Web Design: Clients thinking there going to create the next Facebook or Yell

[Ben Anderson]

Just wondering if anyone else who works in web design gets quite a few calls with clients wanting to create the next Yell.com or something of a £30 per month budget or something like that.

Just wondering how you deal with them? Do you just out-price them or refuse the work (as there probably going to be a nightmare client).

 

[Ben Anderson]

'for a'

 

[ryedale]

Many times over the last 15 years

I usually just give them an ballpark figure as to what it would cost before spending any time on writing up proposals

5 or 6 figure quotes usually put an end to it.

 

[fisicx]

Refuse the work. It's not even worth having the conversation.

Or do as @ryedale suggest and ask for £5K up front to just put a proposal together.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'm not in web design, but one of the reasons I re-focused my business and withdrew from Start Up Loans was the relentless drip of dreamers who thought they could create something 'better than Facebook' with a £5K loan

Make them do the work before you put effort in - and get cash up front. That usually puts a stop to it

 

[Alan]

Also they normally come to you with an NDA to protect their wonderfully (not) unique idea.

 

[Ben Anderson]

Also they normally come to you with an NDA to protect their wonderfully (not) unique idea.

Oh yes, the classic NDA! or when speaking on the phone they give you a massively long story about there business idea and how I must keep this a 'secret'. Usually ends up being something that's been done before. I wonder how some people think these so-called 'millionaire ideas' will every turn into reality. You wouldn't have thought that 40-year-old adults, could live in that mindset (I find it baffling!).

 

[Ben Anderson]

^ *ever*

 

[The Byre]

You wouldn't have thought that 40-year-old adults, could live in that mindset (I find it baffling!).

They are everywhere!

A recording studio got the following telephone call in 2009, which was recorded and transcribed for posterity -

(BTW, M is the Studio Manager.)

Ring! Ring!

M: Hello!

Caller (with Glaswegian nasal accent) Is this like a recording studio, an' that?

M: Yes.

Caller: You are a recording studio, then?

M: Yes, how can we help you?

Caller: Could you give me some advice. I am a rapper, you know, like Eminem and I need to get in touch with the right people and I was thinking that maybe you would know what I should do next.

M: Do you perform live?

Caller: Aye, but nobody comes. I tell them an' that, but they don't turn up. Last week I told all me mates and they said that they would come, so I set a time an' a date an' that, but they never turned up.

M: Where did you hold the gig?

Caller: In a field.

M: Um, er, was this at a festival?

Caller: No, it was just a field.

M: Did you have a sound system?

Caller: What d'ya mean?

M: Um, well, microphones, speakers and backing tracks, or perhaps a DJ on the 'wheels of steel.'

Caller: No, it was just me in the field. I told them all to come, but they did ne want to. They did ne turn up and they said it was too cold and it were raining. That's f**king ignorant, no turning up, just 'cause it's raining!

M: What a pity.

Caller: Aye, but I'm dead good. I'm better than that Eminem. You see, he's just talented, but I'm a f**king genius. You can give me any word out there, an' I can find a word what rhymes with it. I even found a rhyme for 'orange' - can you beat that! I want to take my rap to a higher plain. I believe that I can take rap to mean much more than any other human being. I'm that talented!

M: So what do you want to do with your rap music?

Caller: You see, it's my ambition to to go head-to-head with the best in the World. I believe, if I was to go against David Cameron and Tony Blair and them, I'd come out tops. I'm that f**king good!

Me: Do you have anybody that is working with you?

Caller: I'm a lyricist, what do I need other people for?

M: Well, you mentioned Eminem just now and he works with managers, producers, musicians, engineers and so on. There's a whole army of people involved in putting on a concert or even making a recording.

Caller: You don't understand. I am the most gifted person in all of creation. I don't need all those other people. I'm f**king amazing!

M: Yes, but music is a bit like building a house. You still need architects, engineers, plumbers, brickies, chippies, roofers, JCB drivers and all sorts of other people to work with you.

Caller: I'm also a builder. I can build you a house all on my own. I don't need all those other people. Now d'you understand what I mean when I say that I am the most gifted person in all of creation?

M: Well . . .

Caller: What I need is someone who can take my genius and cut it up and that, so that people get what I am saying. Then I can go up against David Cameron and people will believe in me and begin to follow me.

M: Follow . . . ?

Caller: Aye. You see, I'm the Messiah. I have been set down on this Earth by God to show people the way and I have to do this with rap.

M: Er, and how can we help you?

Caller: You have to do whatever they did with Eminem. I mean, how did he get started?

M: He got together with a producer called Doctor Dre.

Caller: Great! Now we're getting somewhere! So all I've got to do is call this doctor and he'll set me straight.

M: I think there was a wee bit more to it than . . .

Caller: So give me his telephone number, so I can call this doctor!

M: I don't have his number.

Caller: What d'ya mean, you don't have his number! Where does he f**king stay?

M: He lives and works in Los Angeles.

Caller: Oh, I see. Well, in that case, you'll have to call him for me.

M: I think it would be better coming from you.

Caller: Well, give me his number then!

M: I don't have his number. You'll just have to look at his website to get hold of his management and they'll take your call.

Caller: When he hears I'm the Messiah, you'll want to be talking to me. So what's the number for his manager?

M: I don't know. You'll just have to find that out for yourself.

Caller: Listen! I'm the f**king Messiah, you c**t!

At this point, 'M' decided to hang up.

 

[Caledonian TV]

...Yeah; I think I had that guy in a couple of classes at Stow.

 

[lesliedocherty]

Remember the feeling of dread when my daughter told me she was quitting her job to do a music production course at Stow, that was 2 years well spent, not.

 

[Caledonian TV]

Remember the feeling of dread when my daughter told me she was quitting her job to do a music production course at Stow, that was 2 years well spent, not.

Yeah. I was actually based in that same department, teaching TV production.

...Some do well enough out of it. But it's a very tough business.

I think Event Management was probably the better bet in terms of courses that might actually get you a job, but! Overall, although there were some good people there, it's not somewhere I'd have sent my own kid. - Let's just say there is a good reason why I eventually told then to shove their job and walked; I like being able to look myself in the eye of a morning.

 

[The Byre]

Remember the feeling of dread when my daughter told me she was quitting her job to do a music production course at Stow, that was 2 years well spent, not.

There are about 50 proper commercial recording studios in the UK, another 100 or so audio post-production rooms and possibly 50 private studios belonging to wealthy rock stars that have a limited staff. Most of the work is done by freelancers. Broadcasters are just not employing audio professionals in the numbers that they used to and run-of-the-mill jobs are done by 'production assistants' who do a bit of everything. So in reality, there are something like 50-to-100 pure audio jobs going in any one year throughout the film, TV, recording, broadcast and live sound fields.

That tiny number of openings is targeted by about 3,000 graduates of various colleges and universities each and every year. Over 130 universities offer music production courses - add to that the large number of (mostly bogus) private courses (what I call 'The Wysuckie College for the Totally Dumb) like the SAE and similar courses run by the partnership of Dewie, Cheatem & Howe and you begin to see just how hopeless it is for all but the very, very best.

There is one course and one course only, that will get you a decent career going in music production in the UK and that is the Tonmeister course at Surrey.

Of course, like any decent vocational training, the entry requirements are very high. Three academic A-Levels at grade A, to include physics and the ability to play two instruments, one at grade seven or above and of course the ability to read music. Some 100 hopefuls manage to have those qualities each year, but following a rigorous interview and audition, only some 25-30 are accepted. The profs are looking for innate ability, 'lateral thinking' (i.e. a certain level of wacky eccentricity!) and a very high IQ.

You can get a career in theatre sound production, after attending LIPA, but they only take students who have already got a healthy body of work to show.

Live sound (i.e. touring shows) is really a question of getting in at the ground floor as a roadie or similar and then doing additional courses in live sound production at somewhere like Britannia Row's school for live sound in Wandsworth.

Everybody else, it is a case of a tiny minority get sort of lucky, most do not. A golden ticket to shelf-stacking at Tesco!

Film and TV - National Film and Television School seems to fulfil a similar role to the Tonmeister course at Surrey, except that many people enter the industry from left-field - i.e. art, architecture, CGI, design and graphics, or just pick up a camera and get on with things. Here, a killer show-reel is EVERYTHING! A good grade from the NFTS may get your show-reel looked at (along with everyone else's) but the standard of student show reels today from the better film schools is breathtakingly high.

 

[Caledonian TV]

Actually Film and TV - as in cinema and broadcast - have been very much the minority of all video production since the early 90s; although they're the noisiest barrels. - That was one of the first 'disappointments' I'd give to my students; you'll most likely wind up doing corporates!

Stow was (it doesn't exist any more) an F.E. college - not a University, and really the main idea there is that successful students articulate to a university course; you won't get far with just an HND and no industry experience, and really, industry derives its intake from the Graduate pool...

It had a reputation because we had been 'first past the post' with Belle and Sebastian, Snow Patrol (who were 'Polar Bear' at the time) and Biffy Clyro... Other acts that 'got work' include the likes of Wooden Box, and the State Broadcasters and a few others. Teaching-wise we had people like Alan Rankine (the Associates) Stuart Wood (Bay City Rollers), Mick Slavin (Deacon Blue) - Douglas McIntyre of Creeping Bent Records and Ken McCluskey of The Bluebells... So, there was real industry experience there, but much stronger on the management side IMHO. But of course, there was a similar/competing setup running at Springburn (North Glasgow) College... As well as long-standing activity at Cardonald, James Watt, Stevenson College through in Edinburgh etc... Quite a glut!

Sound isn't my thing - and it's not a side of the A/V industry I can really comment authoritatively on. But going into it with the notion that you'll be working in a 'big recording studio' or a major venue isn't going to buy a loaf and some butter... The same is true in any segment of the Creative Industries. Events happen, music gets made, pictures get taken, and people make livings doing that. But very few work in what you might call 'high profile' areas.

 

[The Byre]

really the main idea there is that successful students articulate to a university course; you won't get far with just an HND and no industry experience, and really, industry derives its intake from the Graduate pool...

Unfortunately, university graduates are, in the main, fairly useless.

One needs someone who can do it (whatever IT might happen to be!) That means they can configure a PC, trouble-shoot a network, author a DVD or BR disk, mic-up a studio, run the audio desk, use a switcher, do basic floor work and they are familiar with the various EBU standards and can produce a file in accordance with a tech sheet.

What the UK TV and film industry needs, is the equivalent of the German 'Mediengestalter Bild und Ton' (production assistant, picture and sound). That is a three-year apprenticeship that, because companies in Germany are obliged to offer apprenticeships, is pretty much self-regulating. The more business, the more apprenticeships are available. Simples!

Most companies offering these positions, require good and relevant A-Levels and a good show-reel or similar record of interest and first level achievement.

Smaller production companies and companies that specialise in one aspect of production (e.g. DVD authoring, audio-only, CGI studios, post production, music, etc.) rotate their apprentices, so that they get during their three-year learning, experience of all aspects of AV work.

Those aspiring to become the next Petersen, Emmerich, or Herzog, can try to get into one of the three top film schools in Germany, but as almost everywhere, there are plenty of versions of 'The Wysuckie College for the Totally Dumb' (both public and private) for those who want to end up stacking shelves at Aldi and Lidl - or alternatively spending a few thousand on some goof-ball equipment and doing corporate and local cable work.

The same is true in any segment of the Creative Industries. Events happen, music gets made, pictures get taken, and people make livings doing that. But very few work in what you might call 'high profile' areas.

The only problem with budget corporate work is the word 'budget'.

The only problem makers of low-budget corporate productions have, is all the other makers of low-budget corporate productions. The cost of entry-to-market is close to zero!

In the days when a TV camera cost as much as five nice houses, life was simple. In the days when making a movie HAD to cost more than a new car, because that is what the film-stock plus developing cost, life was simple. In the days when a Steenbeck table, or a 24-track tape-recorder cost more than a cottage in the Highlands, life was simple.

Today, most larger production companies rent everything in for tax and finance reasons. In the beginning, they owned everything, studios, equipment, the lot. And the people behind the cameras were all on payroll. But then sound came along and everything got really expensive and even well financed production companies had to hire everything.

Now everything (well almost everything) is either dirt cheap or free. That means that every aspiring Cecil B. de-Hi-Def can grab their DSLR, shove a cheap mic on the top, buy a cheap Chinese tripod and some LED lights and offer their services to local businesses.

The same process that happened to small recording studios is happening (or has happened) to the corporate video market. The bottom-feeders make the market for their services assume that all corporate video offerings are done by incompetents and fools and they either drop the idea or have a go themselves.

And with no structure, as would be provided by master craftsmen and state accredited apprenticeship schemes, they are probably right!

 

[Caledonian TV]

The only problem with budget corporate work is the word 'budget'.

The only problem makers of low-budget corporate productions have, is all the other makers of low-budget corporate productions. The cost of entry-to-market is close to zero!

...Not really; having been doing just this type of work for some 31 years now, and making a living out of it, I watch those who think that's the case wash in and out with the tide, pausing only to occasionally pick up the scattered remains of their enterprise for a song.

That means that every aspiring Cecil B. de-Hi-Def can grab their DSLR, shove a cheap mic on the top, buy a cheap Chinese tripod and some LED lights and offer their services to local businesses.

TBH that sort of thing has been happening since the late 80s... The typical pattern was that someone would get made redundant and sink their lump-sum into some SVHS industrial kit, they'd shoot maybe half-a-dozen 'programmes' and discover they weren't getting the results... Because (a) the bare bones kit they had was not enough to operate in anything but 'bare bones' circumstances and (b) they didn't know how to use the equipment anyway!

Then the kit would either rot away or be sold off cheap. - The only difference now is that Chinese Junk is worth nothing.

The bottom-feeders make the market for their services assume that all corporate video offerings are done by incompetents and fools and they either drop the idea or have a go themselves.

...Which ultimately results in a load of 'webcam licking' black noise; yes, I see an awful lot of that. And some of it can get the client into quite serious bother. Which is why a market actually does exist where people are prepared to pay a little more to get things done properly, in an organised and business-like way, and ensure that the end product is legally safe.

Today, production companies rent everything in for tax reasons.

Personally I've never rented or leased any piece of permanent kit... In fact, one of the reasons we've survived, particularly over this past decade, is that I personally own every nut, bolt and screw that we need to operate. - But, if all you need is a pint of milk, you don't buy a cow. And there will be business models where leasing/renting makes more sense. However - the way that films and large scale productions have to be financed and run is about as relevant to 'bread and butter' video production as the piloting of a jumbo jet is to flying a kite!

Most companies offering these positions, require good and relevant A-Levels and a good show-reel or similar record of interest and first level achievement.

I don't know of anyone who will take a trainee on based on 'A' levels these days... 39 years ago, when I started my 4-1/2 year apprenticeship, that was off the back of five Highers and seven O Grades...

Unfortunately, university graduates are, in the main, fairly useless.

Uh-huh... And that's because the education system is such that they're only at the stage where they are fit to become trainees; they're not ready to be deployed as qualified staff! - I'm not defending that situation by any means; but it's the way it is. The old ACTT (ITV) apprenticeship scheme was killed off by Thatcher who hated the union, hated the industry and set the blue touch-paper under it. BBC tech training is a shadow of what it was - but, I'm lead to believe, at least still exists and is Graduate entry now.

Yes, we should perhaps be more like Germany in many ways... But we're not; and we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Getting back to the original OP. The answer is to aim your abilities and inclinations at the clients who have common sense and know what your talent is worth. There are some clients who are going to come with big projects. I know of one that was brought to Cornwall because they found a building in a nice place where they could put 120 people for a year.

 

[Russ Michaels]

I used to work with a guy that kept coming up with brilliant ideas for websites.
such as:-
An online carboot site to compete with ebay
A sell your own house website to compete with all the big estate agents

He also thought you just put the website online, and everyone just magically find it. I did try to explain to him that he would have to spend a lot of money on marketing and advertising to get people to the sites as well. But I was beating my head against the proverbial brick wall.

The worst thing was, he worked for a web hosting provider

 

[Xtm_Mike]

I used to work with a guy that kept coming up with brilliant ideas for websites.
such as:-
An online carboot site to compete with ebay
A sell your own house website to compete with all the big estate agents

He also thought you just put the website online, and everyone just magically find it. I did try to explain to him that he would have to spend a lot of money on marketing and advertising to get people to the sites as well. But I was beating my head against the proverbial brick wall.

The worst thing was, he worked for a web hosting provider

I hate this!

I just finished a small business website last week. I published it, handed over relevant details, received payment and wished him well. Literally one hour later:

"I've just searched for my site on Google and can't find it"

/faceplam

I explained in detail how google works and how long it can take for the site to start ranking, I also made it clear I do not offer SEO services... I guess it fell on deaf ears.

To the OP: This happens a lot, It comes from those that like to think of themselves as Entrepreneurs.. They always have some big idea that they want for next to nothing. I've worked on some projects like this, some from repeat clients and I started cutting them off... I'm all for people starting businesses, trying idea, some may work, most wont... but its a motivation killer working on projects you don't believe in. I now only accept projects that are a good fit for me and there is nothing wrong with being honest:

" Thanks for considering me/us for your next project, however we do not believe it will be a good fit for us due to project size/time required/skills/etc"

 

[Mark T Jones]

I

He also thought you just put the website online, and everyone just magically find it. I did try to explain to him that he would have to spend a lot of money on marketing and advertising to get people to the sites as well. But I was beating my head against the proverbial brick wall.

The worst thing was, he worked for a web hosting provider

My applicants were a bit brighter than that. Mos5 of them knew that you went on twitter and Facebook and clients would flood in

 

[jamesandjanie]

Just have a conversation about how you could do more for them and state a price range somewhere high in the sky. They'll say they need time to think about it and never call again to bother you.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

They are everywhere!

A recording studio got the following telephone call in 2009, which was recorded and transcribed for posterity -

(BTW, M is the Studio Manager.)

Ring! Ring!

M: Hello!

Caller (with Glaswegian nasal accent) Is this like a recording studio, an' that?

M: Yes.

Caller: You are a recording studio, then?

M: Yes, how can we help you?

Caller: Could you give me some advice. I am a rapper, you know, like Eminem and I need to get in touch with the right people and I was thinking that maybe you would know what I should do next.

M: Do you perform live?

Caller: Aye, but nobody comes. I tell them an' that, but they don't turn up. Last week I told all me mates and they said that they would come, so I set a time an' a date an' that, but they never turned up.

M: Where did you hold the gig?

Caller: In a field.

M: Um, er, was this at a festival?

Caller: No, it was just a field.

M: Did you have a sound system?

Caller: What d'ya mean?

M: Um, well, microphones, speakers and backing tracks, or perhaps a DJ on the 'wheels of steel.'

Caller: No, it was just me in the field. I told them all to come, but they did ne want to. They did ne turn up and they said it was too cold and it were raining. That's f**king ignorant, no turning up, just 'cause it's raining!

M: What a pity.

Caller: Aye, but I'm dead good. I'm better than that Eminem. You see, he's just talented, but I'm a f**king genius. You can give me any word out there, an' I can find a word what rhymes with it. I even found a rhyme for 'orange' - can you beat that! I want to take my rap to a higher plain. I believe that I can take rap to mean much more than any other human being. I'm that talented!

M: So what do you want to do with your rap music?

Caller: You see, it's my ambition to to go head-to-head with the best in the World. I believe, if I was to go against David Cameron and Tony Blair and them, I'd come out tops. I'm that f**king good!

Me: Do you have anybody that is working with you?

Caller: I'm a lyricist, what do I need other people for?

M: Well, you mentioned Eminem just now and he works with managers, producers, musicians, engineers and so on. There's a whole army of people involved in putting on a concert or even making a recording.

Caller: You don't understand. I am the most gifted person in all of creation. I don't need all those other people. I'm f**king amazing!

M: Yes, but music is a bit like building a house. You still need architects, engineers, plumbers, brickies, chippies, roofers, JCB drivers and all sorts of other people to work with you.

Caller: I'm also a builder. I can build you a house all on my own. I don't need all those other people. Now d'you understand what I mean when I say that I am the most gifted person in all of creation?

M: Well . . .

Caller: What I need is someone who can take my genius and cut it up and that, so that people get what I am saying. Then I can go up against David Cameron and people will believe in me and begin to follow me.

M: Follow . . . ?

Caller: Aye. You see, I'm the Messiah. I have been set down on this Earth by God to show people the way and I have to do this with rap.

M: Er, and how can we help you?

Caller: You have to do whatever they did with Eminem. I mean, how did he get started?

M: He got together with a producer called Doctor Dre.

Caller: Great! Now we're getting somewhere! So all I've got to do is call this doctor and he'll set me straight.

M: I think there was a wee bit more to it than . . .

Caller: So give me his telephone number, so I can call this doctor!

M: I don't have his number.

Caller: What d'ya mean, you don't have his number! Where does he f**king stay?

M: He lives and works in Los Angeles.

Caller: Oh, I see. Well, in that case, you'll have to call him for me.

M: I think it would be better coming from you.

Caller: Well, give me his number then!

M: I don't have his number. You'll just have to look at his website to get hold of his management and they'll take your call.

Caller: When he hears I'm the Messiah, you'll want to be talking to me. So what's the number for his manager?

M: I don't know. You'll just have to find that out for yourself.

Caller: Listen! I'm the f**king Messiah, you c**t!

At this point, 'M' decided to hang up.

Silibil n Brains?

 

[The Byre]

Sadly, just another nutter - but that does give me ideas!!!

 

[Russ Michaels]

I hate this!

I explained in detail how google works and how long it can take for the site to start ranking, I also made it clear I do not offer SEO services... I guess it fell on deaf ears.

Feel free to send them my way if they want SEO, I am pretty good at that