Web design company dispute.. any ideas?

[Creative-Soup]

A friend of mine got a design company to do their website for their builders business. My friend was quoted £3,000 (they have already paid 1500) and got essentially a wordpress site which was skinned, he was told it was the best thing for SEO (is wordpress really better than a hand coded site for SEO?).

The crux of the matter, is it was all agreed verbally and nothing was signed there were no contract or terms and conditions. Now he came to me as there were some problems with the site.

1) They are builders in Milton Keynes Bucks... yet all their title tags and description kept saying Milton Keynes Bedfordshire.
2) Numerous spelling mistakes in h1 and h2
3) The site was just open on their domain and as it took quite a long time it has all been indexed by google with incorrect data and keywords
4) The site does not validate and they claim that validation is completely irrelevant
5) The site doesnt look quite right in IE6, they argue that because google are dropping IE6 it does not matter anymore


Now, they have not signed anything, as far as i know its all been agreed over the phone, i have always had a contract and agreement forms so ive never had any trouble so i am not in the position to advise. They have currently paid £1500, but they are now going to small claims court saying that the website is not up to standard.

The web design company have also taken a week to reply to their emails.

Do the builders have a case to get some of their money back or not have to pay the remaining 1500? I honestly have no idea as ive never had a problem with any of my clients legally.

How would a small claims court look at this?

Thanks in advance for replies!

Paul

 

[fisicx]

There's another thread for someone else with exactly the same problem: http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=147827

It's going to be very difficult for your friend to claim their money back as there is no agreement as to what will be delivered.

Spelling mistakes happen and validfation is irrelevant but the IE6 thing is lame excuse. Page titles can be fixed in seconds as can the other issues. If the site can be fixed will you friend cough up the other £1500?

The other problem is that you cannot force the designer to do anything. All you can do is be nice and hope. Even the courts can't force then to do the work.

And remember, if they are doing the hosting as well then they may own the whole site lock, stock and barrel. Check the registration details.

 

[Creative-Soup]

Thanks for your reply... would you then think it would be good advice to ask a settlement of 1500 then then get the site re-done elsewhere?

I think that the web design company are going to be sending the bill to a debt collectors.

I think the web design company are capable of fixing the problems however the builder says he wants to get shot of them because they never reply to his emails and do not explain themselves clearly over the phone.

Its essentially a breakdown in a business relationship.

My thoughts would be to say 'keep the deposit, ill go elsewhere' and hope they dont persue it.

I would have thought a contract by both parties is essential to either side having more weight legally than the other?

 

[fisicx]

Difficult to say (not being as lawyer) but since the development company has no written agreement what authority would the debt collector have to collect, your client isn't in breach of anything!

I'd put money on the work being out source to an asian company which is why there is so much difficulty getting the changes/fixes sorted.

And since since it is wordpress all you mate has paid for is the theme (everything else is free) - but I think you already know this.

As you suggest it might be best to just walk away, just galling to have handed over so much for nothing.

 

[oldeagleeye]

In law a verbal contract is just as valid as a written one. Suggest that you come to an agreement making it clear that if they sue you friend will make a counter claim.

 

[Creative-Soup]

you make a few good points there.

I dont think the work was outsourced as such, they are a reputable company i think but perhaps didnt explain things to my friend in layman terms which got him frustrated.

When he asked me to look at it i was a bit shocked he paid £3000 for a skinned wordpress site with nothing special.

Maybe i am undercharging when i freelance!

I guess they did provide him with a site, but it wasnt up to the standard he expected.

Google has already indexed all the incorrect keywords and mistakes which were very schoolboy. A site shouldnt have been handed over as finished work with such glaring obvious errors.

I do think mis-communication is a big factor too, and not having a written agreement is such a pain, i guess they cant instruct debt collectors if there is no agreement to breach.

Ill advise him to contact someone legal and see what they say.

Thanks again though.

 

[Creative-Soup]

In law a verbal contract is just as valid as a written one. Suggest that you come to an agreement making it clear that if they sue you friend will make a counter claim.

Wow didnt know that. Thats really annoying as someone could do a rubbish website and then say.. "i didnt say it would be good!"

I would deem the website he got is not complete and fit for purpose so maybe he has a chance.

 

[LeeatMerlin]

£3000 is a lot for what sounds to be effectivley a wordpress site. theres similar posts on here with people with the same problem. My advice for them and for you is to email trading standards with their email in the CC so they know you have sent it and start an investigation. however i stress that that would'nt be my first point of call, i'd try and be reasonable with the designers because the errors you stated are relativley simple to fix and come to some agreement. If not, i'd suggest the trading standards route.

A few years ago i had some trouble with a large broadband company who were billing me for broadband that i never received, after months of trouble and threats of debt collectors and CCJ's i decided to email trading standards and also CC'd in broadband company and the head of their company. At which point they backed down and wrote the debt off. So it does work sometimes. good luck!

Lee

Merlin Software Ltd
merlinsoft .co.uk

 

[Faevilangel]

£3000 for a skinned wordpress theme? For that sort of cash, you could have got a custom cms built (but not as many features as wp).

I know with me, and the few developers I know, I always get a full written brief of what the client wants, I then build the content and a design. I then give the client access to view the site before I build it.

Seems there are too many cowboys, was this a ltd company? or a bedroom designer?

 

[saxondale]

some "friend" ............... thats all I`m saying

 

[Creative-Soup]

£3000 for a skinned wordpress theme? For that sort of cash, you could have got a custom cms built (but not as many features as wp).

I know with me, and the few developers I know, I always get a full written brief of what the client wants, I then build the content and a design. I then give the client access to view the site before I build it.

Seems there are too many cowboys, was this a ltd company? or a bedroom designer?

It was a limited company with a large office in oxford! It was extremely over priced. I read a couple of their emails last night from their MD and they came across as very arrogant.

Granted my mates email to them was not the most flowery email but after he had tried to ask them and they didnt reply or acknowledge they were looking into it, i think he got fed up.

ive only ever used wordpress for blogs, not as a full CMS, but apparently its the in thing these days for SEO according to them.

 

[Creative-Soup]

some "friend" ............... thats all I`m saying

Hah! I see what you were thinking about that, but sorry to disappoint its actually a facebook friend who got burnt who asked me what i thought.

 

[Faevilangel]

It was a limited company with a large office in oxford! It was extremely over priced. I read a couple of their emails last night from their MD and they came across as very arrogant.

Granted my mates email to them was not the most flowery email but after he had tried to ask them and they didnt reply or acknowledge they were looking into it, i think he got fed up.

ive only ever used wordpress for blogs, not as a full CMS, but apparently its the in thing these days for SEO according to them.

I use wordpress as my recommended cms, but that's it, a recommendation... In the end the client may not like it so I give them a few cms' to test.

That is way overpriced for a skinned wp theme, I normally charge £300 (ish) so is there work 10x better than mine?

I would just get your friend to send an e-mail stating that the website isn't as expected e.g. quality etc and then make a comprimise, they fix the issues he has and he will send the final payment. If not then he will be getting legal advice. Should scare them a little

 

[Rainbow Chasers']

This is such a common thing with website disputes - i have been there too, so not faultless! I am now converted and wisened up - friends or not.

If you buy a website it comes with a contract - look at it like a car, you wouldn't buy it without a log book!

 

[fisicx]

I would deem the website he got is not complete and fit for purpose so maybe he has a chance.

Fit for purpose is difficult to prove. Did you friend provide all the content, page titles and images? If so then you can show that the copy and paste wasn't done well. If the developers did it on their own then all your friend needs to do is a bit of editing.

Of course, you will need all the logins to do this and I bet the developers haven't handed these over!

Even the IE6 problem can be easily fixed so the site 99% fit for purpose in that is displays most of the required data.

Not saying you shouldn't put in a claim, I'm just doing my awkward bloke bit.

 

[Creative-Soup]

Fit for purpose is difficult to prove. Did you friend provide all the content, page titles and images? If so then you can show that the copy and paste wasn't done well. If the developers did it on their own then all your friend needs to do is a bit of editing.

Of course, you will need all the logins to do this and I bet the developers haven't handed these over!

Even the IE6 problem can be easily fixed so the site 99% fit for purpose in that is displays most of the required data.

Not saying you shouldn't put in a claim, I'm just doing my awkward bloke bit.

I dont know if he gave them all the content, that can be changed im sure by him and also them, i think they would do that.

I think what it boils down to is that hes paid way over the odds for something that works but is a bit shoddy and he wants to see if he can get his money back or avoid paying the full balance and use the money elsewhere to get it done how we wants it.

I am suprised they didnt give him anything to sign... i have a 12 page agreement for my freelance projects covering everything, when i told him to look at the t&cs he said they dont have any.

It does some suprising that people have said a agreement does matter as verbal counts as a contract. Thats worth noting for future things. Must be careful with my own projects.