Trading standards giving me a caution for a 1st offence - No warning

[bounce]

Hi

I run a convenience store and recently had a visit from trading standards...I have never been in any trouble what so ever with anybody before until this visit..

They came to check use by dates on products etc..

We sell sandwiches pasties etc which are on a sale or return basis, once the date has passed we would put them in a box at the back of the shelf until they are collected.

The trading standards officers found these items and said we are breaking the law etc etc...Which now thinking about it I understand why they are said that however we didn't intentionally keep them on sale or in view of customers, but yes common sense says if the customer has a look around and finds it, potentially they could buy it..

We were a bit naive and said straight away we would change our processes and take on board any advice they had, also if they had any guidelines they could provide us with, would be happy to use that when training staff etc, they said they cannot provide any and as one of the pasties were showing a bit of mold they may need to send for testing... However these were at the back of the shelf in a box with none of these on show. They did however find a yogurt with the day before date out of all the other items which was at the front, which was on oversight and could clearly see all the other 100s of items were ok.

When they started taking the items off the shelf, they started taking lots of items off that were still in date which made me look at it as i new they had ample date, and pointed this out and they were like oh we made a mistake...They made mistakes too..but that was ok!!

This visit happend in Aug 2019...In October 2019 they asked me to go for an interview under caution, making me feel like a common criminal...They read my rights out and interviewed me under a PACE interview....

For a while after I didnt hear anything, until near Xmas, they called asking me to attend again as one of the copies of the interview were blank and needed me to be present so they can open the master copy to see if that had any recording of the interview, if I didnt attend they would need to goto court to get it opened...

I never had any legal representation as I instantly changed our processes to ensure it doesn't happen again and was happy to co operate...

The other day they called said they have enough evidence to prosecute through the courts, but if i am happy to admit to the offences they will make me sign a caution for 3 years...If i don't they will take legal action...

I was hoping for a 1st offence....Maybe a warning letter...As I co operated and showed them evidence of changes to our processes and stated numerous occasions we would never intentionally sell past used by date products..

I understand what could happen if someone buys after use by date products etc, and have read about many businesses being prosecuted for continuing to sell out of date products after being warned, however they have gone straight to a caution with us...

I was thinking of requesting a copy of the file to have a read through all their notes...If they allow this..

They have given me no other option but to sign the caution...

Does anybody have any experience in this kind of situations...?

 

[Newchodge]

The caution IS a warning.

 

[UrbanRetail]

It seems a bit heavy-handed. You could probably go into a local big brand supermarket and find stuff out of date, but I guess they aren't looking in those shops.

 

[Mr D]

What warning could they give?

Some people the first warning is a prosecution.

 

[bounce]

Well they sometimes give a warning letter explaining the consequences of selling passed use by etc and if happens again give a caution for 3 years and still if continue prosecute through the courts...

 

[bounce]

It seems a bit heavy-handed. You could probably go into a local big brand supermarket and find stuff out of date, but I guess they aren't looking in those shops.

Yes exactly... I have read cases where they have cautioned after repeat visits where they continue to do so!

 

[paulears]

Seems heavy handed when it's fine for takeaways to operate with a dreadful food safety rarting on the door!

 

[bounce]

Exactly... I have never had to have a pace interview or anything... When they needed to open the master copy they had 5 of their officials there sat around me... Was quite intimidating to be honest... Mistake I made I didn't take legal representation... I honestly thought as I had instantly changed my my process and Co operated it wouldn't come to this...

Basically I have been left with admit the offence and we will caution you or go through the courts and prosecute!

 

[Mr D]

Exactly... I have never had to have a pace interview or anything... When they needed to open the master copy they had 5 of their officials there sat around me... Was quite intimidating to be honest... Mistake I made I didn't take legal representation... I honestly thought as I had instantly changed my my process and Co operated it wouldn't come to this...

Basically I have been left with admit the offence and we will caution you or go through the courts and prosecute!

You acted badly and now have consequences. Whether just a written warning or a caution or prosecution take what they are giving. And do not have the same problem again.

What has happened to other people with different circumstances has no relevance to what happens to you now.
If you had used better process for dealing with the stock you would not be in this situation.

 

[Newchodge]

We sell sandwiches pasties etc which are on a sale or return basis, once the date has passed we would put them in a box at the back of the shelf until they are collected.

I suggest that this is the reason for the 'heavy handed' attitude. Many, if not most, shops will occasionally miss a sell by date and have out of date stock ion the shelves by accident. You knew this stuff was out of date and deliberately left it where it could be sold.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

You have done yourself up like a kipper leaving the out of date stock in the sales area

Forget about and don't do it again

 

[UrbanRetail]

You admitted the offense because you committed the offense.

Look at it this way, you get a caution for 3 years, but if someone with a weakened immune system ate your (admittedly low-risk) food items, they could be severely ill or even dead.

Learn your lesson and move on.

 

[The Byre]

It seems a bit heavy-handed. You could probably go into a local big brand supermarket and find stuff out of date, but I guess they aren't looking in those shops.

Trust me, they do!

 

[Mark T Jones]

You’ve messed up you got caught


Whether they were ‘heavy handed’ or whether others have got away with it are irrelevancies.

Learn and move on.

 

[billmccallum1957]

A formal caution goes on your criminal record, you need to decide if you want that or fight the case in court.

 

[MBE2017]

As above, a caution is you admitting to the offence. Learn from it, nothing more you can do. Since the items are on sale or return remove the out of date items from the shop floor, I cannot think why you left them in a box at the back of a shelf.

My daughter works in Boots on sundays, she regularly goes through their sandwiches and removes any out of date or about to go out of date items, each day she works. Other staff do the same each and everyday.

 

[alan1302]

Basically I have been left with admit the offence and we will caution you or go through the courts and prosecute!

Which is how it should be - leaving food that can potentially make someone quite sick in a box with all the fresh sandwiches just sounds mad so glad they caught it...you just need to move on from it now and hopefully learn from it.

 

[Mark T Jones]

A formal caution goes on your criminal record, you need to decide if you want that or fight the case in court.

In this case it’s hard to see how the OP could win.

 

[billmccallum1957]

In this case it’s hard to see how the OP could win.

I wasn't saying he could win, just that its a something to consider.

My daughter found a mobile phone whilst on a night out (had a few too many) so she gave it to a friend, expecting him to give it to the bar staff. But he didn't, and a few days later tried to sell it.

He told the police that my daughter gave him the phone and she was cautioned for theft.

She didn't know that a caution is as good as a conviction and goes on your record. When she applied for a job with the NHS the caution came up in the subsequent DBS check.

 

[ecommerce84]

What ever do they do with the out of date sandwiches and pasties when they get them back?

I assume it’s just to prove you didn’t sell them?

 

[DontAsk]

Have you considered that you may have actually sold something out of date (albeit unwittingly) and made someone ill?

 

[Alison Moore]

It sounds heavy handed, but maybe someone purchased an out of date item and reported you to Trading Standards. Maybe they've had more then one complaint hence their approach. Maybe someone got ill after purchasing an out of date item from you. But why would leave out of date items on a shelf for people to inadvertently purchase? And if some of the items had mould on them, then it was probably more than a day out of date. It sounds like you have no choice but to sign the caution for 3 years, and make sure that you're extra careful in your stock control during that period as they'll be back to do spot checks.

 

[ComPropSolicitor]

arguing or suggesting that they have taken a 'too heavy handed approach' is no defence at the end of the day and whilst you may feel hard done-by people do have to be know that rules exist and that they are capable of being enforced for them to be deterrents - don't take this the wrong way but I would focus on showing empathy and remorse instead of feeling like a victim.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

I was always under the impression a PACE interview was a fact gathering process by the regulator... therefore is purely that... an interview... they can call it a caution

Where these... best before dates or use by dates? The two are completely different.

When the date is passed, it doesn't mean that the food will be harmful, but it might begin to lose its flavour and texture. It's completely legal for shops to sell food past the best before date. – Use by dates are about food safety, it's illegal for shops to sell any food that has passed this date.

Was the police involved? have they presented you with any other "evidence"... or just going off what was found?

 

[eteb3]

I wasn't saying he could win, just that its a something to consider.

My daughter found a mobile phone whilst on a night out (had a few too many) so she gave it to a friend, expecting him to give it to the bar staff. But he didn't, and a few days later tried to sell it.

He told the police that my daughter gave him the phone and she was cautioned for theft.

She didn't know that a caution is as good as a conviction and goes on your record. When she applied for a job with the NHS the caution came up in the subsequent DBS check.

A friend of a friend had the self-same issue after accepting a caution for possession of cannabis as a mid-teen. I understood from the friend that a court could have imposed a penalty that expires (for DBS purposes) much sooner than a caution (do they ever?), even if superficially it's more severe.

 

[billybob99]

Was the police involved?

Probably, nothing more important than fighting the bad pasties and sandwiches gangs roaming our streets.

 

[Newchodge]

I was always under the impression a PACE interview was a fact gathering process by the regulator... therefore is purely that... an interview... they can call it a caution

Where these... best before dates or use by dates? The two are completely different.

When the date is passed, it doesn't mean that the food will be harmful, but it might begin to lose its flavour and texture. It's completely legal for shops to sell food past the best before date. – Use by dates are about food safety, it's illegal for shops to sell any food that has passed this date.

Was the police involved? have they presented you with any other "evidence"... or just going off what was found?

He did say that at least one of the pasties left available for sale was mouldy. Probably use by dates involved!

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Probably, nothing more important than fighting the bad pasties and sandwiches gangs roaming our streets.

My post was due to the fact that... only a police officer can issue a caution.

Therefore it couldn't have been a caution. they can call it whatever they want... but a caution it is not

@Newchodge food that is in date can also be mouldy though... I know it's not the point, but had the sandwich been in date... would trading standards have just ignored it? nope...

Only last Friday, I went for a sarnie, pulled out my bread which I purchased the day before out the bread bin and it was already green mouldy... and well in date...

 

[Scalloway]

Trading Standards can issue a caution

https://www.bromley.gov.uk/leaflet/273312/5/681/d#tsi6

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Trading Standards can issue a caution

https://www.bromley.gov.uk/leaflet/273312/5/681/d#tsi6

Sorry, but I still stand by what I've said... no one, whether it be a TSO, civil servant or a member of the public can give a caution... it is a formal warning... it is not a caution... as soon as they even start to address the reading of rights that person has broken the law by impersonating a police officer.

Only Police officers can read you your rights... Even a PSCO cannot read you your rights

I don't write the rules, and sorry... neither do .gov "companies"...

 

[Scalloway]

Local authority officials have the power to prosecute offenders for specific offences. If you look at page 259 of this document on food law you will find this.

https://www.reading.ac.uk/foodlaw/pdf/uk-15020-practice-guidance.pdf

Formal Action
The taking of action against a food business operator as set out in the legislation including the service of a statutory notice to remedy non-compliance with legal requirements, the issuing of a Simple Caution or the institution of legal proceedings for breaches of legal requirements.

And on page 264

Simple Caution
Has the meaning set out in Ministry of Justice guidance note : “Simple Cautions for Adult Offenders”

Which refers tyou to this document, the same one as the police would refer to.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_data/file/708595/cautions-guidance-2015.pdf

 

[billybob99]

it was already green mouldy

I'm giving you an official caution under the satisfactory bread conditions act 2020.

Please check your bread at regular intervals throughout the day.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Sorry, but I still stand by what I've said... no one, whether it be a TSO, civil servant or a member of the public can give a caution... it is a formal warning... it is not a caution... as soon as they even start to address the reading of rights that person has broken the law by impersonating a police officer.

Only Police officers can read you your rights... Even a PSCO cannot read you your rights

I don't write the rules, and sorry... neither do .gov "companies"...

Good one Woodshop I will keep an eye for that one .Don't think I will ever need it but you never knows

 

[Newchodge]

Sorry, but I still stand by what I've said... no one, whether it be a TSO, civil servant or a member of the public can give a caution... it is a formal warning... it is not a caution... as soon as they even start to address the reading of rights that person has broken the law by impersonating a police officer.

Only Police officers can read you your rights... Even a PSCO cannot read you your rights

I don't write the rules, and sorry... neither do .gov "companies"...

I am sorry, but you are wrong. DWP officers can caution (read you your rights) before interviewing suspected benefit fraud people, RSPCA officers can caution before interviewing about animal cruelty, they can issue summons to appear at court, they can prosecute and they can issue an official caution (recordable outcome of someone admitting a criminal offence). as can trading standards and public health etc. Their powers are limited to dealing with things within their remit - an RSPCA officer could not deal with someone suspected of benefit fraud, but within their remit they do have those powers. Border Force officers can arrest suspects as well.