web design client asking for money back

[ianhaney]

Hi

I hope this is the right place.

I did a website for a client selling domestic appliances and lots of other items like batteries etc. the products are all pulled in from the clients supplier csv file and has been nothing but a headache from day 1.

2 days after the deposit was paid, the client emailed saying if the site is done yet. I got it done a week later but paymentsense was then integrated for about a month or 2 if I remember and found out that it was the wrong version so the checkout would not work which can understand is my fault even though paymentsense told me to use the direct version, they said it would be fine to use the direct version, so the direct version installed into opencart 2.0.3.1 not the hosted version, it was paymentsense who told me to use the direct version but eventually got the hosted version integrated so that all works now and has been for about a month and a half now.

The products and categories are imported using total import pro extension but I have never used it before so followed the documentation that was supplied and imported what I thought was all OK as never used it before but then new products was not being added to the site and existing products were not being updated such as stock figures, but a few days ago I got a developer to fix all the issues and now it does seem to be working all OK.

Now the client wants me to pay him back £1600 for wasted money due to the website issues, the £1600 he has paid has been for a combination of SEO, PPC and Facebook advertising for the past 3 months and I have said I can't pay it in a lump sum, it would be have to be in installments but he is refusing to accept installments due to the amount being quite large and I am so worried and feel sick cause of it and I don't know what to do and my youngest has had or just getting meningitis last Tuesday as well so am worried about her for that as well

He wants me to use a credit card to pay the money back or borrow the money back as he said he had to borrow the money to start the business and the money £1600 he took from his savings account as he was saving for a motorbike, he had £6000 so far saved for the motorbike

his words are below

"The money I used was from my savings account and was my money I was saving for my new motorbike but wanted to invest in this business to expand."

but then I got confused because he said he borrowed the money to start the business up, again his words below

"I don't think it would be fair for me to do an instalment plan with you, as I had to borrow myself to be able to open the business."

is it fair he is asking for the £1600 back or is he being bit unreasonable, I can understand the checkout issue was my fault but the import I feel was not even though I have never used it before, I was following the documentation and instructions from the developer who made total import pro

please any help or advice would be really appreciated as really worried about it

Thank you in advance

 

[fisicx]

What does your contact say about refunds?

Really difficult to read your post but it looks like most of the problems were of your own doing so I can understand why he wants the money back. However, if the money has been spend on adverts not sure how you can pay this back.

 

[Newchodge]

If you can still edit your first post please go back to the block paragraph and put some paragraphs in so people can read it.

 

[ianhaney]

Hi fisicx

To be honest no contract was supplied.

Sorry I have edited the post into more readable chunks so hopefully is easier to read now.

that's it, the money has been spent on SEO to a SEO guy, PPC has been paid himself and the Facebook advertising has been paid himself.

He just wants me to pay him the £1600 back.

 

[ianhaney]

Hi Newchodge

Sorry have edited the post now.

Sorry just so worried about it

 

[bakedplan]

Why was no contract put in place to begin with?

 

[Newchodge]

How much did he pay you in total?

What was the payment for?

You completed the site in 1 week - how long after that before the site was properly useable?

 

[fisicx]

that's it, the money has been spent on SEO to a SEO guy

Is this something they asked for or something you did without consultation?

As Cyndy said, how much did the they pay YOU to build the site?

 

[ianhaney]

To be honest, it was all rush to get started so no contract was drawn up.

The total paid to me was £800 to do the website design and to import all the products and have it fully working.

the site was fully useable around a month and a half after the payment was made.

the client did ask for SEO but as I know nothing about SEO, there is a guy in my office who does SEO but he operates under a totally separate business name and business in general to me so the SEO guy sat in the meeting with me and he spoke about the SEO side of it, I only spoke about the website design side of it.

 

[Paul Norman]

This is a tough one, and I suspect most of us feel for you.

However, you too on a job that, it appears from your own comments, you do not have the experience and knowledge to do. This is very common in the website world, and I completely get why you would attempt the job. However, the blunt truth is, you ought not to have taken on this project.

Secondly, there is no contract, although as it happens this is as much a problem for the customer as for you in this instance.

Had you a contract, hopefully that would limit your liability in the event of non delivery. I would expect you to refund the money, but not pay additional costs on top of that.

As to paying in installments - that is going to depend on the reasonableness of the proposed installments. I would want to clear it up as fast as possible, if I were you. Of course, the limiting factor would be your cash situation.

 

[ianhaney]

I do admit I thought it would be a straight easy import using the module and the documentation supplied. I know I was at fault there.

so do you think I should just pay the £800 back for the website but not the additional costs such as the other £800 for the SEO, PPC and Facebook advertising?

I did say I can pay £200 next week and then hopefully around £100 - £150 a month. but because of total he has got (the £1600) he won't accept installments but that £1600 is for as I say the SEO, PPC, Facebook advertising, sorry also includes £200 he had to lose because he got a order but it turned out the product ordered was obsolete so the client managed to save the customer but lose £200 as a result to keep him as he sold the customer another machine but the client had to pay the extra £200 so the customer did not have to.

 

[ianhaney]

I am just so worried about it that I feel sick and can't work and do feel like not carrying doing website design

 

[Xtm_Mike]

Wow, what a mess. Why did you accept a job that you didn't really know how to complete to a good standard?

Platforms like e-commerce stores, OpenCart, Magento particularly, can be a tough beast to tame. Just because you're a developer or whatever doesn't mean you should blindly take any job unless you have experience with said platform. If you want to work with OpenCart, learn it first. The fact you needed to rely on 3rd party plugins and documentation should have been enough to tell you that you are not ready for this type of work.

The same can be said for SEO - Why are you taking on SEO work when you don't know SEO? Does your client know you are using a 3rd party? Either way, as far as your client is concerned, it's all on you.

That being said, you didn't come here for a lecture, try not to worry and don't hand money over just because he has hit you with a sob story. Based on his message to you I get the impression he knows you fell short and is trying to exploit you for it... especially considering his story does not add up.

You need to offer compensation based on facts. What does your client mean by 'time wasted'? Can he justify how much money he has lost that warrants a full refund? I understand the website is working now, so other than delay compensation you don't need to offer anything else... Unfortunately, without the contract, it's in your best interests to offer as much to the £800 as you possibly can.

I'm not sure how well this will hold up in a legal environment and without a contract, you're probably not in a position to start being difficult, I would, however, question your clients' future usage of the website if he wants a full refund.

 

[Newchodge]

The lack of contract works both ways. There is no contract to say when the website should have been ready. The fact it was finished, ultimately means you should not refund everything you were paid.

If the order for an obsolete machine was actually the fault of your failure on the website, then refund the £200. Offer a further £200 for delays. Tell him that's it.

 

[ianhaney]

Sorry I should of made it clear in the original post, I am not the one doing SEO as I know nothing about it, a separate company to me is doing the SEO

The client does know I am using opencart and total import pro for the website.

He sees the £1600 money as wasted because the site was not correctly working in terms of the products not being updated or new ones added and obsolete ones on there which was not many but the site was working in terms of the checkout and test orders were made and went through fine without any issue.

 

[Newchodge]

Did the client pay you for SEO etc?

 

[Rafael Mediator]

So basically he wants his website and SEO for free? When problems occur in this sort of situation, some partial refund might be in order, but I don't think you should just say 'Yes' to his demands like that!

 

[ianhaney]

Sorry no the client did not pay me for the SEO, he paid the SEO to another separate company.

I don't think he wants the website design money back, just the £200 for this obsolete machine, the SEO, PPC and Facebook advertising so yeah wants the SEO etc, for free.

 

[Xtm_Mike]

Sorry I should have made it clear in the original post, I am not the one doing SEO as I know nothing about it, a separate company to me is doing the SEO

The client does know I am using opencart and total import pro for the website.

He sees the £1600 money as wasted because the site was not correctly working in terms of the products not being updated or new ones added and obsolete ones on there which were not many but the site was working in terms of the checkout and test orders were made and went through fine without any issue.

Ah sorry, I read it that your client paid you the money for SEO and you paid the SEO guy, which as far as your client is concerned puts the blame on you.

If your client was asking for SEO you should have recommended the guy from your office and washed your hands.. all money transfers, contracts etc should have been totally separate and your liability would be greatly reduced.

Quite simply, if you do not personally offer a service, don't sell it.. by all means, make recommendations and sit in meetings as a courtesy.

This is going to be difficult but you need to make an offer and stick to it.

Any money spent on advertising should be deduced from the £1600. If the site was working, is continuing to work, then your work is done. You can offer compensation for delays.

These things usually have some monetary value assigned to them such as X amount of working hours or orders lost... I don't want to pre-judge your client but I get the feeling he wants the full amount as he believes he can hold you to ransom.

Make a reasonable offer with a small amount of negotiation room.

This is one reason I hate working with e-commerce sites. Clients' generally expect to receive millions of orders within a few minutes and be millionaires within a couple of weeks, then hold you accountable when it doesn't happen. I prefer to leave it to e-commerce specialists.

 

[Newchodge]

First stop panicking.

Have a look at what the client is claiming against you and try to establish what the client has lost due to you. If the website was functioning but a few new items could not be added and a few obsolete items stayed on, then I would offer him £200 in full and final settlement. If there were a lot of problems that WOULD, not could, have cost him sales, then consider the value of that loss.

Don't let him dictate. Make a realistic offer in full and final settlement. If he doesn't accept he can issue legal proceedings, if he has

 

[ianhaney]

so I should not pay any money back to him for the SEO, PPC and Facebook advertising? that right?

The site was working fine apart from the paymentsense payment system because they told me the wrong version to integrate, that is all sorted and working now.

The products that were imported was all OK apart from the obsolete ones and stock figures was updating as well but was just not adding any new products.

Yeah he does want the full £1600, don't think he is prepared to negotiate, he just told did some sums and told me the figure he wants back which includes the SEO, PPC and Facebook advertising and the £200 he lost out to the customer who ordered the obsolete product.

Bit late now but I am now outsourcing e-commerce sites to a developer to do and I might just focus on the basic sites. Yeah I agree it's only been 3 months and he keeps saying he has not been getting any orders apart from that 1 and I think he is putting that blame on me too because of the website not working correctly even after the paymentsense issue has been fixed and is working fine.

 

[Newchodge]

The site was working fine apart from the paymentsense payment system because they told me the wrong version to integrate, that is all sorted and working now.

Forget WHY things went wrong. If payment sense was not working, could the site work? If not, how long was the site not working (I don't mean working perfectly, I mean having no ability for people to find products and make purchases).

 

[ianhaney]

Sorry is just so hard not to panic when is pretty much saying I got to pay the £1600 back and to use a credit card or borrow the money to pay him back and is not prepared to accept a instalment plan because of the amount.

He said he is not going to wait that long to get some money back as I said I can pay £200 in a week and a half time.

As far as I know the client is claiming that the website has not worked correctly since day 1 which I admin the paymentsense issue was an issue but was fixed around a month and a half ago, sure it was mid April, end of April that was fixed and has been working fine since.

Yeah that was it, some new items were not being added and obsolete ones were not being removed, that is why the order got put through for the obsolete product.

Since the paymentsense issue on the checkout and has been fixed, there has been no other reason that has prevented him from getting sales. if anything I have got things added to improve sales like adding energy rating images in the category and product page and added product filters for energy ratings and colours.

 

[ianhaney]

sorry Newchodge just see your post

"Forget WHY things went wrong. If payment sense was not working, could the site work? If not, how long was the site not working (I don't mean working perfectly, I mean having no ability for people to find products and make purchases)."

yeah the site was working fine besides the paymentsense issue and new products not being added and obsolete ones removed, besides that the site was working fine.

people could find the products but could not order due to the paymentsense issue, it was like that for around a month

 

[Newchodge]

Then make him an offer in full and final settlement and have nothing further to do with him.

What do you think he will do if you don't use a credit card to borrow money? Come round and pull your ears off? The only thing he can do is issue legal proceedings which will take about 6 months to sort and may leave you with only the £200 to pay.

 

[ianhaney]

that's it I have a developer who has taken control of the site now.

Only uncomfortable thing will be that the client will still come into the office to see the SEO guy as he is in the same office as me.

Other thing is because the developer is now in control of the site, the client will see me as responsible for the site even I am not doing nothing on it now but this developer is in Russia but is very good at opencart and knows what he is doing.

 

[Newchodge]

that's it I have a developer who has taken control of the site now.

Only uncomfortable thing will be that the client will still come into the office to see the SEO guy as he is in the same office as me.

Other thing is because the developer is now in control of the site, the client will see me as responsible for the site even I am not doing nothing on it now but this developer is in Russia but is very good at opencart and knows what he is doing.

I don't understand why are you (via your developer) having anything to do with the site?

Are you prepared to pay £1,600 so you don't feel uncomfortable on the odd occasion?

 

[Xtm_Mike]

sorry Newchodge just see your post

"Forget WHY things went wrong. If payment sense was not working, could the site work? If not, how long was the site not working (I don't mean working perfectly, I mean having no ability for people to find products and make purchases)."

yeah the site was working fine besides the paymentsense issue and new products not being added and obsolete ones removed, besides that the site was working fine.

people could find the products but could not order due to the paymentsense issue, it was like that for around a month

I wouldn't say the site was working fine if customers were unable to place orders. This should have been heavily tested before launch.

 

[ianhaney]

I can give the client the developers email address and then I have nothing to do with the site.

To be honest I am not really prepared to pay the £1600 back to him but am prepared to pay something as was my fault regarding the paymentsense issue and orders not being able to be placed for around a month and possibly the obsolete product issue resulting in the client losing £200.

 

[Newchodge]

I still don't understand why you are talking about not giving £1600 back when you were only paid £800.

 

[fisicx]

I can give the client the developers email address and then I have nothing to do with the site.

Not correct. The contract was with you and still is. You have subcontracted to this Russian bloke but the client won't care. They paid you the money not some chap in Russia

 

[ianhaney]

Yeah I can understand that regarding the developer as is still my contract even though I am not physically doing anything on the site now

 

[Newchodge]

Yeah I can understand that regarding the developer as is still my contract even though I am not physically doing anything on the site now

But what is the developer doing? If the site is up and running why are you (via the developer) having anything to do with it?

 

[ianhaney]

I am just lost to do or what to say to him so it remains professional, what would be a reasonable offer and can say I have seeked legal advice or is that not a good thing to say

 

[ianhaney]

the developer has fixed the issues so the site is now pulling in new products and updating existing new products and it runs a cron job every 5 mins to check to see if any new products are needed to be added and updates existing product stock figures and prices if need be.

The developer has also got some extra bits done that was on the old site and put them into the new site and he is also going to move it to a VPS hosting as he thinks shared hosting is not best for a e-commerce site with 4202 products on.

not sure to be honest I just thought because I was the one he approached to do the site in the first place that I should be having something to do with it.

I have told the client that the developer has now taken control of it

 

[Newchodge]

Can I suggest Ian, for the future, you need to sit down and think things through.

You agreed to build an ecommerce site for £800 (I think). That was the contract. Did you agree permanent updating and maintenance of the site within that £800? if so, your price is ludicrously wrong. If not, why is it being done? Who is going to pay the Russian developer, and how much and how often?

A number of times on this thread you have been asked questions, because people need to understand your position in order to give you the best advice they can. But you ignore those questions and just keep reiterating your fears. Or making statements such as "I have told the client that the developer has now taken control of it". What has that got to do with your problems?

If you are to succeed in business you need to calm down, slow down and think.

 

[AllUpHere]

I don't mean to be rude, but man up a bit. You are acting like a child who is scared of being told off by a teacher. The client knows you are a bit of a wet lettuce and he's trying it on. Stand up for yourself, admit when you are wrong, but don't let him dictate to you that you should be refunding all sorts of stuff.

And most important of all, chill. Really, this is nothing to worry about.

 

[ianhaney]

I did not agree to do any maintenance or updating within that £800, that was going to be discussed individually.

To be honest I did say to the client I was going to pay any costs to fix the issues which I have done. I paid $100 to him yesterday and still owe him $50 and also I said to the client, because of the issues I would pay the VPS hosting of £23 a month.

Sorry what questions, I do keep missing posts and not seeing them but will happily answer any questions so people can understand my position.

 

[ianhaney]

I do admit I am worried what he is going to say @AllUpHere when I say I am only going to pay x amount and that's it and can take me to court if he wishes.

 

[NickGrogan]

Ian

Looking at your previous posts,you been in the web design business for about 4 years.

And yet you're taking on projects without a contract, and taking on projects that you have no idea how to do.

Perhaps its time to take a break and work out what you're actually doing with your business and fill the gaps - technical and legal.