Very early talks about a product we've designed

[Leslie Dav]

Me and one other have a idea for a product that is in the automotive repair business. There is no tool that we can find that does what we have designed. It's designed around wheel security.

Will start by saying both of us have no previous experience with any kind of running a business, no experience with designing and building a project. Nor do we have the funding to start in any kind of medium/large disputation.

What we do have is a product that we believe will work. We are both mechanic's and both work for a company who promotes safety as there number 1.

We so far have 2 ideas on how to start.

Idea 1
We can afford to make 10 without and investment. Using a 3D printer. First we get a few reviews from local garages. We are confident they would be good. With those reviews we can start to approach more garages with the idea and start to sell to them. With each sell we slowly build.

Idea 2
We try and find someone or somehow manage to patent the idea. We definitely haven't got the money for it. Then carry on with idea 1.

If this product is going to be as good as we believe, we are worried about another garage that we are working with or somehow a bigger company will see it like Michelin taking the idea and patent it themselves and leave us nowhere.

We did think about a NDA but in reality if a company we sold to did take the idea and go to a bigger company there's nothing we could afford to fight it in a court anyway.

Any advice is much appreciated. Good or bad.

Many thanks

 

[AmazonGeek]

Option one gets you feedback (although you have to be careful that they don't just tell you what they think you want to hear) and maybe the confidence to back it with your own money. If it is as good as you think, then beg/steal/borrow to get the cash together to start the patent process. This doesn't need to cost a fortune - a few hundred quid if you are lucky, so option 2 isn't that big a problem either.

Once you have the patent in place it is a powerful tool to at least get copycat products removed from Amazon, eBay, Google, etc. and it will act as a deterrent to most. If a big hitter copies it and sells it on their own website then you would have to decide if it is worth pursuing of course.

Absolutely get the NDA in place. Get Chat GPT to draw one up - it costs nothing. Getting someone to sign it shows you are serious and will put off many (and almost certainly the small garages you are trialling it with).

One of my clients did exactly this with a tool that most roofers in Europe now use and they have built up a multi-million pound family business from one small product. Dad was the inventor and now his 3 daughters run it. They are in the middle of exiting for low 8 figures.

If it is as good as you think, bootstrap it until you get some decent responses and data and then decide if you can go back to friends/family for capital. If not them, the bank. If not the bank, go to one of the angel investors groups. These are full of people who have been there, done it and exited for millions. They get bored after a while and then want to invest in good ideas. I went down that route a few years ago with another business and got 7 figures from one person over 3 years.

I recommend avoiding the big investment funds though. The agreements are like telephone directories and have horrible clauses if you don't meet targets. They also take months to complete and can fall through at the last minute. Much better to deal with an individual who can make his/her own decisions.

Good luck with it!

 

[EnterprisePro]

Very interesting. You're right in that obtaining a patent will carry some costs. Before you share any further, do you have clarity on the benefits? Does it save time/costs in its process or does it prevent a safety issue from occurring, thus having a positive impact on the bottom line?

I was going to suggest trying to use it inside your own company first to get some statistics.

Back to the patent: perhaps you're saying there's something specific about what you've designed or developed that is essentially your 'intellectual property' (IP).

I might even suggest speaking to a patent attorney and getting a feel for what the costs might be, without revealing too much. You'd only want to say something like "we've designed a device/tool that does X and saves Y money and/or alleviates the risk of Z". But keep close to you what your actual IP is for now.

I would not rush to commercialise anything just yet until you have all the facts at hand. It may be that you could raise funding first (privately) for securing the patent before going into prototype production.

Perhaps get other people's views, but I would definitely suggest building your portfolio or facts first to safeguard your idea.

 

[BusterBloodvessel]

I'm in the automotive accessories business (manufacture and supply). We have 3D printing capabilities in the UK, work with Far East manufacturers (we have a team out in China/HK), we own (well, sister company) a UK auto accessories distributor, and have just established an entity and distribution in the USA. I have 15+ years experience in automotive and could if nothing else point you in the right direction of target distributors or firms that could help with PR etc. I think going out selling it to garages one by one would be a tough, long slog - there are estimated 40k of them in the UK!

I'm happy to have a chat - on one hand purely with some feedback on the idea/industry, completely in the spirit of UKBF and helping people out. But if there's opportunity for us to work with you on prototypes and production of it and/or distributing it I won't patronise you by saying that absolutely wouldn't also be one of the reasons for having a chat! But it may turn out to be something that doesn't quite fit what we do or what we know about in which case I'll happily say so! NDA is no problem in that instance.

You need to be very careful and think seriously though around the patent area - if it's successful and becomes a hit, or even becomes TikTok viral etc, copies will be on the market before you know what's hit you. To touch on this point;

If this product is going to be as good as we believe, we are worried about another garage that we are working with or somehow a bigger company will see it like Michelin taking the idea and patent it themselves and leave us nowhere.

That can't really happen... once something is out in the public domain, it can't be patented (broadly speaking - someone else could alter it or add unique features and patent that). So once it was out there, someone can't steal the patent from under your nose and stop YOU from selling it... but you can't patent it either. The area is a whole minefield to be honest but I can give you the details of a specialist IP firm that we have used with offices in London & Manchester.

Feel free to drop me a DM if you like.

 

[DontAsk]

That can't really happen... once something is out in the public domain, it can't be patented

Make sure any disclosures are not public and covered by an NDA.

In the US, and maybe other jurisdictions, you have a grace period to submit a patent after first public disclosure.

 

[Leslie Dav]

Thank you for your response. We have a lot to figure out financially. We are 2 guys with families living pay check to pay check at the moment.

 

[Leslie Dav]

I'm in the automotive accessories business (manufacture and supply). We have 3D printing capabilities in the UK, work with Far East manufacturers (we have a team out in China/HK), we own (well, sister company) a UK auto accessories distributor, and have just established an entity and distribution in the USA. I have 15+ years experience in automotive and could if nothing else point you in the right direction of target distributors or firms that could help with PR etc. I think going out selling it to garages one by one would be a tough, long slog - there are estimated 40k of them in the UK!

I'm happy to have a chat - on one hand purely with some feedback on the idea/industry, completely in the spirit of UKBF and helping people out. But if there's opportunity for us to work with you on prototypes and production of it and/or distributing it I won't patronise you by saying that absolutely wouldn't also be one of the reasons for having a chat! But it may turn out to be something that doesn't quite fit what we do or what we know about in which case I'll happily say so! NDA is no problem in that instance.

You need to be very careful and think seriously though around the patent area - if it's successful and becomes a hit, or even becomes TikTok viral etc, copies will be on the market before you know what's hit you. To touch on this point;


That can't really happen... once something is out in the public domain, it can't be patented (broadly speaking - someone else could alter it or add unique features and patent that). So once it was out there, someone can't steal the patent from under your nose and stop YOU from selling it... but you can't patent it either. The area is a whole minefield to be honest but I can give you the details of a specialist IP firm that we have used with offices in London & Manchester.

Feel free to drop me a DM if you like.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I'll speak to my colleague and show him what you have said. We are back together tomorrow for work and definitely have a chat about it and contact you. We are in a bit of a dilemma as we both got different ideas. So far we haven't reached out to anybody. Hopefully we will contact you soon.

 

[fisicx]

The patent is the key to everything. Someone I know has the patent to something used on the railways. Other than the prototype he’s never made a single production item. He licenses everything and does quite nicely.

 

[pentel]

Holding the patent is only the beginning of the costs. There is an ongoing cost to hold a patent, In addition ( and this is where the big costs come in) the cost of defending a patent is down to the patent holder initially, although you may be able to claim the costs back if you are successful in your defence.

For worldwide patents you have to apply in each area separately.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Holding the patent is only the beginning of the costs. There is an ongoing cost to hold a patent, In addition ( and this is where the big costs come in) the cost of defending a patent is down to the patent holder initially, although you may be able to claim the costs back if you are successful in your defence.

For worldwide patents you have to apply in each area separately.

%

A patent isn't a miracle for success it can secure your market position if used well.

First question - what are you actually patenting? You can't patent an idea, you patent a technology or a process - or potentially a design (others know more than me). A Dyson vacuum cleaner may have 10s of patents - and Dyson pay many millions each year in defending them.

How necessary is it? Or put another way, how easy is it for someone to work around the patent without directly copying it?

I can guarantee if it's any good, it will be copied. Often the best way forward is to secure your niche and let the copiers take other bits of the market.

 

[MikeJ]

Check your employment contracts. You may find that your employer has rights to anything invented during your employment. You may want legal advice on that before spending any money on a patent.

 

[Leslie Dav]

Check your employment contracts. You may find that your employer has rights to anything invented during your employment. You may want legal advice on that before spending any money on a patent.

Yes we did think about that. My colleague is going through our contracts this week.

 

[Leslie Dav]

%

A patent isn't a miracle for success it can secure your market position if used well.

First question - what are you actually patenting? You can't patent an idea, you patent a technology or a process - or potentially a design (others know more than me). A Dyson vacuum cleaner may have 10s of patents - and Dyson pay many millions each year in defending them.

How necessary is it? Or put another way, how easy is it for someone to work around the patent without directly copying it?

I can guarantee if it's any good, it will be copied. Often the best way forward is to secure your niche and let the copiers take other bits of the market.

It's a process using a new tool.

 

[fisicx]

Start by getting advice from a patent expert. Might cost a few bob but they will guide you through the process. Or tell if a patent is even possible.

 

[FreddyG]

There seems to be a great deal of dancing around the maypole here. The OP and his colleagues must surely have £130 between them! That's all it costs (soon!) to do a basic IPO search.

Let Chat-GPT prepare your application and search - that costs nothing! (And at least, you will have stopped dancing around the maypole and received an assessment and a reply!)

However, if you use a patent attorney, that could cost several thousand pounds, depending on the complexity of your invention. For instance, drafting, filing, and prosecuting (i.e., responding to IPO) can often cost £2,000–£3,000+ (just for official phases), according to some IP firms. More comprehensive protection (e.g. filing via PCT, then national phase in multiple countries) is much more expensive.

So right now and at a minimum, just with official IPO fees, expect to pay at least ~£310 for a simple UK patent application (file + search + examination).

In the real world, and with professional help and prosecution, costs will normally be in the low thousands.

 

[Mark T Jones]

There seems to be a great deal of dancing around the maypole here. The OP and his colleagues must surely have £130 between them! That's all it costs (soon!) to do a basic IPO search.

Let Chat-GPT prepare your application and search - that costs nothing! (And at least, you will have stopped dancing around the maypole and received an assessment and a reply!)

However, if you use a patent attorney, that could cost several thousand pounds, depending on the complexity of your invention. For instance, drafting, filing, and prosecuting (i.e., responding to IPO) can often cost £2,000–£3,000+ (just for official phases), according to some IP firms. More comprehensive protection (e.g. filing via PCT, then national phase in multiple countries) is much more expensive.

So right now and at a minimum, just with official IPO fees, expect to pay at least ~£310 for a simple UK patent application (file + search + examination).

In the real world, and with professional help and prosecution, costs will normally be in the low thousands.

This works well when things are clear and defined; like the majority of trademark applications are

The majority of patents are far less clear, and the DIY approach can say a lot of time, anxiety and ultimately money. Unless the OP is in the minority who really understand these things, they'd probably benefit - as a minimum from professional advice on which aspect(s) can/should be patented and whether it would require a single or multiple patents

 

[fisicx]

The initial consultation with a patent attorney doesn’t have to be expensive. There are a number advertising online who offer a free initial consult.

 

[Gecko001]

You might need some safeguards, to prevent the company you are working for at the minute claiming some share of profits, should this product take off.

 

[DoolallyTap]

Just make one and prove the concept really works then start considering what to do next

 

[AmazonGeek]

The initial consultation with a patent attorney doesn’t have to be expensive. There are a number advertising online who offer a free initial consult.

I know a few so if you want me to connect you, send me a DM

 

[pentel]

Just make one and prove the concept really works then start considering what to do next

Prototypes usually go through several iterations so if you file for a patent and the final product changes significantly then you may not be covered.

 

[mmvb]

OP , love that you and your colleague are approaching this idea practically and thoughtfully,

I’m a small investor and product partner who enjoys working with innovators exactly in situations like this , early stage, passionate about a genuine gap in the market, and looking for the right way to move from idea to reality. I’ve been involved with consumer electronics and product development, bringing products from concept through prototyping, manufacturing and market launch ,including having 4 patented products under my company name ,so I’m well familiar with how the patent process works and some of the common pitfalls and practical steps along the way.


I also work closely with manufacturing partners in China (mass production, tooling, compliance, sourcing, quality control) ,was living and working there in shenzhen city for 15+ years , so if your product is something you eventually want to scale beyond the initial 3D prints, I could open doors and share those relationships to help that happen more smoothly.


If you’re interested, I currently have two slots available for new products to support ,whether that’s investment, help navigating manufacturing, technical advice, or strategy. Your idea could fit well into that, but I’d love to explore it with you carefully so you always feel in control of your product and vision.

I fully respect your ownership of the idea and I’m not here to take anything away from you. If you just want a sounding board, or help with patenting, or even an introduction to someone who doesn’t want to take equity, I’d be happy to help , whatever fits your comfort level.


Happy to chat privately or jump on a call just drop me a message.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

As a start make a copy of your design and what it does and used for, date and sign the letter seal it and give it to a solicitor to keep safe, proving you have copywrite on the design, whilst you wait for further action