The £2Billion “Kickstart” Scheme for Trainees & Apprentices

[Porky]

Hi all,

So the scheme is set out today designed to help get 16-24 year olds into employment. Any help in this direction is highly welcomed. I do worry for the next generation. Further as a conscientious employer I want to do my bit and providing I can arrange for a staff member to train and work with a junior, I would certainly like to offer a training program.

However, the details of this scheme sound confusing already to me, anyone know where I can go to get proper clarity? :-

* Is the chancellor saying that the scheme is only for the unemployed already on Universal Credit? In other words I can’t take on a school lever or graduate unless they are already on the dole and for how long?

* irrespective of what I pay the trainee, I would be able to claim back whatever the minimum wage is for the age for 25 of the 35 hours per week I employ them?

* support is 6 months then I’m on my own?

* Do you still need to offer NVQs or other official qualifications alongside the training we supply?

Apart from what sounds like a small financial contribution for the first six months when you take on a junior, I am wondering how this scheme is any different from the existing training schemes we already have?

For me it’s not cash to train that’s the issue, it is having the time to invest to do it?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

It is only for those on Universal credit and this limits you from finding the right candidate !

 

[Bob Morgan]

It is only for those on Universal credit and this limits you from finding the right candidate !

Venturing in to the territory of the 'Unemployable!' - But, keeps them off the Unemployment Register! Didn't we try this before, and found that it didn't work? - With a certain person quoting Saint Francis of Assisi?

 

[Mr D]

Unfortunately it came across like desperation method. There has been help for this group for many years - often poorly managed and subject to fraud.
I did notice what appears to be intern position being suggested too. We had moved somewhat away from those in past 30 years.

 

[Porky]

I remember in the 1980s we had the YOP scheme Youth Opportunity Program and then later the YTS Scheme Youth Training Scheme where a company could have a trainee at a token fixed rate per week, the trainee went for one day a week education at a college or centre and I think the government made up the difference?

If they are really bothered about youths missing out on training opportunities (the lost generation) then I’m surprised the attention isn’t on having a new scheme accessible for all youths - I fear one aimed just at the unemployed is selection against, its like encouraging youths to go on the dole so they can get on a scheme?

 

[Mr D]

I remember in the 1980s we had the YOP scheme Youth Opportunity Program and then later the YTS Scheme Youth Training Scheme where a company could have a trainee at a token fixed rate per week, the trainee went for one day a week education at a college or centre and I think the government made up the difference?

If they are really bothered about youths missing out on training opportunities (the lost generation) then I’m surprised the attention isn’t on having a new scheme accessible for all youths - I fear one aimed just at the unemployed is selection against, its like encouraging youths to go on the dole so they can get on a scheme?

Back to the 1980s.
Hundreds of applicants for a single menial job. Ignore people that don't fit. Refuse to employ disabled. Refuse to take on pregnant women. Legal action because not getting a job.

May well be easier for businesses just to take on contractors for particular work. Virtual PAs etc.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Back to the 1980s.
Hundreds of applicants for a single menial job. Ignore people that don't fit. Refuse to employ disabled. Refuse to take on pregnant women. Legal action because not getting a job.

May well be easier for businesses just to take on contractors for particular work. Virtual PAs etc.

I do not employ women! - But and there again, my Production Office is outside of the UK and EU! - I can do it! It is permitted! This is what happens in many parts of the world! - You might not like it, it might be considered as being 'NOT Politically Correct' but this is the Real World!

 

[Mr D]

I do not employ women! - But and there again, my Production Office is outside of the UK and EU! - I can do it! It is permitted! This is what happens in many parts of the world! - You might not like it, it might be considered as being 'NOT Politically Correct' but this is the Real World!

Indeed.
Your personal choices should be your choices.
Here there were jobs that men were allowed to do but not women. And some jobs women were required for but not men.

Has taken many years to even things up. And still a shortage of female sewage workers and male midwives.

 

[antropy]

It is only for those on Universal credit and this limits you from finding the right candidate !

In addition, it is unpaid so you may find that candidates are unwilling to do this when they can just claim Universal Credit. As it has been highlighted already, this has been tried before and didn't work. Alex

 

[Porky]

Well on the basis we have established it’s a revamped scheme for the unemployed we can safely say that it’s going to be of next to bugger all use in combatting youth unemployment.

I really don’t get it, what we need are some set subsidised schemes in conjunction with a qualification. Just extend the current apprenticeship program and job done.

I totally agree with Jeremy, as awful as it sounds I don’t want a work shy 24 year old youth that’s been on UC, I want a fresher straight out of college that’s keen that I can train up. If I’m putting resources into training I want them to work at it - I want the cream of the crop!

 

[Porky]

In addition, it is unpaid so you may find that candidates are unwilling to do this when they can just claim Universal Credit. As it has been highlighted already, this has been tried before and didn't work. Alex

Antropy,

It gets worse.... if you are saying it’s unpaid work to train them where is the £2billion to “Kickstart” them being spent exactly?

Just amazing....

 

[Mr D]

Antropy,

It gets worse.... if you are saying it’s unpaid work to train them where is the £2billion to “Kickstart” them being spent exactly?

Just amazing....

Its got to be administered!

People have to design forms, have meetings about what paperwork is needed. Design adverts. Form focus groups. Develop training materials for the staff administering the scheme.

Lots to do to spend the money and it will indeed be well spent. Just the aspect of people getting jobs..... not so much.
But they are not the focus. They are an effect, not a feature.

 

[Jeff FV]

Well on the basis we have established it’s a revamped scheme for the unemployed we can safely say that it’s going to be of next to bugger all use in combatting youth unemployment.

I really don’t get it, what we need are some set subsidised schemes in conjunction with a qualification. Just extend the current apprenticeship program and job done.

I totally agree with Jeremy, as awful as it sounds I don’t want a work shy 24 year old youth that’s been on UC, I want a fresher straight out of college that’s keen that I can train up. If I’m putting resources into training I want them to work at it - I want the cream of the crop!

it may not be as bad as you fear.

My son “did” his A levels this year, he possibly go to uni in a year or two, but had always planned to “take a year out” - he has no real idea what he wants to do - so he planned to work for a bit, save a bit of cash, maybe travel, but just in the main get a bit of life experience before embarking on the next phase of his life.

I’ve done some research - I think if he can’t get a job ( the pre-Covid plan would be that his Sunday job would become a 5 day a week job in September) he can go on Universal Credit - he wouldn’t get much cash but this would then make him eligible for the Kickstarter scheme. The same will be true for all school leavers and also those graduating university.

So I think you could get a school/college leaver on the Kickstarter scheme, but they may need to go on Universal credit first.

What you couldn’t do is use the Kickstarter scheme to employ a student for free (to you) for six months as if in full time education the student can’t claim universal credit.

 

[Rebecca_J_T]

I agree, Jeff. I think we have to remember that it's predicted that unemployment will rise over the next few months to over 11%. These are tough times for everyone, including young people just coming out of education. I'm not sure that the people looking for unpaid work are necessarily going to be the lazy ones.

I'd take a stab too at a proportion of young people who would otherwise have gone to university this year deferring or making other decisions where it seems likely that September's not going to bring the typical experience they were expecting! I suspect we'll see them stepping into apprenticeship roles which some of our new trainees might otherwise have been taking up.

 

[Mr D]

I agree, Jeff. I think we have to remember that it's predicted that unemployment will rise over the next few months to over 11%. These are tough times for everyone, including young people just coming out of education. I'm not sure that the people looking for unpaid work are necessarily going to be the lazy ones.

I'd take a stab too at a proportion of young people who would otherwise have gone to university this year deferring or making other decisions where it seems likely that September's not going to bring the typical experience they were expecting! I suspect we'll see them stepping into apprenticeship roles which some of our new trainees might otherwise have been taking up.

Trouble is some of these apprenticeship roles are …. just low paid staff, nothing more.
Poor or non existent training outside the work environment, providers that place the youngsters then disappear, delays in paperwork, basically an excuse some companies have for cheap labour.
The apprentice system had its problems prior to this year. Chuck more money at it, won't necessarily improve matters. Just mean more money to siphon out for admin, placement, 'training' / dossing etc.

 

[Rebecca_J_T]

Totally agree about the apprenticeship scheme. I suppose my point is that I'm expecting we'll see a "bumping" of typical candidates from apprenticeships onto traineeships and so I'm not sure that the young people looking at traineeships will be lazy kids on universal credit.

 

[Porky]

Surely this is wrong at every level...

You are basically saying that the chain of flow should be education.. UC....traineeship. Ie actively promoting the fact that the child have some form of state aid before they get on the work ladder?

I never thought I would say this as an employer, I even have a son at University and would be an advocate of him doing an unpaid internship if it meant him picking up vital job skills BUT I would really expect the employer to be paying something frankly. It just doesn’t sit right with me having youth employed for free by a business.

There should be proper accredited training programs available to all students, the chain flow should be education... training program... employment. (UC shouldn’t even be a consideration - UC should be an absolute desperate last resort only when all other options have been exhausted imo)

I have never been on benefit my entire life and I started working at 14 weekend jobs/ after school, left school at 16 and I’m 52 now! This is a crazy suggestion being proposed.

 

[STDFR33]

I know someone that left school after their a levels last year. They didn’t want to be indebted with uni and got a hospitality job until they could get a trainee job. They’ve now been made redundant and the chances of finding a trainee job greatly diminished.

The measures are so that we don’t have a nation of youth out of work with no employment skills that will see them on UC or low paid jobs for the rest of their lives.

 

[Mr D]

Surely this is wrong at every level...

You are basically saying that the chain of flow should be education.. UC....traineeship. Ie actively promoting the fact that the child have some form of state aid before they get on the work ladder?

I never thought I would say this as an employer, I even have a son at University and would be an advocate of him doing an unpaid internship if it meant him picking up vital job skills BUT I would really expect the employer to be paying something frankly. It just doesn’t sit right with me having youth employed for free by a business.

There should be proper accredited training programs available to all students, the chain flow should be education... training program... employment. (UC shouldn’t even be a consideration - UC should be an absolute desperate last resort only when all other options have been exhausted imo)

I have never been on benefit my entire life and I started working at 14 weekend jobs/ after school, left school at 16 and I’m 52 now! This is a crazy suggestion being proposed.

Proper accredited training programs? Like the YTS was?
Government not exactly good at designing training programs. And takes time to set up.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Proper accredited training programs? Like the YTS was?
Government not exactly good at designing training programs. And takes time to set up.

I was thinking more 'National Service!' But, let's not go there - For the time being

 

[Mr D]

I was thinking more 'National Service!' But, let's not go there - For the time being

Ok let's save that for next year.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Ok let's save that for next year.

First, Second, Third or Fourth Quarter? - NOT forgetting Internment for the 'Over 75 TV Licence Dodgers!'

 

[Jeff FV]

Surely this is wrong at every level...

You are basically saying that the chain of flow should be education.. UC....traineeship. Ie actively promoting the fact that the child have some form of state aid before they get on the work ladder?

I never thought I would say this as an employer, I even have a son at University and would be an advocate of him doing an unpaid internship if it meant him picking up vital job skills BUT I would really expect the employer to be paying something frankly. It just doesn’t sit right with me having youth employed for free by a business.

There should be proper accredited training programs available to all students, the chain flow should be education... training program... employment. (UC shouldn’t even be a consideration - UC should be an absolute desperate last resort only when all other options have been exhausted imo)

I have never been on benefit my entire life and I started working at 14 weekend jobs/ after school, left school at 16 and I’m 52 now! This is a crazy suggestion being proposed.

I agree that it is the wrong flow of events - having to go onto UC as a trigger to access this scheme - but if that’s what my 18 yr old school leaving son needs to do to get a job, albeit for only 25 hours a week for six months, then so be it.

 

[Bob Morgan]

I agree that it is the wrong flow of events - having to go onto UC as a trigger to access this scheme - but if that’s what my 18 yr old school leaving son needs to do to get a job, albeit for only 25 hours a week for six months, then so be it.

Advise him to LEAVE THE COUNTRY! - AND, SOON!

 

[Jeff FV]

Advise him to LEAVE THE COUNTRY! - AND, SOON!

Well sadly, his opportunity to work in 27 other countries has recently revoked

 

[Bob Morgan]

Well sadly, his opportunity to work in 27 other countries has recently revoked

The WORLD is far bigger than 27 Countries!

 

[Mr D]

First, Second, Third or Fourth Quarter? - NOT forgetting Internment for the 'Over 75 TV Licence Dodgers!'

Third by choice.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Third by choice.

I was erring towards August too

 

[Porky]

LOL Mr D,

Proper accredited training programs? Like the YTS was?
Government not exactly good at designing training programs. And takes time to set up.

Ok take your point!, You are right of course but we must be able to do better than this surely to God?

You will always get a percentage of abuse with these schemes I agree. That’s why the work should be alongside an accredited NVQ or the training program itself accredited in some way to ensure the student is getting adequate training and not being used as cheap labour.

I remember my cousin in 1984 dreamed of being a chef, he was given this YTS program in catering at a well known football club. He was so excited with visions of putting culinary delights in front of players.

The reality was they had him spreading butter on slice after slice of bread to make sarnies. He started at 7 and finished at three after cleaning up, during that time he had spread butter on slices from about 30 loafs of bread - all for £27.30 a week - he was king of the butter spreaders.

Mind you, in the end the lad could rustle you up sandwich quicker than anyone I ever knew, so some good came out of it.... ?

 

[Mr D]

LOL Mr D,



Ok take your point!, You are right of course but we must be able to do better than this surely to God?

You will always get a percentage of abuse with these schemes I agree. That’s why the work should be alongside an accredited NVQ or the training program itself accredited in some way to ensure the student is getting adequate training and not being used as cheap labour.

I remember my cousin in 1984 dreamed of being a chef, he was given this YTS program in catering at a well known football club. He was so excited with visions of putting culinary delights in front of players.

The reality was they had him spreading butter on slice after slice of bread to make sarnies. He started at 7 and finished at three after cleaning up, during that time he had spread butter on slices from about 30 loafs of bread - all for £27.30 a week - he was king of the butter spreaders.

Mind you, in the end the lad could rustle you up sandwich quicker than anyone I ever knew, so some good came out of it.... ?

My wife worked at an estate agents on the YTS scheme - as she was female and 16 she stayed in the office of course.
Lost the job at 18 of course - and she has a qualification from the Better Business College in typing.

Handy when got her to type up a 2 hour speech as part of my dissertation appendix.

Yes, be nice if we could get some decent qualifications put together that weren't degree and weren't simply for the sake of it.

What is useful but not dangerous? Just don't let government decide.

 

[antropy]

So I think you could get a school/college leaver on the Kickstarter scheme, but they may need to go on Universal credit first.

This is why it makes no sense. You have to claim benefits first before you can get onto the scheme... I said before people will go on benefits and then have no drive to go on the Kickstarter scheme as they can just stay on the benefits. Baffles me! Alex

 

[Mr D]

This is why it makes no sense. You have to claim benefits first before you can get onto the scheme... I said before people will go on benefits and then have no drive to go on the Kickstarter scheme as they can just stay on the benefits. Baffles me! Alex

Some will have the drive, just forced onto benefits in order to utilise the help available.

We aren't writing off an entire generation. It just looks like we are.

 

[Porky]

This is why it makes no sense. You have to claim benefits first before you can get onto the scheme... I said before people will go on benefits and then have no drive to go on the Kickstarter scheme as they can just stay on the benefits. Baffles me! Alex

Absolutely agree! It’s simply because they will get the same money irrespective of if they turn up for work or not. They are effectively volunteering which means a percentage of them that will be encouraged to apply for your placement, probably by job centre plus or whatever it is these days, won’t give the employer the commitment.

I appreciate we want to help the long term unemployed but benefit should be the last resort. Those leaving education should not be encouraged to go on benefit in order to be considered for a training scheme - this is a serious blunder imo if this is how the scheme is going to work

 

[lesliedocherty]

In addition, it is unpaid so you may find that candidates are unwilling to do this when they can just claim Universal Credit. As it has been highlighted already, this has been tried before and didn't work. Alex

I read it as they get minimum 30 hrs a week at minimum wage ?

 

[Porky]

The details of the scheme have now been published. This is why the scheme Imo won’t work:-

He’s dropped the ball by effectively forcing our youth to go on benefit rather than state aid being the last resort. You can only use the scheme to take youth off benefits.

So let’s take a real life example of how this works:

If I take a young member on to train in my business aged 21-24 the minimum wage rate is £8.20. On a 37.5hr week that’s £ 307.50 per week or £ 16k p.a to employ on the current basis.
So for six months they will cost me £8k plus oncosts.

If I take someone not working off the dole to train, I will get 25 hrs per week paid by the government for the first 6 months so I will be contributing £102.50 per week in my example. The government paying the rest.
So for the six months they will cost me £2,665 and I will save just over £5k then I’m on the same terms as above.

However, in the second example, with so many people being laid off work I can recruit someone with a few years work experience behind them on £16k so why would I bother? The saving isn’t enough to justify the hassle?

Alternatively, I can take a graduate on straight out of university and again avoid risking a potential lack of commitment risk? Am I missing something here?

Imo schemes aimed at the long term unemployed should not be classed in the same group with general youth employment schemes. If the scheme is designed to stop “a lost generation” then I should be able to employ directly from college or university ANY youngster not just those on the dole?

 

[Zeb Buzz]

A month on and there still seems to be no information published on exactly how this is going to work - or at least I can't find anything

 

[antropy]

A month on and there still seems to be no information published on exactly how this is going to work

I think you will be waiting a good deal longer as well! Alex