Yes they will, because by the time they realise that what you're doing isn't working they will have already paid you at least once (on the basis that you're not a "pay on results" company, of which many are not). It's likely that it has been explained to them that results are not guaranteed, so after they have paid for x months fees and ditched them, the SEO will just move on to their next victim.
Not a bad living for some "SEOs" doing little work. There are plenty of them around.
Should someone selling snake oil get paid just because a person happens to "feel better" at the same time as when they take it? No
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Should someone selling snake oil get paid just because a person happens to "feel better" at the same time as when they take it? No
That makes no sense at all in relation to what we were discussing.?:|
Earl
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It does, it relates to your point about... "Why should you not get paid whether you work or not.?"
Of course you shouldn't be getting paid for something by the hour if you're not working. It would quite simply be a rip off.
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M
Mollart
- Original Poster
- #45
The proof is in the pudding with SEO consultants.
These are the questions you need to be asking. Work out which keywords get the most searches related to phrases (keywords) that will help drive people to your website. Then the price can be valued on competition for that phrase.
- What have they got to the top of Google?
- What was the competition for that phrase?
- How fast did they get it there?
- How much did it cost?
- How many monthly searches are made for that phrase? (use google keyword tool to find out)
These are the questions you need to be asking. Work out which keywords get the most searches related to phrases (keywords) that will help drive people to your website. Then the price can be valued on competition for that phrase.
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J
JohnnyCash
- Original Poster
- #46
Thats part of the equation, yes.
Though I'd say how you ranked something is far more important than how fast it got there when looking at previous results.
Any fool can email a link broker, open an account and load up dozens of crap, off topic, blatantly paid links and often it will work.
But if you're going to do that you don't need an seo - you could do it yourself in 20 minutes. There is no way you should be paying a lot for someone to do that if you do pay - couple of hundred £, max. Its not a skilled job, its not a time consuming job, in fact its hardly even seo.
So if someone shows you rankings as a proof of their worth as an seo, I'd go looking into those rankings (starting with their backlinks).
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M
Mollart
- Original Poster
- #47
Yep very valid point buddy, you can certainly gain links quickly with under handed methods and rank well for a short period of time.
What I was saying was you don't want to hire someone that promises results, but always has you hanging on as they aren't quite there yet while bleeding you dry.
There should be a time period setup for you to move up the SEO ladder, it can't just be purely hit and hope from a professional SEO consultant. Someone consulting should know roughly from the competition and search traffic how much time it will take to get the positions you are looking for.
If anyone is wondering - opensiteexplorer.org is pretty decent for checking a sites back links.
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Depends whether you have quoted to them that it's £100 for the job or £12.50/hour with an estimated time of one working day (8 hours) to complete. All my points are related to SEO fees based on time, not for a project or once certain results have been gained. Keep up.
Let's say I wanted to be page one for "compensation claims". How much are you going to charge me for your "time" including the cost of links?
Exactly.
Since signing up here, I've done a lot of reading and can say safely say there aren't that many competent SEOs on this forum that also have integrity. From JohnnyCash's posts, I would say he is one of the rare few that seems to have both, so you may want to get your notebook out.
By no means do I claim to be an expert myself, but I do have confidence in knowing far more than the average SEO rip off merchant and the ability to research whether a company offers a quality service if I should ever need to outsource link building.
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Why are you an affiliate if you believe that everyone should work on an hourly rate? If I quoted an hourly rate roughly equivalent to what I earn through my own websites, I'd never get any business
By quoting based on value, both parties benefit and I'm not under any pressure to cut corners to remain profitable... I disagree the SEO is easy entry especially at the low end. Those who pay low end rates expect a full time employee and you have to be constantly re-educating and reassuring them for which you don't get paid. Anyone who buys packaged SEO on the cheap gets what they deserve...
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Affiliate, are you saying we should only charge by hours worked?
Eg for a site which is ranking well making a lot of money for a client and charging say £1k pm with an outlay of £100 for some aged domains every month and £100 on different hosting accounts. Doing all that + checking rankings and analytics might take about 1 hour per week so the hourly rate is £200, or are you saying it should be cost of those products + mark up + an hourly rate??
I don't charge an hourly rate or by any quantity. SEO shouldn't and probably cannot be quantified. I hate the I will work 5 hours per month on your site or the I will do X of Y per month. SEO pricing should be all about the returns, if you charge client £10 they should make at least £10.01 back, that's called positive ROI. If they only make £9.99 then they are paying too much and need to find either a better SEO at the same rate or a similar SEO at a cheaper price.
Eg for a site which is ranking well making a lot of money for a client and charging say £1k pm with an outlay of £100 for some aged domains every month and £100 on different hosting accounts. Doing all that + checking rankings and analytics might take about 1 hour per week so the hourly rate is £200, or are you saying it should be cost of those products + mark up + an hourly rate??
I don't charge an hourly rate or by any quantity. SEO shouldn't and probably cannot be quantified. I hate the I will work 5 hours per month on your site or the I will do X of Y per month. SEO pricing should be all about the returns, if you charge client £10 they should make at least £10.01 back, that's called positive ROI. If they only make £9.99 then they are paying too much and need to find either a better SEO at the same rate or a similar SEO at a cheaper price.
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Some of us do... but I wouldn't like to rely solely on affiliate sites for my business plan. Affiliate sites account for < 30% of our non SEM income.
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Great. I`ve seen some experts asking for % of sales increase
Why doesn`t accountant/security guard/delivery man or postman doesn`t ask for chunk of profits - they all help to increase my revenue
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I do both, not going into %'s or $/£ on an open forum but what i will say is that while affiliate stuff is great, it ain't half mind numbing. No challenge, and ne real buzz beyond money coming in, and once you get to the point where you ahve more money than month, then it isn't really a motivator (for me anyhow)
I REALLY enjoy seeing the results come in and the affect it has on the business i am working with.
Currently I do the following
1. work with clients on a £ fee basis
2. work with clients on a % fee basis (stepped fees based on increases)
3. work with partners on a profit share basis
4. work with partners on a share ownership basis
5. joint venture (new business0
6. my own affilaite site
7. my own fee earning sites (paid memberships)
8. work with people for free (charities and suitable good causes only)
business is buinsess, there are many ways to skin the cat
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JohnnyCash
- Original Poster
- #61
How can you say there is no challenge... as after all you choose which exact niches to compete in, rather than with client stuff you just need to work with whatever they want to rank for.
There are affiliate opportunities in all of the most competitive niches surely?
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Great. I`ve seen some experts asking for % of sales increase
Because none of them are stepping in and directly bringing customers to your site.
You are not the first to raise this, and the reason it seems odd is down to mindset.
you have to compare it to what it is comparable to :-
telesales. - they find you clients and rag them in or actually close deals. WHY PAY THEM and not the accountsnt etc?
Off site canvasser - they find you clients and drag them in or actually close deals. WHY PAY THEM and not the accountsnt etc?
Leaflet designer, printer, distributer - they find you clients and drag them in or actually close deals. WHY PAY THEM and not the accountsnt etc?
yellow pages - they find you clients and drag them in or actually close deals. WHY PAY THEM and not the accountsnt etc?
newspaper - they find you clients and drag them in or actually close deals. WHY PAY THEM and not the accountsnt etc?
We had a free newssheet, when we got out, it was making more from our own adverts that from advertising, to the point where we were happy to GIVE advertising away as long as it had offers, why? Because we were earning £75-£120 per mobile phone we gave away (and to give you a better idea we are talking about early Motorola bricks)
An SEO will say 'give me profit share etc, then will step in and inprove traffic, conversions, and thus profitability.
What amazes me is that people complain about paying for a business tool ?
people can think what they think, but the facts are that themore competitive a niche is, the more it costs to rank and convert in that arena. Traffic alone won't always cut it, you have to have a conversion head on as well.
So if a consultant knows that if he puts in x amount of effort, the client will get xx return, then ongoing there is y amount of input. How do they charge?
WHy is it that people are happy to pay 10% on Ebay, but believe it to be wrong for someone to ask for 10% of sales THEY bring in?
The reality is that the wb is its infancy and business people need to understand the opportunities out there and grasp them with both hands.
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because you are in control of everything, nothing exists when you identify the item to be targetted, you build and promote and earn. same thing over and over again, and the ONLY thing you get at the end is money.
If a genie granted you two wishes, and your first wish was for a never enptying pint of ice cold lager, what would be the point in asking for the same thing as your second wish
The challenge in working with others and clients is that there are so many elements to pull together. a new start for example has nothing, nothing whatsoever. To see that come to fruition and it all working is FAR more of a buzz than "you have funds"
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The challenge in working with others and clients is that there are so many elements to pull together. a new start for example has nothing, nothing whatsoever. To see that come to fruition and it all working is FAR more of a buzz than "you have funds"
Are you insane.?
You do mean after you have sufficient funds the next big buzz is seeing a business take off.
Earl
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And there you go. it should be the other way around
I hear what you are saying, but news travels fast, you shouldn't have to be calling anyone.
ADDED> I don't mean to say that YOU are calling anyone, I am just saying that people who earn money for other people don't cold call, they answer the phone .
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JohnnyCash
- Original Poster
- #68
You've lost me.
I wasn't talking about asking them to work with me... I was referring to not being able to spend "buzz" or "warm feeling" or anything like that on actual products or general living. For me, thats why working on affil sites will win every single time over doing client stuff.
Whether you think affiliate stuff is boring or not is certainly debatable, its an opinion. But its a cold hard fact that building your own sites is significantly more profitable than selling seo to businesses.
If you can do it, but find it boring, then I'd say thats unfortunate but get on with it I don't really have the luxury to do a job just because I enjoy it... not when theres one paying 10-100 times as much to be done. If I could I'd just stick my laptop in the bin and work as a dog walker
I wasn't talking about asking them to work with me... I was referring to not being able to spend "buzz" or "warm feeling" or anything like that on actual products or general living. For me, thats why working on affil sites will win every single time over doing client stuff.
Whether you think affiliate stuff is boring or not is certainly debatable, its an opinion. But its a cold hard fact that building your own sites is significantly more profitable than selling seo to businesses.
If you can do it, but find it boring, then I'd say thats unfortunate but get on with it
I don't really have the luxury to do a job just because I enjoy it... not when theres one paying 10-100 times as much to be done. If I could I'd just stick my laptop in the bin and work as a dog walker
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But I have already said that i DO have affiliate sites
it is simple, people say money can't buy you hapopiness, but you try being happy without it. That said, not all people are motivated PURELY by money, and oddly enough the less NEED they have the less they are motivated by money alone.
the key there is 'alone'.
the ONLY time i will work long term for someone for free, is if it is a charity of good cause, other than that there MUSt be a pay off at the end. But what i am trying to say is that although there is a payoff, the real 'buzz' is seeing it work. (but money always follows success) as you know be it affiliate, shares, buy in sell back, whatever the deal, if success hits there is always a payout.
it is simple, people say money can't buy you hapopiness, but you try being happy without it. That said, not all people are motivated PURELY by money, and oddly enough
the less NEED they have the less they are motivated by money alone. the key there is 'alone'.
the ONLY time i will work long term for someone for free, is if it is a charity of good cause, other than that there MUSt be a pay off at the end. But what i am trying to say is that although there is a payoff, the real 'buzz' is seeing it work. (but money always follows success) as you know be it affiliate, shares, buy in sell back, whatever the deal, if success hits there is always a payout.
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I love how you said when. If it makes a tenner a day I will be asking for a nappy!
16 years ago I thought the internet was for elitist jerks,and no one could make money from it.:|
I was half right.
Earl
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The cost of hiring an SEO expert is most of the time huge. This was the very reason I have taught myself. It really depends on what you want out of the service, for instance to get a website into the top 3 of google for several search terms would cost the expert about £300 over several months without taking into account the hours worked?
PM me your website and I will give you some quick free advice. Sometimes only one simple thing can make all the difference.
PM me your website and I will give you some quick free advice. Sometimes only one simple thing can make all the difference.
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The affiliate sells other peoples products for a commission. e.g. you send a customer to Amazon you get a percentage of their spend.Can somebody explain in simple terms what are those aff sites
Too many people see an SEO as a cost. An accountant is usually a cost (though not always), but a decent SEO will add to the profit of the business and as such is an investment.
And how much has that cost you? Most small business owners have enough to do without having to learn a new skill unrelated to their field. Most small businesses cannot market themselves very well even without the interwebby... The most successful businesses always hire in expertise.
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