business Use

Whether you need planning consent depends on the scale of what you do. Use of your home for business, including a room in the home or a outbuilding, is permitted without Planning Permission if the character of the property isn’t changed. More extensive use may require Planning Permission.

This is highly subjective and different Council Planning Departments, indeed officers within them, may interpret this differently; there are some stories of quite harsh treatment.

 

[estwig]

This from a YOGA website .......

Planning Permission for Business Use

Whether you need planning consent depends on the scale of what you do. Use of your home for business, including a room in the home or a outbuilding, is permitted without Planning Permission if the character of the property isn’t changed. More extensive use may require Planning Permission.

This is highly subjective and different Council Planning Departments, indeed officers within them, may interpret this differently; there are some stories of quite harsh treatment.

Thats just rubbish, it's not even close to being true.

Just because it's in black and white, doesn't mean it's right!

People always look for assurity, I get a lot of calls about this and I always have from people who want some kind of permission to run a dog groomers, PT services, yoga classes, teeth whitening, carpentry, mechanics, nails, etc, from home.
I work from home, but no one visits and I don't have deliveries, I'm a back bedroom warrior, what I do is fine even thought technically I don't have permission to do it. If you want to run a business that involves having people visit, regular deliveries, or you make noise, then you will always have the specture of being shut down hanging over you.
It's like this deliberately, it gives the authorities some level of control, if you disturb your neighbours, then the council will come and at least try to shut you down.

 

[Bob Morgan]

This from a YOGA website .......

Planning Permission for Business Use

Whether you need planning consent depends on the scale of what you do. Use of your home for business, including a room in the home or a outbuilding, is permitted without Planning Permission if the character of the property isn’t changed. More extensive use may require Planning Permission.

This is highly subjective and different Council Planning Departments, indeed officers within them, may interpret this differently; there are some stories of quite harsh treatment.

I suggest they stick to Yoga!

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Thats just rubbish, it's not even close to being true.

Just because it's in black and white, doesn't mean it's right!

What about black on pale grey as per this forum?

I refer to my earlier post #7 regarding near neighbours running businesses from home. If you can get your head around that and combine it with the Yoga link above, the conclusion most will make is that the foibles of local planning departments will have some bearing on what's allowable.

I'll add a curved ball in here. One of our customers, a personal trainer who has a gymnasium in her garden. The only solid structure being a car port type arrangement for protection from rain and sun, with other pieces of equipment open to the weather or storable. Planning permission required?

 

[estwig]

What about black on pale grey as per this forum?

I refer to my earlier post #7 regarding near neighbours running businesses from home. If you can get your head around that and combine it with the Yoga link above, the conclusion most will make is that the foibles of local planning departments will have some bearing on what's allowable.

I'll add a curved ball in here. One of our customers, a personal trainer who has a gymnasium in her garden. The only solid structure being a car port type arrangement for protection from rain and sun, with other pieces of equipment open to the weather or storable. Planning permission required?

You're boring me now hun.

I aint biting no more!

 

[kulture]

What about black on pale grey as per this forum?

I refer to my earlier post #7 regarding near neighbours running businesses from home. If you can get your head around that and combine it with the Yoga link above, the conclusion most will make is that the foibles of local planning departments will have some bearing on what's allowable.

I'll add a curved ball in here. One of our customers, a personal trainer who has a gymnasium in her garden. The only solid structure being a car port type arrangement for protection from rain and sun, with other pieces of equipment open to the weather or storable. Planning permission required?

Sorry, it’s still not accurate.

If you run a business from your home where customers visit then planning permission is needed. Office type business and “bedroom” selling avoid the planning requirements because they will say that the rooms used are not EXCLUSIVELY used for the business. However such businesses do not have customers coming and going.

A gym either in the garage or in the garden with paying customers do strictly speaking need planning. However most planning departments are too busy to bother enforcing this especially if no-one complains.

If however neighbours start complaining or if a councillor complains, then all bets are off.

It should be noted that some areas it may well be permitted to do this and if applied for planning permission would be given.

 

[fisicx]

He's actually already converted it, which was really just a question of swapping the metal door for bricks and a window. I did notice that other houses down the street have done the same thing. The council know about it, it's just a question really if business rates apply. I would say you couldn't train more than 3 people in the gym at any time, but mostly he does 1:1 sessions.

Converting a garage into another room in the house doesn’t need planning permission.

What your friend has done is convert it into a place of business that clients visit.

As @estwig has said multiple times, if a neighbour complains he will be in serious trouble. Even is they don’t complain his insurance is invalid.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

You're boring me now hun.

I aint biting no more!

Yep, exactly what I'd do if there were holes in my argument as well

It should be noted that some areas it may well be permitted to do this and if applied for planning permission would be given.

.........which I think sums it up nicely

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

A bit more reading.....

Can I Run a Personal Training Business From My Garage?

If you're searching for the answer to "can I run a personal training business from my garage?" You're in the right place. We have all the answers and how to get yours up and running right away.

origympersonaltrainercourses.co.uk

 

[estwig]

Converting a garage into another room in the house doesn’t need planning permission.

Not true I'm afraid, it often is required. Especially if the property is less than 10 years old, or in a conservation area, it won't have any permitted development rights, or there may be a covenant regarding the parking.

 

[estwig]

A bit more reading.....

Can I Run a Personal Training Business From My Garage?

If you're searching for the answer to "can I run a personal training business from my garage?" You're in the right place. We have all the answers and how to get yours up and running right away.

origympersonaltrainercourses.co.uk

This is the second time you have quoted people with a vested interest in telling others to....... crack on everything is fine. First yoga, now some PT rubbish.

Why not go find a dog groomers franchise, I'm sure they'll say it's fine too.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Not true I'm afraid, it often is required. Especially if the property is less than 10 years old, or in a conservation area, it won't have any permitted development rights, or there may be a covenant regarding the parking.

Quite true with regard to PD Rights. When Local Authorities remove them, they are ensuring an Income Stream keeps flowing from Application Fees - Why would they do otherwise?

 

[estwig]

Quite true with regard to PD Rights. When Local Authorities remove them, they are ensuring an Income Stream keeps flowing from Application Fees - Why would they do otherwise?

I'm registered as a planning agent with most of the LPA's in Kent, they send me a yearly report thingy on the cost to them of processing householder planning applications, which is mainly house extensions and such like, residential stuff. The average cost to them of processing an application of this type is over £800.00, the cost to the client is the same across the whole country at £238.20. The fee is heavily subsidised by central Gov, the local council don't make any money from it, they often lose money on the deal.

 

[DWS]

Not true I'm afraid, it often is required. Especially if the property is less than 10 years old, or in a conservation area, it won't have any permitted development rights, or there may be a covenant regarding the parking.

Agreed, I had to apply for planning permission for the change of use of my Garage into a playroom, I also had to ensure that there was enough parking on my drive to make up for the lost parking space.

 

[kulture]

I've a mate who's using part of his house (a converted attached garage) as a gym to start a business in personal training.

Are business rates currently liable if part of that space is being used for household purposes, such as a tumble dryer?

Thanks to anyone who can offer any advice.

Whilst this is all very interesting, no-one has actually answered the original question, which I have quoted above.

Assuming the converted garage has planning permission and assuming that business use is permitted, the simple fact that the property (garage) is still being used in part for residential use, business rates do not apply.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

This is the second time you have quoted people with a vested interest in telling others to....... crack on everything is fine. First yoga, now some PT rubbish.

Why not go find a dog groomers franchise, I'm sure they'll say it's fine too.

You consider adding a link to a page, that you clearly haven't read enough of to get to the paragraph on permissions, insurance AND Planning, as unhelpful?

Here's one on Dog Grooming for you

Dog grooming legislation in the UK

There are several pieces of legislation that apply to dog grooming businesses. Groomarts Academy has produced the following guide to help.

groomarts.com

 

[kulture]

You consider adding a link to a page, that you clearly haven't read enough of to get to the paragraph on permissions, insurance AND Planning, as unhelpful?

Here's one on Dog Grooming for you

Dog grooming legislation in the UK

There are several pieces of legislation that apply to dog grooming businesses. Groomarts Academy has produced the following guide to help.

groomarts.com

All these links are off topic and misleading. The OP is talking about personal training in a GYM in a converted garage. Not yoga nor washing dogs, nor anything else.

Planning in the UK is incredibly complex and details matter. No-one has asked if the property is in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. No-one has asked if it is in a conservation area. No-one has considered the effects of the Local Plan for that area on the National Framework. No-one has asked if there is a Neighbourhood Plan for that area. Then there is the ownership of the property (Freehold, leashold or rented), whether it is listed, whether there are any covenants or similar ristrictions. There are lots of details that may trip up the unwary.

All these links are sites promoting home businesses of some sort and oversimplifying planning considerations so as to not discourage people.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

All these links are off topic and misleading. The OP is talking about personal training in a GYM in a converted garage. Not yoga nor washing dogs, nor anything else.

Planning in the UK is incredibly complex and details matter. No-one has asked if the property is in England, Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland. No-one has asked if it is in a conservation area. No-one has considered the effects of the Local Plan for that area on the National Framework. No-one has asked if there is a Neighbourhood Plan for that area. Then there is the ownership of the property (Freehold, leashold or rented), whether it is listed, whether there are any covenants or similar ristrictions. There are lots of details that may trip up the unwary.

All these links are sites promoting home businesses of some sort and oversimplifying planning considerations so as to not discourage people.

I'm linking to sites that have relevance to planning and many of the things you list such as ownership of the premises, Freehold etc., My quote (post #22) from the Yoga site echoes some of what you've posted?

The one to the Dog Groomers site was in response to Estwig's request. Anyone who calls me 'Hun' needs help.?

 

[WaveJumper]

Back on topic ?

The Legalities Of Running Your Fitness Business From Your Home Gym - UK

Would you like to use your home gym for your personal training business? Learn the legalities that are involved.

www.instituteofpersonaltrainers.com