Web developers

bwglaw

Free Member
Apr 8, 2005
4,567
242
Richmond, Surrey
What is it with Web Developers these days. Everyone we have used are unreliable one way or another. They must be making too much money!

One of our websites took over 6 months to be built from briefing to go-ahead.

Following a posting on here we were approached by a company to organise transfers for us. Agreed their price and heard nothing! They obviously didnt want our £600 contract!

Another web developer we asked to do the transfer after setting up the server for us, is now taking forever!

Come on you Web Developers, get your customer care skills in order!, unless you want to be painted with the same brush! By the way, if you are a web developer or some kind of technician looking to take up work from us please do not bother unless you can turnaround the work within a reasonable timeframe.

No wonder foreign people are keen to do the work for peanuts! We need immigration at this rate!

A disgruntled Director!
 
J

JoyDivision

Thanks I have just spotted a niche for my business plan :D

I worked for a web develop once and the contract was delayed becuase the clinet kept changing their minds, so they offered to pay my fees (I got landed with the extra work).

One of the problems is that clients don't understand what is possible, they want stuff which is wrong for many reasons.

It can be very difficult to tell customers what they want is not always right.

I once heared of an example where they say photo graph of a goal net and they said can you make this animated so that a footballer is kicking a goal into it.

What they actually wanted is a short movie of this, which is not really possible unless it was filmed from scratch.

Also with the web there can be many third party problems with delay things.

Web developers should have good enough project management skills to allow for these delays though and there is no excuse to delay projects unless its the client that changes things.
 
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W

William Wilson

I was commission to shoot a range of product for a new website, the developer literally dropped the entire scope in my hands and the client thought I was running the show.

I delivered on time within budget that was in March the website nowhere to be seen, the client totally p.........d and it was no cheap project.

Another client told me they had been wait 2 years for a basic Actinic site. Every excuse in the book being used, he's still waiting.

May be I chose the wrong profession; developers seem to get away with it. A photographer would loose their hard earned reputation if they acted this way with a client.
 
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bwglaw

Free Member
Apr 8, 2005
4,567
242
Richmond, Surrey
JoyDivision said:
Thanks I have just spotted a niche for my business plan :D

I worked for a web develop once and the contract was delayed becuase the clinet kept changing their minds, so they offered to pay my fees (I got landed with the extra work).

One of the problems is that clients don't understand what is possible, they want stuff which is wrong for many reasons.

It can be very difficult to tell customers what they want is not always right.

I once heared of an example where they say photo graph of a goal net and they said can you make this animated so that a footballer is kicking a goal into it.

What they actually wanted is a short movie of this, which is not really possible unless it was filmed from scratch.

Also with the web there can be many third party problems with delay things.

Web developers should have good enough project management skills to allow for these delays though and there is no excuse to delay projects unless its the client that changes things.

I have sufficient knowledge of the Internet to be able to specify our requirements. I work in the legal dept and draft up the contract and briefing ready. Our first website which took 6 months we were told by the developer that it would be complete within 2 months, which I consider to be reasonable and to allow for any hiccups. These are Content Management websites - not rocket science!

The transfer situation - not a lot of work. Our server is ready and we are paying for two servers on the go! I am most cheesed off! I can accept delays which is beyond control but cannot accept when Web Developers say they will do the work and not give any timescale, or when they give a deadline and exceed 2 months beyond it!

If you are a new Web Developer - be warned. Our Legal Dept has rejected a web developer's invoice for payment in full because they failed to complete within a reasonable time. One of our Directors was then harassed and this wiped the debt clean! Talking about £3000 here! Many businesses are experiencing this and they are now biting back!

You asked if I was a lawyer in the other forum - yes.
 
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J

JoyDivision

I am going to make it a company policy that all websites are done when we say they are. Even if it means I have work 24 hours a day it it will be delivered on time, if not 10% would be deducted per day its late or somthing.

I will make customer service the most important marketing tool.

There is simply no excuses for some of the stories I have heared, but at the same time I am glad becuase it gives me that edge.

If I could not handle the work I would simply inform the client of this.

One of the problem is that I have found in my research (I have been studying lots of portffolios) is the bigger companies don't seem to care less about the little guy wanting a good quality brochure website.
 
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MichaelG

Free Member
Sep 1, 2005
461
16
Berkshire
Apologies to all you guys - from all good web developers out there (including us here at Creotec).

Finding a good web development company is like finding a good builder (any one know a good reliable builder in Berkshire?). There are so many so called web developers and designers out there that really do not have a clue what is required to build a successful website or how to manage customer relationships.

What can we do to help?
 
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The trouble at the moment is there are far too many cowboys and the market is becoming saturated.

The disgruntled customer is now very commonplace unfortunately. We have picked up several from our local competitors.

We have a 100% customer satisfaction record for the sites we have produced and aim to keep it. If we can't resource it, we won't give you a quote - simple as.

If you'd like to discuss your needs, contact us at [email protected]
 
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DuaneJackson

Free Member
Jul 14, 2005
8,642
1,100
Brighton / London
You should have tried my company. You've used sites that we have built before (you're a trust mentor, right? I know you are a member at trustNetworkers)

Our contracts stipulate time frames and we have never delivered a project unreasonably over the contracted timeframe. You can opt to have 'time is of the essence' in the contract, but it'll cost more.

The problem is that we have a lot of people referring business to us so we have to be careful not to take on work we can't deliver when we say we will. It's v. hard to find staff that can develop to a level we and our clients expect.

Phone the Trust and ask them to reccomend someone, hopefully they'll point you in our direction.
 
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W

William Wilson

Maybe I should have added I have worked with many designers and developers, providing images and working together on client projects.

99% are top notch, it's the others that discredit the industry and are most likely the ones talked are talked about in forums.
 
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Richard Conyard

Free Member
Jul 2, 2005
630
1
Maidstone
Some of the quotes here are priceless:

I am going to make it a company policy that all websites are done when we say they are. Even if it means I have work 24 hours a day it it will be delivered on time, if not 10% would be deducted per day its late or somthing.
Joy, you've only just graduated. It's all good talking about providing fantastic customer service about a company in it's formative stages, but there is a point you have to get real.
1) Never plan to work 24 hours a day - you start to produce shoddy work after about 8 hours. And then everything slips.
2) Late from when? There are truly terrible designers / developers that let deadlines slide, but often it takes two to tango when projects slip and items are not signed off in agreed timescales (sometimes bad workmanship / sometimes just lack of communication), or more likely promised content doesn't arrive.
3) Hard work and good brains often get beaten by good organisation and efficient working practises.


Finding a good web development company is like finding a good builder (any one know a good reliable builder in Berkshire?).
Agreed. From the outside web development and building is somewhat of a black box. I guess the same as building one of the best methods of finding one is through referal, or to look at existing work. Or the old faithful, your website/building project looks fantastic, would you let me know who did it?

The trouble at the moment is there are far too many cowboys and the market is becoming saturated.
Tell me about it - see the websites for £350 thread.

We have a 100% customer satisfaction record for the sites we have produced and aim to keep it.
Hmmm, so is that 1 happy client, or 100, or 1000? And would your clients concur?

You know, I don't think I have worked at a company where we could say that every single client was constantly 100% happy. What I would say on the flip side is that when they were not we'd work hard to bring things around.

Come on you Web Developers, get your customer care skills in order!, unless you want to be painted with the same brush! By the way, if you are a web developer or some kind of technician looking to take up work from us please do not bother unless you can turnaround the work within a reasonable timeframe.

Hands On - you're a professional. Think seriously about what you paid and how much time that buys of your time? You also (as I know from accessify), know a fair bit about the web (you offer accessibility audits through your group) - so why did you let yourself get caught out this way?

I might sound rather flippant, but then I feel I have a right to be. It's the same old story time and again. I heard it when I first started doing web development professionally back in '96 and I hear it time and again now. If you choose to get some spotty oik to do your work for you then don't expect the same results as if you'd employeed a professional.

--
Now the productive bit...

Some things to look for in a prospective agency:

Strength of company financially
Are they growing?
Are they constantly being topped up by mum's and daddies money?
How solid are they?
Are they used to dealing with your size of project? - guessable from staff numbers (mainly wages in a dev company) : turnover

Levels of communication
Are you likely to be ignored or passed around the houses?
Will you have a dedicated point of contact in the company to handle any issues for you?
Do they sub-contract?
What level of communication are you getting whilst the project is proceeding?
Can you get on with the people in the company?

Portfolio
Do you like the work they have done?
Do they have experience in your field?
How does your project fit in with the experience they have?
Will they provide references, wil they arrange for you to get references from their portfolio of your choosing?

Professionalism
Do they operate under a solid set of T&C's?
What procedures do they work to?
What quality assurance mechanisms are in place?
What are the likely timeframes and how do they match up to project value ? - A good rule of thumb here, divide the project cost against day rate and you should have perhaps only half the time to live taken into account. A good company will counter for slippage from day one and hope to exceed the stated expectations rather than hope everything will go without a hitch. An agency that is very good will not mind telling you no on silly timescales - and if you accept that you'll get the better job for it.


Skills
What are the skill sets of the key personel that will be managing your project
How long have they been doing this?
How often do they stretch themselves?
Is this the key function of the business, or something they dabble in?

To be honest it wouldn't take long to get a rough idea on most of these with any company, and might just help you get what you want.
 
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J

JoyDivision

Some good comments there, as far as my ideals go I don't expect to be snowed under with work within my first year, it takes time to build a business.

However if I did't think I had the resouces I would take a project on.

To start with I will try and get the smaller good quality contracts. There is no point on me taking on a £10,000 project becuase there is no way I could deliver it on time.

The problem seems to be that some people do take on these contracts and just don't have the resources to deal with it.
 
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Richard Conyard

Free Member
Jul 2, 2005
630
1
Maidstone
Very true Joy - getting to a point where you can afford to turn work away is a very tough stage to reach for any web development company, or infact nearly every company.

It is all too tempting to dive in because of the pound signs that flash up.

I remember a project not too long after I left uni that my company went for. The primary business focus was as an ISP (number one for businesses in the UK for 6 solid months on some magazine rating thing, we were quite chuffed since we only had 3 technical people in the company!), seconded by IT support of our parent company, but also doing some design and development since that is where my history was.

So, we quoted for the project and the client was due to come in an discuss and get talked through the mock-up. At the time it was a huge project for us, and to win the project I did a couple of all nighters to turn the mock-up into a pseudo-working system with basic CMS. Sure enough we knocked their socks off, but from there is went down hill since we didn't have the resources to finish the project, no provision was made for managing the project and I found myself on that day sitting down with the cilent having been awake for two days solid trying to flesh out their final requirements to their now reduced budget.

I guess saving the 3+ months of hell trying to get the system up everyone ended up more or less content (if not happy). However I learnt my lesson from that one the hard way - now it's more important to do things correctly than to try and work via the rule of miracles!
 
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J

JoyDivision

I guess time management is very important even for smaller projects as well. When I was doing my final year project I had a noisty CPU fan with a faulty bearing so I decided to replace it, the only thing is becuase I was so stressed I failed to put the paste on correctly.

Two weeks later my PC was behaving very oddly and kept crashing, it did the exact same thing in Linux so I thought it would be the CPU, I swapped the hard drive made a new XP installation still the same problem.

I took the heatsink off and discovered the core was melting. I need a new CPU and Motherboard. You can imagine how stressful it was for my PC to fail at this point.

Luckily becuase I had planned to finish it two weeks early I managed to get it handed in 3 days before the deadline. If I didn't allow for anything like this I would not have got a 2:1 in the end. My project would have been incomplete.

So that taught me to always allow for little unplanned things to go wrong.
 
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daveashton

Free Member
Apr 14, 2004
692
1
Scotland
Just a quick point here about good or bad developers.

Of the websites we see ( remember we are a sales & marketing company) very few create

1: Credibility
2: A call to action
3: Are SEO ready

There are many things on a site that are needed even if people never look at them. i.e. legal’s, directors, about us etc along with reference sites (3 is just not enough), site map etc.

As for selling and a call to action that is v rare but what really annoys my team is great sites that meet 1 & 2 above and then they break every basic SEO rule in the book. This results in companies paying between 20-80% extra after the website is finished to get it ready so that a good SEO company can promote the site.

Note: we have found no reason for a website that people do not see it regardless of how good it looks.


As for timescales if any company can meet the above PM us. Our standards are high and we no longer pay any money up front, but we do get involved in between 2-8 new sites per month.
 
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C

clickprofits

Very true, it does seem rare to find a web design company who is strong in all 3 areas - an understanding of useability and the related issue of conversion combined with good seo skills.

A site needs to be easy to use and get as many of its visitors as possible to take a specific action (for a business this usually means converting those visitors into leads or sales) and also needs to attract as many pre-qualified visitors as possible through high search engine rankings for relevant keywords. The purpose of a web site should also be obvious within seconds of looking at it.

I would also welcome pm's from anyone who can demonstrate an understanding of all these issues and an ability to create high converting, high ranking, search engine friendly and user friendly websites. :)
 
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dave2005

Free Member
Sep 5, 2005
12
0
I know what you mean about SOME 'web developers,' it's a real mine field out there. But there are also some really brilliant web developers who produce fantastic websites at a reasonable price.

The biggest problem I find is that quite often the person who you have to deal with isn't actually a web designer, they are salespeople (sometimes independents not even employed directly by the web design company) who have been trained up for a few days to learn some techie buzz words and sent out to get as much business as they can.

The problem with that is that you end up telling someone who doesn't really understand the complexities of web design what you want, they then pass back what they think you meant to the design company, then the actual developer designs a site based on what the sales rep told them and not what you actually wanted. If you don't like the finished product, then they tell you that it's what you asked for and it'll cost more if you want to change it.

The advice I'd give anyone looking for a website is to ensure that the person you are dealling with is either a web developer or that the person who does the development will be directly available to you before and during the website building process (and confirm it by contacting them before you agree!!!) to make sure they know exactly what you are looking for. The terms 'internet consultant' or 'website advisor' always fill me with a deep sense of unease as these are the titles of sales people, not properly qualified web professionals.
 
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Richard Conyard

Free Member
Jul 2, 2005
630
1
Maidstone
Dave / Click,
I'd be interested to hear what you think about the SEO provision in our CMS?

Also (those that asked for PM's were), as a shameless plug anyone interested in serious web design might want to take a look at our sister company:
http://www.redantdesign.com

I know the design is getting tired,(it's been meaning to change all year) - but with that and the portfolio you should be able to see the type of clients and work that is produced.
 
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dave2005

Free Member
Sep 5, 2005
12
0
Hi Richard,

I like the site, it looks good. I'm afraid that I'm not qualified to evaluate the quality of your SEO because I'm a hardware/software engineer, not a web design expert.

I'm not a web developer but I enjoy using Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Flash etc because it gives me the chance to be creative, something rather lacking in my usual support/maintenance role. I don't do web sites for other people and I look on maintaining my own site as a hobby, not a career.

As an IT Contractor myself, I find that in technical businesses the terms consultant and advisor tend to be the reserve of salespeople and middlemen. I've nothing against these people, I have many friends who work in sales, but for the layman it really helps to deal direct with the supplier of the service you need, not a go between, particularly if the service you need has to be customised to your particular needs.

The red ant site appears to be actual web development, which I feel would offer a better service to the small business than an 'internet consultant' who reports back to a large American or Canadian consultancy firm who then outsource the development work to an India based developer. If you work in web design, I'm sure you know the sort of companies I'm referring to, and there has been a real explosion in the number of businesses that work this way in the past year or two. In my own opinion, it's a big step in the wrong direction for web design market.

I always recommend that anyone looking for a web site contact a web developer, and check that the website will be built in house by that developer and that you will have some input into the design process. I also think that looking at other websites that the developer has made is a good idea. It's important that the sites look good, but also that they look different from each other. When you get a company website, it should reflect how you see your company, or want others to see it. It should not be from a standard template that the web designer likes to build, and in my experience large internet consultancy companies don't offer the level of personalisation that I believe a business website really needs.

Looking through the red ant portfolio, if someone asked me if they appeared to be a suitable web design company to deal with, I'd probably say yes. I'd get them to confirm that the website would be built in house, not subcontracted out to another company, and to obtain references from the companies featured just to confirm that the service and outcome were satisfactory to them.
 
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Richard Conyard

Free Member
Jul 2, 2005
630
1
Maidstone
dave2005 said:
The red ant site appears to be actual web development, which I feel would offer a better service to the small business than an 'internet consultant' who reports back to a large American or Canadian consultancy firm who then outsource the development work to an India based developer.
I know what you're on about. We do get a fair bit of business from companies that have gone this route and got stung.

I'd get them to confirm that the website would be built in house, not subcontracted out to another company, and to obtain references from the companies featured just to confirm that the service and outcome were satisfactory to them.

That's easy, I can confirm that they don't sub-contract. We do occassionally act as sub-contractors for larger companies, which is a pity because that means the work we do for a fair few household names (UK utilities providers, multi-national media companies, etc.), can't appear in the portfolio :-(

edit: They / We etc. I am involved, but I'm not - clear as mud see ;-)
 
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dave2005 said:
I know what you mean about SOME 'web developers,' it's a real mine field out there. But there are also some really brilliant web developers who produce fantastic websites at a reasonable price.

The biggest problem I find is that quite often the person who you have to deal with isn't actually a web designer, they are salespeople (sometimes independents not even employed directly by the web design company) who have been trained up for a few days to learn some techie buzz words and sent out to get as much business as they can.

The problem with that is that you end up telling someone who doesn't really understand the complexities of web design what you want, they then pass back what they think you meant to the design company, then the actual developer designs a site based on what the sales rep told them and not what you actually wanted. If you don't like the finished product, then they tell you that it's what you asked for and it'll cost more if you want to change it.

This is a symptom of the problem of market saturation. Most small business are of the opinion that paying £100 for a website is expensive. Medium sized business might be prepared pay around £300-£400.

Given this kind of money, is it surprising that technically knowledgeable sales staff are few and far between?

Every sales meeting we attend has at least one web design engineer present, but it seems we are the exception rather than the rule. I think the point is you get what you pay for. Everyone has to make a living, including sales staff.
 
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Do you want the easy option?...............Do it yourself.

I spent moths trying to get someone to a) give me a decent price and b) do it within a month and not one of them could oblidge. In the end I did it myself. I've been up and running two months now and if I had costed my development at £20 an hour I've already made my money back 3 times.
 
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J

JoyDivision

clairemackaness said:
Do you want the easy option?...............Do it yourself.

I spent moths trying to get someone to a) give me a decent price and b) do it within a month and not one of them could oblidge. In the end I did it myself. I've been up and running two months now and if I had costed my development at £20 an hour I've already made my money back 3 times.

Without being offensive though the website does not look professional it has some fundemental problems with it. If you had a professional website imagine how much more business you could have got.

There are reasons it takes a long time do produce a good website, although I am surprised none of them could do it with in a month. As for a price well professional websites do cost a lot of money as there is an awful lot involved. Its not a simple case of using dreamweaver and hoping for the best.
 
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lauracox200

Free Member
Oct 7, 2005
1
0
I have found a great web designer, they are reliable and my website looks great. It will be up soon.

They are also a lot cheaper than 7 other companies I tried who gave me much the same problem you was having.

If you want I can give you telephone number and email address of the head designer who is responsible for my website. Just let me know if you want it.
 
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