Web Design Customer

[sanjiv]

Hi,

I am a web design freelancer. Did one website for a customer and he owes me money since August.

Emailed him to say the site will be taken down today if I do not have proof of payment by today. Is it fair for me to take down the site and email (basically change the nameservers) ?

I worked to his credit terms of payment after completion because I have done websites for him before.

Thanks
Sanjiv

 

[FreelanceSoftwareDeveloper]

Have you had any response from the person since the site was completed, even if its just a thank you or some kind of acknowledgement that they accept the site is complete?

Are there any disputes about outstanding issues?

It's fair to take it down if payment hasn't been received on time, I would give them a few days final notice.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

In the past, when i designed (many years ago) I faced this problem twice. I got the guy on the phone and asked him to go to his site. I then, while he was on, put up a holding page that simply said "sorry but this page is no longer available, removed by the designer" . They normally shouted an balled that I had no right etc then I immediately put the proper page back, and told them they had 24 hours to pay me.

Worked every time

Oh but if they have ftp access etc, then change the password immediately to stop them grabbing the site.

 

[sanjiv]

Emailed them a few days ago. There are no disputes about the website. He said payment was sent last week.

Few emails:

7/10/2010

Hi. 1,the reason we have found someone else to manage all our sites inc the 4 new ones is your unprofessional way you work. 2,your money £320 was paid one week Tuesday,so 9 days ago. 3,If my site or Email every stopped working I will sue you and your family in the high court. 4,Don't piss me off today as I have done as requested. Thanks!

24/9/10

Hiya. I'm abroad at the mo,on Wednesday I saw a payment had left our business account. Cheers

18/9/10

No worries, will be paid on Monday. Can you send me over the setting again please for the I phone for Email. Thanks.

 

[cmcp]

What does your agreement say Sanjiv?

Upshot - get an agreement.

 

[sanjiv]

What does your agreement say Sanjiv?

Upshot - get an agreement.

I don't have a formal agreement.

Agreement by email is 30 days after completion. Been well over 30 days.

 

[FreelanceSoftwareDeveloper]

If they are saying the payment has been made and you are saying you haven't received it that's a bit different, you need to try to establish what's happened with the payment, is there a typo somewhere?

I looked silly a few weeks ago when I phoned Orange to ask why they weren't showing payment as recieved for the previous months bill, they did a bit of digging and found I had a typo in the reference number :redface:

I wouldn't take the site down, simply ask that they send confirmation of the payment details.

 

[sanjiv]

If they are saying the payment has been made and you are saying you haven't received it that's a bit different, you need to try to establish what's happened with the payment, is there a typo somewhere?

I looked silly a few weeks ago when I phoned Orange to ask why they weren't showing payment as recieved for the previous months bill, they did a bit of digging and found I had a typo in the reference number :redface:

I wouldn't take the site down, simply ask that they send confirmation of the payment details.

Have asked for confirmation several times.
Also had this email a minute ago:

You may be able to do that,but what you CAN'T do is take it down,nor block Emails. As I say your payment was made...See below.. I DON'T lie ! Website Designed SEO
**-**-**
********
2010/09/28 Hef446tdgt763 at 13.09

All I do is tell you what I am told by the person who makes our payments,I have sent you what they sent me last week.

All the dates don't match up. First its wed, then tues 9 days ago.

 

[sanjiv]

This site was actually to replace the old website. Should I then just take the site I have done down and put the old one back or just leave it blank. Just email the files for the old site and say do it yourself?

 

[cmcp]

Have they paid you any money?

If not, return it to the way it was and abort.

Silly lesson I'm afraid.

 

[sanjiv]

Have they paid you any money?

If not, return it to the way it was and abort.

Silly lesson I'm afraid.

Thanks for the advice. I think that might be what I am going to have to do.

 

[JDX_John]

Change the passwords but leave it up and send a formal email "despite your statements payment was sent, I have not received it. Unless I hear from someone immediately to rectify this problem I will be forced to revert to the old site until payment is provably sent". Always warn before taking action, I'd say.

 

[sanjiv]

Change the passwords but leave it up and send a formal email "despite your statements payment was sent, I have not received it. Unless I hear from someone immediately to rectify this problem I will be forced to revert to the old site until payment is provably sent". Always warn before taking action, I'd say.

Thanks.

I have warned last week that action will be taken today and also emailed today. They have replied and acknowledged what I will be doing at 4 o'clock.

They don't seem to care so I don't think payment has been sent.

 

[cmcp]

To be fair, they probably don't care. I had the same problem with a client about 3 years ago. The work kept coming in, as did the excuses at the end of the month.

The reality was my £6k bill they ran up was just a drop in the ocean to them. By not sticking to my guns and turning them off at the first sign of non-payment, they pushed as hard as I could go.

Luckily I had a contract which I referred to by paragraph number which got me paid every time I forced it.

 

[akirk]

Core to this discussion is that you need to have an agreement in place.
Then you need to be clear with a client regarding payment mechanism / timetable
You need to be clear about consequences
You need to be dispassionate - always write in the 3rd person - and state clearly what will happen at elast twice, then do it...

i.e. it is a process. - if someone contracts you to do the work, then they need to pay you. If they don't you follow your process and simply take them to the Small Claims Court if necessary. You will of course already have their correspondence agreeing the process etc. so all you will need to do is show:
- agreement to process (aka Ts&Cs)
- agreement to price
- demonstrate that you have done what was specced (ideally signed off - most difficult bit to show)

simply file a claim online, including interest / costs / etc. sit back and watch the cheques roll in.

Alasdair

 

[MartCactus]

"Hi. 1,the reason we have found someone else to manage all our sites inc the 4 new ones is your unprofessional way you work. 2,your money £320 was paid one week Tuesday,so 9 days ago. 3,If my site or Email every stopped working I will sue you and your family in the high court. 4,Don't piss me off today as I have done as requested. Thanks! "

My first impression is that their mails to you don't sound very professional. That kind of thing doesn't look good in court.

If I genuinely believe I've paid a bill, and the supplier says I haven't, I don't respond like that. I become concerned that I might have made the payment incorrectly, or the bank might have made a mistake... I search for evidence that I've paid correctly and send it to the client. The fact that he hasn't done this points to me that he's trying it on.

Are you hosting the website?

If you are then I don't see a problem with closing it for non payment. But you really should have terms and conditions that cover this. We provide that an invoice should be paid in 21 days - if it then goes 30 days overdue we have the right to suspend services.

The suggestion that he'll sue you in high court is laughable. That takes serious money - I don't see that happening over a small website contract!

But I wouldn't replace it with anything else (eg "suspended due to non payment"). Though we did have a client who repeatedly tried to get us to start work on a new site with no deposit. He kept saying he'd send payment to get us to start, but we'd wait and it wouldn't turn up. Eventually he sent us a cheque. We waited (just didn't trust him), it bounced. So we uploaded a large animated picture of Robert Maxwell on a space hopper (bouncing Czech - geddit?). That was 10 years+ ago - not sure I'd do that these days, as I've grown up a bit.

 

[sanjiv]

If I use the online small claims courts, how does it work exactly? Anyone used it before?

I am not hosting the website.

In previous emails, he has boasted that after starting the company about 8 months ago, when making a few hundred pounds a week, he is now doing £50k per week. Not sure if I believe that otherwise there wouldn't be a dispute over £320.

 

[Astaroth]

Based on the wording of the emails, is the client based in the UK?

The online claim process is straightforward if your both UK based. You enter the details online of whats happened, what you hold them responsible for and how much. They then receive a letter with a form to repond to. If they either dont respond in time or respond saying they're not contesting it then judgement is made in your favour. If they lodge a defence (ie say the allegations or amount are wrong) then you get the choice to progress to court or not. The court will normally be the county court local to the defendant.

 

[sanjiv]

Just had an email showing a copy and paste of the bank statement.

Payment is being made to:
Website Designed SEO

When it should be in capitals on the bank statement (all other payments are and they are on mine too) and also the internet banking should trim it to WEBSITE DESIGNED SE because the characters are too long. Also balances on the right hand side don't match up.

This is getting to a joke now. Going to stop wasting time with this guy.

 

[altwebdesign]

i see your situation especially as you have worked with them before, what you need to remember as the client said is HE DOSEN'T LIE!!
As you can clearly see your payment was sent out 9 days, then wednesday and then will be sent out monday, so he clearly dosent lie!

I'd take the site down, maybe even re-vert it back to the old site?

Leave his email account set up so you arent causing him any inconvenience after all two wrongs don't make a right, you will of behaved with proffesionalism and did your best, if he hasnt made a payment within a week or so, i guess you need to start thinknig about writing it off, I wouldnt "HIJACK" the domain though!

 

[sanjiv]

i see your situation especially as you have worked with them before, what you need to remember as the client said is HE DOSEN'T LIE!!
As you can clearly see your payment was sent out 9 days, then wednesday and then will be sent out monday, so he clearly dosent lie!

I'd take the site down, maybe even re-vert it back to the old site?

Leave his email account set up so you arent causing him any inconvenience after all two wrongs don't make a right, you will of behaved with proffesionalism and did your best, if he hasnt made a payment within a week or so, i guess you need to start thinknig about writing it off, I wouldnt "HIJACK" the domain though!

Not going to take email down.

Also If I thought I had done something wrong I would go to the control panel and change all the users/passwords etc. As I have said a dozen times I have NOT bullshitted,paid as promised,I have spoke to tele banking and they have reveresed the payment as the account name was not the same as yours,so in a way it is our fault,so sorry for that.I have asked them to re make the payment which will be complted within 3 working days.

Just had that. Told him to send it via CHAPS so that I have payment by the end of the day. Up to him now.

 

[Rainbow Chasers']

I would do a front page with a large banner across stating that is is awaiting payment, or is non accessible due to account being frozen or similar.

It will make him listen when half the world hears that he won't pay his bills...ie can't be trusted!

 

[sanjiv]

Website has been taken down now. Put a notice up saying:
Temporarily suspended

 

[sanjiv]

I have a PayPal premier account. The customer sent me 1p and I refunded it and asked why.

Got this email:

Just been speaking to **staff name**,he sent it not me as he wanted your address as I told him the crack......He gets wound up more than me ! Is everything calm now??

 

[sanjiv]

Will they be able to see my address?

 

[Faevilangel]

Will they be able to see my address?

Yup, as soon as a payment is made, they will be shown your details as on paypal.

 

[sanjiv]

Yup, as soon as a payment is made, they will be shown your details as on paypal.

I just sent them 1p back and cant see their address?
Are you 100% sure that they can see my address.

Thanks

 

[akirk]

Will they be able to see my address?

not exactly difficult to find
a couple of minutes on Google and I could write your bio...
from schooling to family, linked companies / home address / etc. etc.
do you own those cars you use as avatars? very nice!

Alasdair

 

[sanjiv]

No he hasn't got my address. Just gave me the first part of my postcode. Completely wrong.

 

[Faevilangel]

No he hasn't got my address. Just gave me the first part of my postcode. Completely wrong.

Every time I have sent money, I have been able to see their address

Don't use paypal that often so may have changed

 

[Esk247]

I dont use paypal for formal business as people can just claim money back for no reason what so ever.

You're in a bit of a mess now because you didn't have a contract set up with a clear set of 'what you will do for this amount of payment/deposit etc'.

Don't worry though, all of us web designers have been here before, I was ripped off for £300 a few years ago by someone known very well locally, he kept in email contact every day, telephoned about updates etc and alterations, then when i sent the invoice out..nothing..dead..no more contact, telephone number changed, emails ignored even though i knew he was reading them.

is the hosting with yourself? if so he only has 12 months anyway before everything runs out and its up to you whether you deal with him again.

 

[TheLittleDesignShop]

sanjiv, I have a standard email I send to all my late payers... (in fact I sent one today):

Hi xxx

Invoice xxx is still outstanding having been invoiced x/x/x.
It will be x months outstanding on x/x/x.
If it is not paid before x/x/x it will be transferred to my Debt Recovery Agency (as per standard T&C's) who will charge in excess of £700 to reclaim the debt. I obviously do not wish to increase the amount owed from £xxx to over £xxx so can I ask that payment is made as soon as possible.

With thanks

May be of some use in this case, the threat of adding £700 to the debt usually gets their attention enough to ensure payment is immediate. I can give you the details of the debt recovery company (via pm) should you wish to contact them, they claim to pay you what is outstanding immediately then chase the client for the outstanding amount -plus costs - and they do the small claims courts etc. Not sure how it will work if you aren't both UK based though.

Hope that helps.

 

[Esk247]

it really does my head in when people dont see a reason to pay someone for work done..it's like trying to leave Tesco with a Breville and not paying for it..what happens? you get rugby tackled at the door by security man Dave

 

[sanjiv]

He has just told me that his accounts dept. told him it was paid; after the false bank statement he sent me. He also said he doesn't really care because the company is being sold soon. Been called childish and threatened. Eventful day .

He knows that he won't get another website for £300. I only charged such little amount because I did their last website and he liked it when it was finished but his customer feedback didn't like it.

 

[Christine Hough]

Hi,
Is it fair for me to take down the site and email (basically change the nameservers) ?

Thanks
Sanjiv

I have a lot of sympathy for you, but I afraid that even if fair it is not legal ... If I understand it right, you cannot pursue your claim by damaging the goods , 'non-derogation of grant' I think is the legal term.

If you want your money it may be better to use another means such as the small claims court. If you had taken it down and then went to court it would go against you I think.

I have not read all the thread so hope I am not just repeating what others have said.
Best with it.

 

[sanjiv]

Thanks. Basically what I have done is revoke the service I gave which is the website. Just taken it down.

The terms and conditions on the invoice are that the product will be revoked after 30 days of late payment. The invoice was given to the client before work commenced.

 

[Esk247]

Don't let this take over from your other work though, it's just another of those who think it's fine to rip someone off.

This weekend, be working on a new contract system, whereby the person has to sign before the work goes live etc. Put in some components that will make it easier for you to demand payment and make sure that you have a signature on some lovely documents, they get a copy, you get a copy, if all goes belly up you've got the facts to support your claim and you don't need to get in to a petty squabble.

I bet this guy wouldn't send the same type of emails to BT if he hadn't paid his bill and even if he did they'd send the same response each time e.g. Reminder of Late Payment, details enclosed.

 

[Rainbow Chasers']

Wise words from Esk there - utilise your time, learn from it and it will not be wasted.

Don't use paypal either......i know lots of people have paypal accounts, but they hold payment for 21 days anyway and give the person back their money without so much as a valid reason to!

 

[silvermusic]

My non-business head says redirect the web site to a porn site.

My business head says take the lot down, web and email.

 

[MASSEY]

Emailed them a few days ago. There are no disputes about the website. He said payment was sent last week.

Few emails:

7/10/2010
24/9/10
18/9/10

You should just restore the original and leave it. Weather you have a contract or not i think they are pretty irrelevent they arent really worth the paper they are printed on in these types of cases.

If you had a bit more of a portfolio i would imagine you could get half the payment up front and half on completion as a genral payment structure in future.

Lots of designers i see on forums offer services but have examples of work that don't look that great or they have hardly any examples of work. You need to instill confidence in the buyer, maybe in this instance he was not very impressed.