walking possesion orders - advice needed

[lovingthesurf]

Hi ,
HMRC have done a walking possesion order on some goods of ours regarding a debt to them . 2 weeks later another bailiff with a high court enforcement notice arrives to collect a sepearte debt from another creditor . I show them the walking posesion order from HMRC and that there are no more assetts within the company .
They then proceed to write down exactly what was on HMRC possesion order saying that HMRC one had expired ( it hadnt ) ?
Can someone advise me if the 2nd Bailiff now has any right to take any property that is on the walking possesion order that copied from the HMRC one ? As effectively it all belongs to HMRC , I guess:|
Any advice before Monday lunchtime would be great ?

 

[kulture]

I am not sure what else you can do. Clearly you need to inform the HMRC bailiff of the problem ASAP and clearly you MUST ensure that you get a receipt for ANY property taken. Otherwise the HMRC bailiff will assume you have taken the property.

 

[Spongebob]

Is the company in a position to pay these debts? How many other debts does the company have?

When it gets to the stage where bailiffs are queueing up to distrain on a company's assets it is all starting to look a little terminal.

If I could see that this was the end for my company then my solution would be to have a little fun. Rent a truck today and clear the premises to a secure storage unit - Safestore or similar.

Then when the baillifs from HMRC turn up tell them that another firm of bailiffs cleaned you out. Tell the same story to the second bailiff.

The confusion will reign for months - actually all the bailiffs will quickly lose interest as they see that there are no assets for them to seize and any further efforts are clearly a waste of time and money.

Eventually HMRC will simply wind up the company in the normal way and the Official Receiver will be appointed liquidator.

In my experience the liquidator will be content with the story that all the company's assets were seized by bailiffs....





Incidentally, the chances of being prosecuted for removing goods under distraint are minimal. Anyway, how can they prove you did it?

This is the kind of adventure that makes life worth living when your business is going down the toilet!

 

[lovingthesurf]

Spongebob ,
The company is now in the process of liquidation and cannot pay the debts due to either party , approx 20k each . The walking possesion order amounts to about £1.5 - 2 k approx in value and will nowhere near cover any of the debts if an uplift of goods was called .
I think i will inform HMRC of the other bailiffs attendance , to hopefully warn the other party that what they have done is wrong ( ?)
I will then perosnally offer £500 ( not from the company ) to buy the goods from the walking possesion so it goes into my own name . I can then hopefully sell those goods for approx 3-5k in their current situ .
I think a bit of fun by hiding the goods might be seen as unlawful and could incur consequences on me personally ( although it would be fun )
Anyone have any experience whether HMRC would still bother going for uplift of goods based on the debt due (20k)and what the possesion order could raise in our case ( my guess is approx 1.5k at auction )? A valuation is being prepared on all assetts within the company and an approx valuation of the walking possesion order in place ( approx 40% of goods) .

 

[Spongebob]

The company is now in the process of liquidation

That changes everything; it is no longer your business to be dealing with bailiffs, HMRC, or anyone else. This is now the liquidator's concern.

PS If you value the goods at £3-5k the bailiffs will probably realise around £500 from them. Subtract their costs and you're looking at sweet FA.

It's a pity you couldn't act before the liquidators were appointed...

 

[lovingthesurf]

ok update for you ,
spoke to HMRC and their Bailiffs , they said that 2nd Bailiffs were wrong have issued an illegal levy .

 

[lovingthesurf]

I will keep people updated on this for future reference

 

[daniel.benson]

Hi ,
HMRC have done a walking possesion order on some goods of ours regarding a debt to them . 2 weeks later another bailiff with a high court enforcement notice arrives to collect a sepearte debt from another creditor . I show them the walking posesion order from HMRC and that there are no more assetts within the company .
They then proceed to write down exactly what was on HMRC possesion order saying that HMRC one had expired ( it hadnt ) ?
Can someone advise me if the 2nd Bailiff now has any right to take any property that is on the walking possesion order that copied from the HMRC one ? As effectively it all belongs to HMRC , I guess:|
Any advice before Monday lunchtime would be great ?

When you signed the first wpa you agreed to a number of terms shuch as you must show it to any other Bailiff that may come to levy against your goods (which you did)

Once you have shown the wpa to the Bailiff he will then know he has no right to levy on such goods as they are already in the custody of the other Bailiff, If he continued to levy on such goods the levy would be unenforceable along with any further fees he may add to do this.

Is this a Bailiff or HCEO?

 

[lovingthesurf]

Hi Daniel
Yes I showed the 2nd person who I believe is an HCEO the wpa , they then practically copied from it and left , they informed me that the HMRC levy was out of date , it wasn't at all .
The situation now is that HMRC were made aware of the HCEO making a 2nd levy ( which they also said was invalid) and have made an uplift of the goods from the levy for public auction .

 

[daniel.benson]

Hi Daniel
Yes I showed the 2nd person who I believe is an HCEO the wpa , they then practically copied from it and left , they informed me that the HMRC levy was out of date , it wasn't at all .
The situation now is that HMRC were made aware of the HCEO making a 2nd levy ( which they also said was invalid) and have made an uplift of the goods from the levy for public auction .

Sorry for my late reply, The WPA is only out of date once you have fully paid that particular claim off.

Send the company a copy of the WPA stating your happy to pay the debt off (only if you are) and you would like to set up an arrangement but they cannot levy against goods as they are already under the control of another enforcement company.

I hope you get sorted soon, Good Luck

 

[lovingthesurf]

Daniel ,
Thanks .. I have faxed over documents to show 2nd Bailiffs that all goods have been uplifted by HMRC . There is now no possesions on our premises that the 2nd Bailifss can take or are entitled to , as their levy was simply copied from the HMRC one .
Company is now in process of liquidation so no further levys can be put on any assets left within the company as a section 98 has now been served to all creditors informing them .
Its all good and fresh air is now being breathed

 

[Spongebob]

Out of interest Daniel, what do you do as a bailiff if you distrain on goods at a company's premises and then return only to find the place empty?

My suspicion is that a bailiff will not do much, as the chances of earning out of the case are now slim...

 

[Spongebob]

Thank you Daniel; you have confirmed my suspicions.

You say that you would 'trace the debtor', but if the debtor is a limited company which has ceased trading and vacated its premises it is very much an intangible concept. You might trace a director of the company but he is not personally liable for the debt.

If the goods are safely in storage or have been sold on for cash it is impossible to see how you could trace them.

Are the directors in this scenario guilty of a criminal offence - would you be able to call the police or would you have to take civil proceedings?

 

[lovingthesurf]

I will answer that ,
If there is only bailiff involved and they did a levy on £5k of goods , all listed and noted . Company then goes into the process of liquidation , the bailiff can then go to seize those goods because they own them under the WPA ( if the debt has not been paid ) .
If the bailiff arrives at property to find goods gone and the debtor (ltd company )will not explain where they are , then the bailiff can them commence proceedings against the director personally as it is considered a criminal offence to remove/sell goods whilst under the WPA .
In our case the goods are gone because the first WPA came and uplifted , we then informed 2nd WPA all goods were now with HMRC . We did everything correctly .
Daniel , what is the success rate of chasing directors personally when goods have simply disappeared without any explanation ?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Me personally I have never had it happen to me or my company but I have heard of it happening to others. I would trace the debtor and attempt to recover the goods. The goods belong to the court once seized so selling them would be theft and interfering with controlled goods which both are an offence, but I suspect myself that most would't do much as it cost money to prove a wrong doing and time in court.

I was supprised to discover just how many cowboys did this job !
They are however the type of set up where if your threatened them they would run a mile Why not politly ask if they would like to engagae in a boxing match .They wont come back again.!!
Unlike Daniel Benson he would go after the Telaban if a he had the support of a county court Judge

 

[Ballito Bay]

This is the kind of adventure that makes life worth living when your business is going down the toilet!

Spongebob, I just love your humour, and could use some of it right now, have a read of our thread - its not that long, but it develops like a book, noone could write and please, please, let us have something funny to think about!

The thread involves two quite long posts so if youre in a hurry, read my last one - and then tell me how you'd have fun with this one....

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=222154

humour should help us through the day.

 

[daniel.benson]

I was supprised to discover just how many cowboys did this job !
They are however the type of set up where if your threatened them they would run a mile Why not politly ask if they would like to engagae in a boxing match .They wont come back again.!!
Unlike Daniel Benson he would go after the Telaban if a he had the support of a county court Judge

And what's that meant to mean?

 

[MWalker]

Thank you Daniel; you have confirmed my suspicions.

You say that you would 'trace the debtor', but if the debtor is a limited company which has ceased trading and vacated its premises it is very much an intangible concept. You might trace a director of the company but he is not personally liable for the debt.

If the goods are safely in storage or have been sold on for cash it is impossible to see how you could trace them.

Are the directors in this scenario guilty of a criminal offence - would you be able to call the police or would you have to take civil proceedings?

Distress for Rent: Landlords can utilise S.3 Distress for Rent Act 1689 and can sue the owner or offender. The penalty being treble damages for both rescue and poundbreach, and treble damages can be awarded calculated on the value of the goods.

County Court Executions: Section 92 CCA states that any person rescuing seized goods is liable to prison of one month and/or up to a level 4 fine (£2500)

High Court: Poundbreach is a trespass to the Crown and can be considered a breach of the peace (case law can be shown upon request if you PM me).

 

[mhall]

Is the company in a position to pay these debts? How many other debts does the company have?

When it gets to the stage where bailiffs are queueing up to distrain on a company's assets it is all starting to look a little terminal.

If I could see that this was the end for my company then my solution would be to have a little fun. Rent a truck today and clear the premises to a secure storage unit - Safestore or similar.

Then when the baillifs from HMRC turn up tell them that another firm of bailiffs cleaned you out. Tell the same story to the second bailiff.

The confusion will reign for months - actually all the bailiffs will quickly lose interest as they see that there are no assets for them to seize and any further efforts are clearly a waste of time and money.

Eventually HMRC will simply wind up the company in the normal way and the Official Receiver will be appointed liquidator.

In my experience the liquidator will be content with the story that all the company's assets were seized by bailiffs....





Incidentally, the chances of being prosecuted for removing goods under distraint are minimal. Anyway, how can they prove you did it?

This is the kind of adventure that makes life worth living when your business is going down the toilet!

I think you must be my hubbys long lost twin !

 

[Spongebob]

I think you must be my hubbys long lost twin !

Funnily enough, I was born in Birmingham...