Website URL swiped from under us

[keepitsecret]

Hi guys,

We were recently after a .co.uk domain which expired Midnight on the 4th September but were pipped to the post (must of been 30 secs) of it being registered by someone else!

They are based in New Zealand and have just brought it to sell it on. We feel like the rug swiped from under us. We own a UK Ltd compnay in the name of the domain itself and he's just sitting his fat NZ A** on it currently! (Highly annoying)

I have heard of stories where people are able to claim domains if they are not being used for a legit purpose. I am wirte in thinking this? and if so, I'm guessing it costs a lot of money to fight it legally?

regards
Mark B.

P.S - Here is the 'Whois' for the URL in question..

Registrant:
Garth Piesse

Registrant type:
Non-UK Individual

Registrant's address:
Domain-For-Sale.co.uk
PO Box 181
Palmerston North
Manawatu
4440
New Zealand

Registrar:
Coherent Limited [Tag = COHERENT-NZ]

Relevant dates:
Registered on: 03-Sep-2011
Renewal date: 03-Sep-2013
Last updated: 03-Sep-2011

Registration status:
Registration request being processed.

Name servers:
ns1.dsredirection.com
ns2.dsredirection.com

WHOIS lookup made at 09:56:16 05-Sep-2011

 

[OldWelshGuy]

They used a pre registration service and beat you to it.

If it is a UK domain and you own a trademark then you can go to nominet and it certainly doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

 

[iksol]

I think you need to take this up with nominet.

Take a look at:
http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/drs/
http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/caselaw/trademarks/

From what you say, it does sound like you potentially have a case to take legal action, either indepedently, or through Nominet.

I would contact this person in New Zealand and make a nominal offer to purchase the domain from him (maybe just enough to make sure he's not out of pocket, and a few quid for his troubles). If he declines, and I'm sure he will, contact Nominet for their view, and then take it from there.

 

[WebTrust]

This exact thing happened to me as well.

I had to just pay the guy for it, what domain was it? (PM me)

I looked into all the nominet stuff and legalities but I had to pay.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

All is fair in business, he beat you to it, you had the same chance

Why not just offer him a reasonable amount for it

 

[keepitsecret]

Hi guys,

thanks for all your replies.

I will first of all try and contact him and offer a reasonable amount. If not then I will goto Nominet to take it further.

regards
Mark B

 

[NuBlue]

If not then I will goto Nominet to take it further.

Do you have protection over the name you are trying to register (the trademark for it)? If you do have this and had it when the domain was registered then go through the process with Nominet and the domain will be given to you.

Otherwise don't bother with Nominet as the current registrar has as much right to it as you if you dont have any protection over it.

 

[MartCactus]

Hi guys,

thanks for all your replies.

I will first of all try and contact him and offer a reasonable amount. If not then I will goto Nominet to take it further.

regards
Mark B

Word of advice - don't mention who you are, what site you represent.

Tell them you're thinking of creating a new site and investigating a number of different domain names. If he knows you already have a business with same/similar name it gives him much stronger bargaining position. If he thinks that he's competing against a number of different domain names that you're considering, he might be more disposed to let it go for a competitive price.

 

[Dymo King]

Word of advice - don't mention who you are, what site you represent.

Tell them you're thinking of creating a new site and investigating a number of different domain names. If he knows you already have a business with same/similar name it gives him much stronger bargaining position. If he thinks that he's competing against a number of different domain names that you're considering, he might be more disposed to let it go for a competitive price.

But if you try that and he refuses, and it's a .co.uk and you have the name trademarked or are currently trading as that name.... then you could point out that the domain is worthless to anyone else but you (as if anyone else uses it you would sue them for passing off and or trademark infringement), so he might as well just sell to you for the 'reasonable sum' as nobody else will buy it, and you have 'other options' so you won't pay more.

 

[Benw]

Hi there,

I've been hit by the same guy! Did you have any luck with this?

Ben

 

[Zonline]

Hi,

This happens every day domains drop and are caught by domainers. You dont have a leg to stand on unless you have a trademark on the domain. Its a big market if you need help just let me know.

If the domain is any good you will never be able to hand register this.


Zonline

 

[allsquare]

This guy is clearly on the ball with .co.uk domains as we "lost out" on a domain we'd set-up a domain watch for too

I emailed but no response.

Just makes you wonder if there is insider knowledge of these domains

 

[Nathanto]

but were pipped to the post (must of been 30 secs)

It will have been registered within milliseconds of the domain expiring.

Just makes you wonder if there is insider knowledge of these domains

No insider knowledge just very fast servers connected to very fast networks running very sophisticated code that grabs the domain within milliseconds of it dropping.

Almost all suspended .uk domains will drop 92 days after the renewal date. The trick though is that the time of day the domain drops is completely random and that's where the various algorithms that domainers have developed over the years come in to play.

 

[lynxus]

All is fair in business, he beat you to it, you had the same chance

Why not just offer him a reasonable amount for it

It ISNT fair business and that is why Nominet have the procedures to get the domain off them.

Domain squatters are the bane of the internet and all need shooting.

A NON UK resident hoarding UK business names on a UK domain will not have a leg to stand on if you own the trademark for the domain name in question.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

IF you own the trademark. that is the key, otherwise it is just business and what was said is correct.

 

[kulture]

It ISNT fair business and that is why Nominet have the procedures to get the domain off them.

Domain squatters are the bane of the internet and all need shooting.

A NON UK resident hoarding UK business names on a UK domain will not have a leg to stand on if you own the trademark for the domain name in question.

Absolutely true, and it is very likely that Nominet will rule in your favour as this is an abusive registration (in their terms). Since it is clearly domain squatting with the intent to sell. That said Nominet will charge you £750 for this. These people know this, and thus can get away with offering to sell to you at an amount less than £750 and thus make a profit. Whilst you will clearly want to spend as little as possible to get your domain.

 

[Nathanto]

Absolutely true, and it is very likely that Nominet will rule in your favour as this is an abusive registration (in their terms). Since it is clearly domain squatting with the intent to sell.

Without knowing the domain and company name in question it is impossible to know whether this is an "abusive registration".

Having a company called WIDGETS LTD does not automatically give you the right to own widgets.co.uk or widgets.org.uk, it does however give you the right to own widgets.ltd.uk.

Buying domain names with the intent to sell is not wrong, illegal or automatically an abusive registration. For it to be "abusive" the registration has to be shown to take unfair advantage of or be detrimental to the company's legal rights (e.g. their trademark.)

http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/drs/?contentId=5239

Trading in domain names for profit, and holding a large portfolio of domain names, are of themselves lawful activities.

 

[DesignerNick]

Domaining is something I would love to get into, it is a big business!

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I have loads and loads and loads of domains, they are bought for projects and sat waiting. does this make me an abusive domainer? I think not.

I own homeindevon for example,

 

[kulture]

Nominet says

a. A non-exhaustive list of factors which may be evidence that the Domain Name is an Abusive Registration is as follows:

i. Circumstances indicating that the Respondent has registered or otherwise acquired the Domain Name primarily:

A.for the purposes of selling, renting or otherwise transferring the Domain Name to the Complainant or to a competitor of the Complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of the Respondent's documented out-of-pocket costs directly associated with acquiring or using the Domain Name;
B. as a blocking registration against a name or mark in which the Complainant has Rights; or
C. for the purpose of unfairly disrupting the business of the Complainant;

 

[WebTrust]

Absolutely true, and it is very likely that Nominet will rule in your favour as this is an abusive registration (in their terms). Since it is clearly domain squatting with the intent to sell. That said Nominet will charge you £750 for this. These people know this, and thus can get away with offering to sell to you at an amount less than £750 and thus make a profit. Whilst you will clearly want to spend as little as possible to get your domain.

What domains did they rule in your favor on?

No I'm not asking what their web site says, I'm asking what domains you got through the Nominet procedure.

If you want the domains these company buy, you have to pay, it's sad, it's annoying and it's a pain in the arse, but unfortunately you just have to pay!

 

[kulture]

I agree, the nominet procedurebis expensive and not certain. Buying direct is a more certain option. As others have said, the threat of the possibility of using nominet might reduce the value and thus the price.

 

[theaffiliate]

Kulture, you are wrong assuming it's abusive. To everyone else saying it is, it's not. It's business, buy low and sell high. Do you not operate your own businesses to make a profit? Domain catchers invest thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours into their systems.

Nathano (as you already know!) you are right with everything you have said.

If anyone has "lost" their domain, it's their own fault for not renewing it sooner. You would have realised it's not working after about a month as the domain gets suspended and any web hosting attached to it will cease to work. This gives you a further two months to sort things out!

If you have lost your domain, make a fair offer to buy it back. By a fair offer, this could be what you would be happy to sell that name for if you owned it. If you go to Nominet, most of the time you won't have a case and you'll just annoy the catcher even more and bump the price up for their inconvenience.

Smarter Webdesign, check out Acorn Domains. Great guys over there.

 

[Nathanto]

Nominet says
a. A non-exhaustive list of factors which may be evidence that the Domain Name is an Abusive Registration is as follows:

A.for the purposes of selling, renting or otherwise transferring the Domain Name to the Complainant or to a competitor of the Complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of the Respondent's documented out-of-pocket costs directly associated with acquiring or using the Domain Name;

There's nothing in the OP's posts to indicate the new domain owner has tried to sell or rent the domain to them.

B. as a blocking registration against a name or mark in which the Complainant has Rights; or

The OP hasn't said they have a trademark on their name.

C. for the purpose of unfairly disrupting the business of the Complainant;

The domain is not being used to disrupt the OP's business.

We own a UK Ltd compnay in the name of the domain itself

I don't believe you do, the domain is (presumably) keepitsecret.co.uk and there's no such company as KeepItSecret.co.uk Ltd. There are around 300 domain extensions around the world, having a company name does not give you the automatic right to every one of the 300 domains based on your company name.

However as mentioned before you (and you alone) are entitled to register keepitsecret.ltd.uk. You may also want to grab keepitsecret.org.uk while it is still available.

I have heard of stories where people are able to claim domains if they are not being used for a legit purpose.

Buying a domain in order to sell it is a legit purpose.

 

[Nathanto]

As others have said, the threat of the possibility of using nominet might reduce the value and thus the price.

I disagree.

Unless there is more to this than the OP has thus far revealed (e.g. the new domain owner has contacted the OP to try to sell it) then there is absolutely no basis for a Nominet DRS (Dispute Resolution Service) and being a professional domainer the domain owner will know this.

Making baseless threats to go to Nominet will in my view only rub the owner up the wrong way, show them how desperate you are to get that unique domain and make them more likely to hold out for more.

 

[kulture]

There's nothing in the OP's posts to indicate the new domain owner has tried to sell or rent the domain to them.

apart from the registrants details which reads

Registrant's address:
Domain-For-Sale.co.uk

The OP hasn't said they have a trademark on their name.

No they said that they owned the company that is the same name as the domain.

The domain is not being used to disrupt the OP's business.

I never said it was. It was presumably purchased in order to re-sell.

I don't believe you do, the domain is (presumably) keepitsecret.co.uk and there's no such company as KeepItSecret.co.uk Ltd. There are around 300 domain extensions around the world, having a company name does not give you the automatic right to every one of the 300 domains based on your company name.

However as mentioned before you (and you alone) are entitled to register keepitsecret.ltd.uk. You may also want to grab keepitsecret.org.uk while it is still available.

Now you are just being silly. Why suggest that the OP is lying? Just because they did not reveal their company name? The OP said that they own the company and the person in NZ has just registered the .co.uk domain. The OP has not ever suggested that they own the right to any other domain of any other suffix, just the one ending .co.uk

Now if ANYONE else starts trading from this domain, it COULD (please note COULD) be construed as passing on, and it COULD be taken from them by Nominet (for a fee). Thus this does reduce the potential value as it carries a risk.

Secondly Nominets definition of an "abusive" registration does include where people have bought a domain specifically to sit on it and sell to the company that it "should" belong to. If you go through the full list of domain disputes then you will see that they have done this many many times. It is not certain however in this case as we do not know the EXACT name of the company. Naturally they would have a much better case if the company name was also trademarked.

Buying a domain in order to sell it is a legit purpose.

I have NEVER said that buying domains for re-sale is not a legitimate business. It is in fact a very good business and no doubt profitable. BUT there are rules associated with this and when such a business registers a domain. There is a world of difference buying a domain thisisagoodname.co.uk when this is not an existing company, and the domain thisisacompanythatidonotown.co.uk. The first is a good investment and well done for getting it, the second carries a risk.

 

[DesignerNick]

Just because they own the company they don't have a right to the domain name though, unless the company name is trademarked. If I was to go and buy Uggboots.co.uk I know for a fact they are strict with their name so they would send me a cease and desist as well as the reg fees and I would have to hand over the domain to prevent a legal battle.

If it is bigjoeschippy.co.uk, I doubt it would be trademarked so there is not much that can be done. Yes somebody may have bought it just to sell on, but that is their business.

You are just going to have to bite the bullet and hand the money over if you really need the domain so much, if not you will need to look at workarounds!

 

[Nathanto]

apart from the registrants details which reads
Domain-For-Sale.co.uk

There's a world of difference between advertising that something is for sale and actively trying to sell it to a particular company. The Nominet DRS is quite specific that abuse would be "for the purpose of selling ... TO the [company]". Furthermore the DRS continues "Trading in domain names for profit ... are of themselves lawful activities. "

No they said that they owned the company that is the same name as the domain.

But they don't.

Why suggest that the OP is lying? ... The OP has not ever suggested that they own the right to any other domain of any other suffix, just the one ending .co.uk

I'm suggesting the OP is mistaken, not lying. You are making the same mistake. The domain is keepitsecret.co.uk and the extension .co.uk is a fundamental part of the domain. Neither you or the OP can arbitrarily decide that only the first part of the domain should be considered when deciding who has the right to a domain.

Nominet has already done this for the OP and has decided that for a Ltd company the only domain they automatically have the rights to is keepitsecret.ltd.uk

Now if ANYONE else starts trading from this domain, it COULD (please note COULD) be construed as passing on, and it COULD be taken from them by Nominet (for a fee).

That goes without saying but has little to do with the domain itself. The new owner would need to be trading in the same business as the OP to be accused of passing off but if they were doing so then whether they used keepitsecret.co.uk, keepitsecret.com or keepitsecret.eu the outcome would be the same.

Secondly Nominets definition of an "abusive" registration does include where people have bought a domain specifically to sit on it and sell to the company that it "should" belong to.

I don't doubt it but there's nothing said by the OP so far to indicate that this domain "should" belong to them.

I have NEVER said that buying domains for re-sale is not a legitimate business.

My comment was in reply to a quote from the OP not you.

 

[kulture]

I am amazed at the reaction to my making simple FACTUAL statements. I would suggest that you all have a good look at the Nominet web site and their dispute guidlines and procedures. Also have a look at the actual cases they have dealt with and the descisions.

Nathano I am beginng to think you are a troll. The OP has never given the name of his company. He states "I own a company with the name name as the .co.uk" He has not said that the name is "keepitsecret" so you are wasting everyones time banging on about this.

Likewise the domain Domain-For-Sale.co.uk points to a web site which (not surprisingly) offers domains for sale. Which is a reasonably fair indication that they are in the legitimate busines of buying and selling domains.

Nominet, if you bother to read their web site, says that having a trademark in the name is not necessary. You have to show that you have "rights" to the name and that these "rights" existed prior to the alledged "abusive" registration. Now "rights" are not fully defined and it is left up to the expert to decide on a case by case basis.

If you look at the details of the descisions made, over half of the cases where the complainent has been what looks like a small limited company to someone else have been upheld and the domain transfered. These were all simple cases (which cost £200) and thus no details are given. There are a few cases where no action was taken which were again simple cases so again no details were given. Although I cannot be sure, I suspect that trademarks were not involved and the simple fact that the domain name was exactcompamyname.co.uk was enough to give "rights" to the EXACTCOMPANYNAME ltd.

I am sorry if my quoting facts that you do not like upsets you.

The simple FACTS are that you do not need to have a trademark either registered or unregistered (Nominets words) in order to show you hae rights over a name. Nominet HAS transfered domains to simple companies.

The possibility that this could occur here mean that the value of the domain name is thus reduced.

 

[kulture]

What domains did they rule in your favor on?

No I'm not asking what their web site says, I'm asking what domains you got through the Nominet procedure.

If you want the domains these company buy, you have to pay, it's sad, it's annoying and it's a pain in the arse, but unfortunately you just have to pay!

I have successfully DEFENDED one of my web sites in a Nominet dispute process. So I know the process.

I would say to anyone reading this thread that if you are about to register a company it is best to also register both the .co.uk and the .com with ths same name as the company. That way you will never get into this trouble.

If you want proper protection then never rely simply on the fact that the company name is registered with companies house. It is BETTER to get a the trade name registered.

When you register a domain, you do not OWN it. You never OWN a domain name, you simply rent the name. For UK domains you rent them from Nominet.

Nominet have the absolute authority on whether you have the "rights" to a name or not. You can build a strong case by registering trademarks and names, by having the company name, by trading under that name and building up a reputation with that name. BUT nothing beats registering the domain FIRST.

I still think the OP may have a case, but it would be quicker and probably cheaper to simply contact the business that has registered the name and ask to buy it. Whilst you are at it make sure the .com is available too, as you would otherwise be wasting your money. (I have made this mistake and am still paying the price).

 

[Nathanto]

I am amazed at the reaction to my making simple FACTUAL statements.

The reaction you've had to your "factual" statements is not surprising since so many of your statements on this matter are simply factually wrong - as has been pointed out by myself and others.

The OP has never given the name of his company. He states "I own a company with the name name as the .co.uk" He has not said that the name is "keepitsecret" so you are wasting everyones time banging on about this.

The OP's username is keepitsecret, there's a Ltd company called "Keep It Secret Ltd" and Garth Piesse registered keepitsecret.co.uk on 03-Sep-2011 - that's one heck of a coincidence if not the name/domain in question. Regardless the principles remain the same whatever the domain is.

The simple FACTS are that you do not need to have a trademark either registered or unregistered (Nominets words) in order to show you hae rights over a name.

The simple fact is that you plainly don't understand the DRS process.

The OP may or may not have "rights" to "Keep It Secret" but that's besides the point. What you've completely ignored in this last post is that having rights is not enough, there are two parts to a successful DRS; firstly you must show that you do have "rights" but secondly and just as importantly you have to show that the domain name was an "Abusive Registration".

Your previous statement "... this is an abusive registration ... Since it is clearly domain squatting with the intent to sell" is simply wrong. The OP has given no evidence that the registration is abusive and on that basis all the advice to take it further with Nominet is in my opinion misguided.

One of the few things I do agree with you on is that people should read through the DRS cases. Of the ones I looked at regarding "domain for sale" none were proven to be abusive simply because the domain was for sale.

 

[WebTrust]

The reaction you've had to your "factual" statements is not surprising since so many of your statements on this matter are simply factually wrong - as has been pointed out by myself and others.



The OP's username is keepitsecret, there's a Ltd company called "Keep It Secret Ltd" and Garth Piesse registered keepitsecret.co.uk on 03-Sep-2011 - that's one heck of a coincidence if not the name/domain in question. Regardless the principles remain the same whatever the domain is.



The simple fact is that you plainly don't understand the DRS process.

The OP may or may not have "rights" to "Keep It Secret" but that's besides the point. What you've completely ignored in this last post is that having rights is not enough, there are two parts to a successful DRS; firstly you must show that you do have "rights" but secondly and just as importantly you have to show that the domain name was an "Abusive Registration".

Your previous statement "... this is an abusive registration ... Since it is clearly domain squatting with the intent to sell" is simply wrong. The OP has given no evidence that the registration is abusive and on that basis all the advice to take it further with Nominet is in my opinion misguided.

One of the few things I do agree with you on is that people should read through the DRS cases. Of the ones I looked at regarding "domain for sale" none were proven to be abusive simply because the domain was for sale.

I disagree for one simple reason, keep it secret is way to generic.

You could use that for so many different business and industries it's also almost a saying.

 

[DesignerNick]

Just buy it off them or change your business name

I don't think you have much chance of forcing them to hand it over.

 

[bizsprinter]

where's the OP?? What ended up happening?

 

[WebTrust]

where's the OP?? What ended up happening?

he failed, domains still for sale.

 

[webstore]

Hi guys,

We were recently after a .co.uk domain which expired Midnight on the 4th September but were pipped to the post (must of been 30 secs) of it being registered by someone else!

They are based in New Zealand and have just brought it to sell it on. We feel like the rug swiped from under us.

If its any consolation, with New Zealand it's a two way street and we recently registered LostDogs.co.nz which might have annoyed some in NZ.

Was the domain you were after Domain-For-Sale.co.uk ?

If so you should not fret since our experience with loads of sites/ domains we operate, we have found that hyphenated domains are seemingly seen as a negative with Google and don't appear high in SERPs.
.

 

[keepitsecret]

Hi, guys..

Whoa.. I didnt expect so much reaction from this.

to anwser some questions. Our company is called 'Keep it Secret' and its is Ltd and registered in the UK.

we've wanted the .com for ever but that will never become available so kind of pinned our hopes on getting the .co.uk

(we already own www.keep-it-secret.co.uk)

However, I think the guy would be looking for £1000's for the domain when I know for a fact he purchased it for about £6GBP for 2 years.

Its a shame, that's all.. Dont really want to change the name of the company as its well known in the Niche we deal in.

any other advice is always welcome.

regards
Mark B.

 

[Nathanto]

we've wanted the .com for ever but that will never become available so kind of pinned our hopes on getting the .co.uk

However, I think the guy would be looking for £1000's for the domain when I know for a fact he purchased it for about £6GBP for 2 years.

Have you approached the .com owner? If so how much did they want?

You need to ignore how much Garth Piesse "paid" for the domain; by any measure the domain has a much higher value than what you think he paid. (And if he uses third-party catching systems then he'll have paid more than you think.)

If you want that particular domain then all you can do is decide the most you're prepared to pay and make a serious offer to the current owner. For what it's worth I'd have thought 500 GBP would be a reasonable price for what is quite a memorable and generic (but a little long for my liking) domain name.

Alternatively you simply need to choose a different extension; if I were in your shoes for the sake of less than a tenner I'd have registered keepitsecret.org.uk already.

 

[cith08]

Im sure you can get this if it is not being used!

 

[webstore]

. . . . Our company is called 'Keep it Secret' and its is Ltd and registered in the UK.

we've wanted the .com for ever but that will never become available so kind of pinned our hopes on getting the .co.uk

(we already own www.keep-it-secret.co.uk)

However, I think the guy would be looking for £1000's for the domain when I know for a fact he purchased it for about £6GBP for 2 years . . . .

Remember (i) .co.uk is best for selling in the UK (ii) in our experience hyphenated domain names are bad news with Google etc SERPs (iii) unless you are well known its always best to have a domain name that matches the most popular keywords surfers are likely to enter in looking for the sort of products you offer.
.