Unfairly Dismissed

johnt5293

Free Member
Nov 6, 2009
20
10
I was employed by a company for 7 years, and last week I was, in my opinion, unfairly dismissed.
The company is a small engineering firm, and has been struggling in the current economic climate. To help with matters, we all agreed to take a £1.50 an hour pay cut, and work an additional 5 hours a week unpaid. There had also been an issue with a lot of jobs having problems with them, some were mine and my colleagues fault, but others were unavoidable, but have all combined to paint a pretty bad picture.
Not long after we signed the agreement, I was issued with a final warning because a job I had done was wrong. I admitted that I had made a mistake, but felt based under the circumstances, my mistake was not worthy of a final warning as other employees had made mistakes, some of which were more costly than mine.
My warning stated no mention of a right to appeal, and I received no prior warning that I might even be issued with one. I said that I was unwilling to sign the warning, and my immediate manager relayed this to his supervisor, the works director. He told him on 3 separate occasions that I wanted a meeting to discuss the warning, but it took 10 days before the director came and spoke to me about it.
Another job I had done had a problem with it, but again, it wasn’t my fault. The director came and told me that I would be allowed to have a meeting later that day to discuss my warning.
Less than 15 minutes later, the Managing Director came in and asked me to switch my machine off and come to his office. I was expecting it to be my appeal meeting, but he told me to collect my things and leave.
I requested orally on the same day a written explanation for my dismissal, and by the end of that same day, an explanation, and an appeal against my warning and appeal. Also, upon advice by ACAS, I gave a written account of my opinion/defence regarding my warning, and dismissal on the Monday (having been sacked on the Friday).
I have since received my final pay slip, and my P45, but no letter explaining my dismissal or an answer to my appeal. Was sacked Friday the 30th October. I also received no notice pay.
Can anybody offer me any advice, or experience of a similar situation? I understand from a friend that still works there that they may offer me my job back. However, the remaining employees have had another pay cut forced upon them, and they have recruited somebody new in my place. I have lost all respect and trust for them... what should I do?
 

johnt5293

Free Member
Nov 6, 2009
20
10
hmmm interesting response... I imagine you, as like my boss, has never made a mistake!..

There are still procedures that should be followed, and why is it fair that i should be singled out after 7 years of service when i have certainly put more in that i have taken out.
 
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hmmm interesting response... I imagine you, as like my boss, has never made a mistake!..


If I make a mistake people loose their jobs, nice to see the boot on the other foot for once.


sorry John, the point I was trying to make to the world at large was you should get what your owed for time worked etc, but nothing more.


I dont for one moment think you were after more.

sorry.
 
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N

NICHOLASM1987

Walk away like a real man and try not to make so many mistakes in the future?



sorry but as an employer .................

thats a real ****ty comment ,

This is what i hate about small companies they can twist rules and get away with it. when i used to work for small companies i just made sure i tucked a couple of grand away just incase the same thing happend to me. good luck anyway.
 
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Tej

Free Member
Oct 26, 2008
3,340
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Kent
thats a real ****ty comment ,

This is what i hate about small companies they can twist rules and get away with it. when i used to work for small companies i just made sure i tucked a couple of grand away just incase the same thing happend to me. good luck anyway.

Why are you offended by the comment?

Welcome to the world...

At least small companies gave you the werewithal to "tuck away a couple of grand":)

and now you are an employer ( I assume).. see how you fare down the line!

Good luck!
 
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johnt5293

Free Member
Nov 6, 2009
20
10
[. what should I do?


Get a job that you can do properly because all that suggests you were imcompetent at what you did[/quote]

Hmm... again, very interesting response. 7 years, but judged on basically 1 job.

Its idiots like you that make idiots like my ex-boss think that they can do whatever they like!..

Looks like i came to the wrong place for advice. The forum seems to be full of people who have never done anything wrong...
 
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Looks like i came to the wrong place for advice. The forum seems to be full of people who have never done anything wrong...

that`ll be why we`re still employed, succesful, rich ..........you choose.



to be fair John you havnt given anyone enough information to think otherwise, why not get your old boss to join and we`ll all just act as judge and jury.
 
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willitbe

Free Member
Aug 25, 2008
778
142
I suspect your boss just had enough of you and your cack-handed colleagues costing him money!

After years of subsidising your life by paying you a wage for something you clearly weren't up to, you are now going to try and screw him for a little bit more!

Expect no sympathy from someone who has had to pay wages in the past!
 
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johnt5293

Free Member
Nov 6, 2009
20
10
it clearly seems that this isn't the club for me...

But, to put this into context...

the mistake i made cost the firm around £50-£60.. I held my hand up, admitted i was in the wrong, and put it right as quick as i could. The customer wasn't affected, the job still went out on time...

A colleague made a mistake whilst programming a machine. He machined 4 components before he realised he done something wrong... i would say that mistake will have cost the firm around £100 EACH!! so £400... and his attitude was "**** happens".

The MD (who like yourselves doesnt make mistakes) made a mistake, which affected 100's of products, meaning 2 men had to spend 2 days in wales... so that probably cost nearly £1k if not more...

now maybe i don't have a right to feel like i have been singled out... but i think i do...

I have been there 7 years, and i feel i have worked hard. If a job needed doing, and it meant i had to stay till 10.30 at night, after starting at 6.30 am, to keep a customer happy, i did it... if it meant working a sunday, i did it. Ok, i got paid a fair wage. But i have certainly made him more money than i have ever cost him.

There are rules and procedures relating to dismissal, and the issuing of warnings. He hasn't followed them. He wants to punish me for my mistakes. thats fine, why hasn't he punsihed anyone else?.. he has made a mistake as he has ignored my legal rights as an employee, so i will punish him by making sure i get what i can. But if he had done things properly, and paid me my notice i would have accepted it, and walked away...
 
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willitbe

Free Member
Aug 25, 2008
778
142
Listen John.

There are 2 sides to every story, we know that but I have to point something out ..

If you have only cost your firm 50-60 quid in seven years in errors, then there is more than an issue here. Anybody else with that record would have been management by now!
 
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johnt5293

Free Member
Nov 6, 2009
20
10
i see this could go round in circles forever... and its difficult enough fighting it on the home front...

I was actually considered for management at one stage...

The mistake that seems to have been the nail in the coffin was only that ammount. there have been some over the years, but my conduct has never been any worse than that of my colleagues. In fact, one of my work mates was hours from getting his marching orders, but saved by his mate (who of course also happened to be a director).

If i'm honest, then if they had made me redundant 1st, i would have understood. Wouldn't have complained. Looking bigger picture...

and as i said before, if he felt that strongly about my conduct and he had gone about it properly then i would have accepted it..

but i have been singled out, and my legal rights ignored.

I came here for possible advice from people who might have had a similar experience.

There are indeed 2 sides to each story.. and i apprecaite that you have perhaps seen this from the other side of the coin... but what my employer has done is wrong.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post, but think i will stick with ACAS who are more impartial...
 
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it clearly seems that this isn't the club for me...

But, to put this into context...

the mistake i made cost the firm around £50-£60.. I held my hand up, admitted i was in the wrong, and put it right as quick as i could. The customer wasn't affected, the job still went out on time...

A colleague made a mistake whilst programming a machine. He machined 4 components before he realised he done something wrong... i would say that mistake will have cost the firm around £100 EACH!! so £400... and his attitude was "**** happens".

The MD (who like yourselves doesnt make mistakes) made a mistake, which affected 100's of products, meaning 2 men had to spend 2 days in wales... so that probably cost nearly £1k if not more...

now maybe i don't have a right to feel like i have been singled out... but i think i do...

I have been there 7 years, and i feel i have worked hard. If a job needed doing, and it meant i had to stay till 10.30 at night, after starting at 6.30 am, to keep a customer happy, i did it... if it meant working a sunday, i did it. Ok, i got paid a fair wage. But i have certainly made him more money than i have ever cost him.

There are rules and procedures relating to dismissal, and the issuing of warnings. He hasn't followed them. He wants to punish me for my mistakes. thats fine, why hasn't he punsihed anyone else?.. he has made a mistake as he has ignored my legal rights as an employee, so i will punish him by making sure i get what i can. But if he had done things properly, and paid me my notice i would have accepted it, and walked away...


so like I said at the top - walk like a man, your going to get about £400 if your lucky ............ worth selling your pride for is it?
 
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johnt5293

Free Member
Nov 6, 2009
20
10
well.. i would think it would be more than £400... will perhaps let you know.

Unfortunately, pride doesn't pay bills... But my head will be held higher if i fight for my legal rights, rather than walk away from a job after 7 years with nothing. Employers are not above the law...
 
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John get advice from Acas and or your union.
You might hang around here in the hope of getting some reasonable advice from some of the HR people who drop in: they seem both knowledgeable and fair to me, so it might be worth the wait, and worth putting up with snide, arsey remarks about being a man, and not costing your employer so much.

I personally think it a shame that so many rules and regulations make employing people expensive and difficult. At the same time it is not right to treat people badly because times are hard, and people here, playing the "take it like a man and move on" card, might not be the best source of information in a complex, or indeed any, situation.

Good luck.
 
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Tin

Business Member
Nov 14, 2005
2,931
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www.tinsoldierdesign.co.uk
I'd respectfully remind members who want to offer comments to do it without rudeness or offence. If members can't be constructive then why throw in rude one liners.

To the OP. If you believe you've been unfairly dismissed (it sounds like your employers may not have followed certain procedures under the Employment Act) then the first place I'd try is the Citizens Advice. You'll either get really good advice of really useless advice depending on who you get but they do have an excellent Information System which they should refer to in all cases. Tell them the facts and they should be quickly able to tell you if your previous employer dismissed you fairly according to laid down procedures.

At least you'll get some sort of qualified advice for free which will arm you accordingly.

Good luck.

Ray
 
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ORDERED WEB

Free Member
Jun 30, 2009
1,650
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Cyprus / LONDON
I was employed by a company for 7 years, and last week I was, in my opinion, unfairly dismissed.
The company is a small engineering firm, and has been struggling in the current economic climate. To help with matters, we all agreed to take a £1.50 an hour pay cut, and work an additional 5 hours a week unpaid. There had also been an issue with a lot of jobs having problems with them, some were mine and my colleagues fault, but others were unavoidable, but have all combined to paint a pretty bad picture.
Not long after we signed the agreement, I was issued with a final warning because a job I had done was wrong. I admitted that I had made a mistake, but felt based under the circumstances, my mistake was not worthy of a final warning as other employees had made mistakes, some of which were more costly than mine.
My warning stated no mention of a right to appeal, and I received no prior warning that I might even be issued with one. I said that I was unwilling to sign the warning, and my immediate manager relayed this to his supervisor, the works director. He told him on 3 separate occasions that I wanted a meeting to discuss the warning, but it took 10 days before the director came and spoke to me about it.
Another job I had done had a problem with it, but again, it wasn’t my fault. The director came and told me that I would be allowed to have a meeting later that day to discuss my warning.
Less than 15 minutes later, the Managing Director came in and asked me to switch my machine off and come to his office. I was expecting it to be my appeal meeting, but he told me to collect my things and leave.
I requested orally on the same day a written explanation for my dismissal, and by the end of that same day, an explanation, and an appeal against my warning and appeal. Also, upon advice by ACAS, I gave a written account of my opinion/defence regarding my warning, and dismissal on the Monday (having been sacked on the Friday).
I have since received my final pay slip, and my P45, but no letter explaining my dismissal or an answer to my appeal. Was sacked Friday the 30th October. I also received no notice pay.
Can anybody offer me any advice, or experience of a similar situation? I understand from a friend that still works there that they may offer me my job back. However, the remaining employees have had another pay cut forced upon them, and they have recruited somebody new in my place. I have lost all respect and trust for them... what should I do?

I feel this has less to do with errors and more to do with cost cutting

Q. what procedures have THEY put in place to help minimise errors?
Q What training did they offer you to help increase your chances of not making an error

Yes sack someone for being offensive, or violent, or having bad attendance etc.. But if they are genuinely useless at their job, and they have been employed for 7 years, then there must be an effort made by both sides to resolve the issues

I personally think, as you describe it, a tribunual will find in your favour. the fact you indicate they are considering offering the job back is very indicative of my first observation
 
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Bill Ryan

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Feb 2, 2009
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Hi John

You have given a set of 'facts' that might show unfair dismissal either through improper use of a gross misconduct situation, or failing to have or utilise the disciplinary/appeal procedure correctly or even by falsifying a redundancy (a test of which may include whether a new employee is sought, interviewed or employed).

You have been given some simple and useful advice about CAB etc which you should follow.

In a sense this forum is a bit like a lion's den for employees seeking advice as many of the forum members are employers who have had bad expriences at the hand of employment law and are not surprisingly a bit sensitive about situations like yours.

Many others, and I include myself in this, see it as entirley proper to use the law that helps you when it applies. That is what it is there for.

If the picture you have painted is a true reflection of the situation you seem to have a good case against your former employer in all the circumstances.

On a different note you need to be looking for work to mitigate your loss as this could become an issue if the matter gets to the tribunal and you win!
 
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yorkshirejames

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Mar 2, 2006
2,562
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London
John,

I'm afraid that on this forum, myself (and others) are here to look after small employers, and this largely explains the comments you have received. Sort of like asking Gordon Ramsey advice on being a vegetarian.

However, I also advise (under a pseudonym) on a couple of the employee-focussed boards. You may want to visit http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk and if I see your post I'll try to add something. You may also like to visit my website http://www.reportabademployer.co.uk and use the 'report' option.

On the face of it, you have been unfairly dismissed, and appear to have a claim of some form against this employer.

As others have alluded, if your employer can't turn things around, it is highly likely that he will pull the plug and noone will get a penny.
 
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it clearly seems that this isn't the club for me...

But, to put this into context...

the mistake i made cost the firm around £50-£60.. I held my hand up, admitted i was in the wrong, and put it right as quick as i could. The customer wasn't affected, the job still went out on time...

A colleague made a mistake whilst programming a machine. He machined 4 components before he realised he done something wrong... i would say that mistake will have cost the firm around £100 EACH!! so £400... and his attitude was "**** happens".

The MD (who like yourselves doesnt make mistakes) made a mistake, which affected 100's of products, meaning 2 men had to spend 2 days in wales... so that probably cost nearly £1k if not more...

now maybe i don't have a right to feel like i have been singled out... but i think i do...

I have been there 7 years, and i feel i have worked hard. If a job needed doing, and it meant i had to stay till 10.30 at night, after starting at 6.30 am, to keep a customer happy, i did it... if it meant working a sunday, i did it. Ok, i got paid a fair wage. But i have certainly made him more money than i have ever cost him.

There are rules and procedures relating to dismissal, and the issuing of warnings. He hasn't followed them. He wants to punish me for my mistakes. thats fine, why hasn't he punsihed anyone else?.. he has made a mistake as he has ignored my legal rights as an employee, so i will punish him by making sure i get what i can. But if he had done things properly, and paid me my notice i would have accepted it, and walked away...

Good luck with whatever you decide to do
 
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Hi all! can u help me please. i returned from maternity leave 5 mths ago only to find out last month that vacancies were applied for i wasnt notified of these vacancies that two people in my same department got. i have raised a grievance to this and their breach of equal opportunities for me while on maternity leave. also since ive returned my initial request i put in to change my days that i work and work flexibly was rejected unless i moved departments which would be to accomodate my days change but not working flexibly. i dropped my request because i didnt want to move departments. ever since returning ive been asked to sign a new contract which would permanently move me from one department to another and would increase the work that im currently employed to do. I havnt done this but they are saying that i will eventually have to. It has taken this same length of time to work out my A/L entitlement and im still waiting. plus my request for childcare vouchers was ignored two months running which costed me money. fulltime staff have been able to condense down their hours and have a day off, but if i wanted to change my days i would have to move departments. I am awaiting to hear back from my first grievance meeting. however if they dont acknowledge discriminating against me by treating me less favourably then im taking it further because i cannot go back there they have made me ill.
 
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And the last poster on maternity leave question was what I was about to say about. This last week and a half and the forum has turned into an employee help me from being sacked casebook. Like we have some secret code of management that the employee can use against his/her boss.The OP at the beginning of his thread pointed out a catalogue of mistakes, which the eagle eyed amongst us picked up and I think commented suitably on and the poster also had the right to feel aggrieved at the replies, and his reaction was then to explain properly about his situation to us, which then was sensitvely handled.Now if he'd explained that in his first post maybe he wouldve had a different reaction and thanked us for our constructive critiscm.Now we are being chastised for not being moderate.

I really hope John can resolve his dispute in an amicable way with his bossesand return to work, but John please remember this, do not blame other people and mistakes made by them that you have noticed yourself, having been boss myself I am aware of what goes on in my organisation, I'm not obliged to make you aware of that though.
 
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johnt5293

Free Member
Nov 6, 2009
20
10
Well to address Bri's response to my thread;

Firstly,I did not realise this was a mainly employer orientated forum, and judging by some of the threads i read before deciding to join and seek advice, i believed that i would get opinions from both sides, and possibly some advice that may help.

Secondly, I did not include too much information in my first post, as a mere outline of the facts took up quite some page space, so thought it best to add additional information should anybody take an interest. A mistake on my part perhaps/ or a matter of opinion...

Thirdly, I'm not after "screwing" as much money out of my ex boss as possible as has been hinted at. Times are hard, and if he feels i'm a weak link in his chain, then he has every right to get rid of me. I have made mistakes, which have undoubtedly cost money. But my problem is simply that i feel i have been singled out, which I find unfair. In the scheme of things, i'm the second longest serving member of staff in that department. The longest serving member has a very long history of being a naughty boy, and has had enough warnings to wall paper my living room with... he is also very "matey" with one of the directors. Another chap I worked with is the only person who can operate one of the machines, as he is the only one who has been given (limited) training, and the time to get used to it. So they aren't going to get rid of him...Another colleague has not long finished his apprenticeship, but the company paid for him to do an extra year at college. So perhaps they feel they haven't had their money's worth from him yet, and to be fair, he is good at his job. Better than me? Swings and round-abouts... horses for courses...
They have taken on another employee since my departure... a friend of the manager!?! He will obviously not be entitled to any redundancy or a long period of notice pay if the place folds...

Perhaps i'm putting 2 and 2 together here and getting 5... maybe not, only my boss knows... but the way i see it is;

1. If you want to discapline somebody, then by all means do. But do it fairly, and to the procedures you have layed down. AND AT LEAST GIVE THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.
2. If you want to dismiss somebody because you feel your company will be better without them, then by all means dismiss them. But, do it properly, fairly, and within the proceduress you have layed down. I am not guilty of Gross mis-conduct, so don't refuse to pay me my notice pay.
3. At least have the decency to reply to your ex-employees letter requesting an explanation for their dismissal, and explain to them why you feel it is correct to ignore THEIR legal rights.

I'm sure all of those who are employers, and have replied to my post would treat all their employees fairly. But there are some out there like my boss who think they can do as they please, who are giving you a bad name. That is surely one of the reasons behind the creation of the ACAS code...

I have taken all the comments on board, and appreciate people taking the time to respond, whatever their reasons/opinion. You have made me think from my employers view more than i perhaps would have done... but I ask you this, should you sack anyone for any reason, please remember this thread from a father who has children to support, and who will probably lose his house if he can't find another job after christmas. I can blame nobody but myself for my own mistakes, but 2 wrongs don't make a right... and my employer has made a mistake too... all i want from him, is what i'm owed for 7 years of otherwise dedicated service.

Thanks to all

John
 
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John, thank you for addressing my comments. I would urge you to keep the clear head you have shown in this thread, I commend you for that.We are not judge and Jury here but this forum allows us and you too, to express ourselves freely.To advise and give our opinion too, sometimes where its not required. We *****, we bicker and we bemoan, we also laugh too. Sometimes its letting off steam for us, stops us bickering with our other halves(mine thinks I'm having some affair on facebook late at night.Yeah right!!!).

We also are aware of the consequences and the possible outcome of the position you find yourself in at this time of year(please feel free to look over some of my threads I've posted in the past and you will see my circumstances are not far from your own at the moment and you may see you may have quietly prejudged us too)

You have come to the right place for advice but you have to be prepared to hear things that you dont want to.

Keep us informed of how you get on.
 
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John....it seems to me that a the firm would have got rid of you long before now if your work was not up to scratch...there is no way they would let someone make mistakes and lose them money for 7 yrs!

It I were in your shoes I would be wondering whether the current financial state of the company was the real reason behind why I was sacked...rather than some mistakes I had made.

You are obviously feeling aggreived and so, if only for your own peace of mind, I think it's best if you explore all avenues available to you now....you need to act quickly as there are time limits for bringing claims etc.

However, don't lose sight of the fact that your main priority just now I presume is that you have no job. If I were you I would devote the majority of my time to this.

A few years ago when I needed employment advice I used a company called Employment Law Helpline...based in Manchester. They were excellent and gave me a lot of free advice over the telephone...through a very difficult period. I found them a lot better than the CAB as I could just pick up the phone and speak to someone straight away....I also called ACAS. You could google them and perhaps give them a call....there is no charge and you have nothing to lose. However, I think if you do have a claim they do no win no fee....not sure if they are still doing this.

Good luck with whatever you decide....and with the job search.
 
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johnt5293

Free Member
Nov 6, 2009
20
10
Hi all,

An update for those who are interested...

I today met with my former employer, who has offered to re-instate me. I will be paid for all the time I have had off, and my final warning shall be retracted.

He shook my hand, and told me we would start with a clean slate.

As much as I would like to believe it's something to do with him or the company missing me, I know its more do with the fact he has realised it's going to cost him money to get rid of me. I'm happy as I have a job, and he's happy because he hasn't had to part with too much cash.

We shall see how we go...

Thanks to all those who contributed to the thread

John
 
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thebigIAM

Free Member
Jan 11, 2009
1,084
201
I was interested, so thank you for the update.

Your boss sounds like a man under pressure. It could be this latest move simply buys you both some more time.

It might not hurt to have a look around and see what other jobs are available in your field. Or self employment, perhaps?
 
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Excellent news john, coming up to xmas too :)

Glad to see your boss finally sorted things out with you, but remember that he is probably under a bit of pressure right now and give the guy your best efforts, so he knows he made the right decision.

It certainly seems now that he acted a bit hastily, and he probably regrets it, though as you say he probably also realised this was gonna cost him a few bob in paying your notice, etc.

Keep the head down, put the effort in, and let the guy know you are irreplaceable.... then you'll not be the one with the problem next time !!

Enjoy your xmas, it should definitely be better now.
 
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I can't believe how there are so many sanctimonious,condescending,creeps on the forum.

The guy makes a couple of mistakes which cost the company a pitance and everyone forgets the 7 years service he has given,during which time I am sure his employers made healthy bit of profit out of him.

Then its suggested he is trying to screw his employer.

Now if your an employer you are well aware that you are going to try to screw as much profit as possible out of your employee's.

so kettle and pot come to mind.:)

And before anyone asks at one time in my illustrious career I had 200 men working for the company and learnt that Sh1t happens.

save me from the human race.:|

Earl
 
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