THAMES WATER
- Thread starter Bob Morgan
- Start date
A regulator whose role is to safeguard the water companies' investors, not the public or the environment; profitising a service that is required for human existence; greed; stupidity.
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The regulator did mention it to them, apparently in passing.
A Government source pointed out that industry regulator Ofwat raised the issue in December in its 2021/22 Monitoring Financial Resilience report, with Thames Water, Southern, Yorkshire, SES and Portsmouth mentioned.
Ministers work up Thames Water plan as regulator keeps watch on sector debts
Thames Water is seeking to raise cash from investors as it struggles under a £14 billion debt pile.
www.independent.co.uk
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The audotors appear to be PricewaterhouseCoopers. Their latest report is here.
I haven't read it all but it appears they had no concerns.
I haven't read it all but it appears they had no concerns.
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T
The Byre
In a company that has a guaranteed monopoly, all you have to do is bleed the sucker dry by pumping (ha! ha!) as much money as possible out and into your own corporate profits and then sell the damn thing off.
When Margaret Thatcher privatised Britain’s water, she wrote off its £5bn of debt and added a further £1.5bn government subsidy to help them on their way.
30 years later, water companies have amassed a whopping £60bn of debt built up during years of artificially low-interest rates. Them days is over! The whole water industry is now struggling under a financial millstone of their own making.
But this is a harbinger for a wider crisis brewing within corporate Britain. Dozens of top-flight companies, from Asda to Aston Martin, also loaded up on crazy-cheap debt when times were good. While politicians and regulators have been focusing on the recent mortgage crisis, the real challenge facing Britain may prove to be a looming corporate credit crunch. The Thames Water dilemma sits at the epicentre of UK Plc’s current debt crisis and the debt bubble.
Nearly all that debt was acquired when the company was owned by Macquarie (an Australian investment bank) between 2006 and 2016. Under its ownership, Thames Water’s debt rose to over 80% of its regulatory capital value (RCV), the metric used to determine the value of assets owned by utilities.
Macquarie claims billions of pounds were invested in upgrading Thames Water’s infrastructure during its ownership, critics point to billions more stripped out of Thames Water via dividends and loans. The company is now owned by a group of investors including the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System (Omers) and the Universities Superannuation Scheme (USS), Britain’s biggest pension fund. They are now left holding the baby! They injected £500m into Thames Water last year but are so far resisting handing over another £1 billion requested by the business.
Thames Water said earlier this week that it was “continuing to work constructively with its shareholders” as it seeks more funding for its turnaround plan. In plain English, they are looking at the taxpayer and saying "Buddy, can you spare a dime - well, a few billion actually!"
But Thames is not alone. In December, water regulator Oftwat warned that it had concerns about the financial resilience of five water companies, including Thames - they are loaded with more than £60bn of debt, nearly all taken on during the low-interest rates that followed the global financial crisis in 2007-8. To make matters worse, more than half of Thames Water’s debt is also linked to inflation, which is common in that sector.
“The value of index-linked debt generally grows with inflation. With more than 50% of debt in the sector indexed to inflation, and with the vast majority being linked to RPI, the impact as of 31 March 2022 has been material.”
But there is a wider debt problem across the broader economy.
Warnings about high levels of corporate debt are nothing new, but concerns are intensifying. Back in 2019, the Bank of England warned that a vast corporate debt bubble posed a fundamental threat to financial stability.
In 2021, governor Andrew Bailey issued a further warning: “Companies that increase their leverage beyond levels that are safe and sustainable are in a much less resilient position when a shock comes along – and we’ve had a very big one. The very clear message should be to companies – leverage matters. It matters to the resilience of your own financial position. Therefore you need to have regard to it.”
The BoE recently stated "There are a number of vulnerable companies with low liquidity, weak profitability, or high leverage. And some businesses are facing other pressures from higher costs of servicing debt, weaker earnings, and continued supply chain disruption. These pressures are expected to continue to increase over 2023, especially for smaller companies that are less able to insulate themselves against higher rates.”
Major British companies that have amassed significant debt piles in recent years through what is euphemistically called 'financial engineering' include many household names. In March, Aston Martin revealed that its annual losses more than doubled, driven by expensive debt - the cost of servicing its high-interest debt hit £139m p.a.
Asda is in the hole for £6bn and the supermarket’s £2.3bn petrol station deal with EG Group – another business owned by Moshin Issa and brother Zuber – has led to the supermarket being loaded up with even more debt.
Morrisons was left with around £6bn of debt after the supermarket was bought by PE company CD&R; Heathrow Airport’s holding company has debts of £19bn and the AA, which has shifted repeatedly between private equity and the stock market, has £2.3bn of net debt.
None of these companies claim to be in difficulties but servicing eye-wateringly high debt piles is becoming harder.
While politicians frett over rising mortgage costs, the impact of higher interest rates risks causing havoc in sections of the economy that the UK public has taken for granted as pillars of corporate stability.
The economic elephant is the US and it is about to go into a recession. When that happens, they can export their inflation by issuing yet more bonds - that is one of the many advantages of having the world's reserve currency. When that happens, the elephant rolls over and crushes the mouse.
As Cyndy states, PwC at it again!
You are dealing here with a government that is grossly incompetent and is staggering from one crisis to another. At the same time, the regulator Oftwat has neither the power nor the desire (i.e. the balls or the ability) to point out the blindingly obvious - corporate stripping by means of debt.
When Margaret Thatcher privatised Britain’s water, she wrote off its £5bn of debt and added a further £1.5bn government subsidy to help them on their way.
30 years later, water companies have amassed a whopping £60bn of debt built up during years of artificially low-interest rates. Them days is over! The whole water industry is now struggling under a financial millstone of their own making.
But this is a harbinger for a wider crisis brewing within corporate Britain. Dozens of top-flight companies, from Asda to Aston Martin, also loaded up on crazy-cheap debt when times were good. While politicians and regulators have been focusing on the recent mortgage crisis, the real challenge facing Britain may prove to be a looming corporate credit crunch. The Thames Water dilemma sits at the epicentre of UK Plc’s current debt crisis and the debt bubble.
Nearly all that debt was acquired when the company was owned by Macquarie (an Australian investment bank) between 2006 and 2016. Under its ownership, Thames Water’s debt rose to over 80% of its regulatory capital value (RCV), the metric used to determine the value of assets owned by utilities.
Macquarie claims billions of pounds were invested in upgrading Thames Water’s infrastructure during its ownership, critics point to billions more stripped out of Thames Water via dividends and loans. The company is now owned by a group of investors including the Ontario Municipal Employees Retirement System (Omers) and the Universities Superannuation Scheme (USS), Britain’s biggest pension fund. They are now left holding the baby! They injected £500m into Thames Water last year but are so far resisting handing over another £1 billion requested by the business.
Thames Water said earlier this week that it was “continuing to work constructively with its shareholders” as it seeks more funding for its turnaround plan. In plain English, they are looking at the taxpayer and saying "Buddy, can you spare a dime - well, a few billion actually!"
But Thames is not alone. In December, water regulator Oftwat warned that it had concerns about the financial resilience of five water companies, including Thames - they are loaded with more than £60bn of debt, nearly all taken on during the low-interest rates that followed the global financial crisis in 2007-8. To make matters worse, more than half of Thames Water’s debt is also linked to inflation, which is common in that sector.
“The value of index-linked debt generally grows with inflation. With more than 50% of debt in the sector indexed to inflation, and with the vast majority being linked to RPI, the impact as of 31 March 2022 has been material.”
But there is a wider debt problem across the broader economy.
Warnings about high levels of corporate debt are nothing new, but concerns are intensifying. Back in 2019, the Bank of England warned that a vast corporate debt bubble posed a fundamental threat to financial stability.
In 2021, governor Andrew Bailey issued a further warning: “Companies that increase their leverage beyond levels that are safe and sustainable are in a much less resilient position when a shock comes along – and we’ve had a very big one. The very clear message should be to companies – leverage matters. It matters to the resilience of your own financial position. Therefore you need to have regard to it.”
The BoE recently stated "There are a number of vulnerable companies with low liquidity, weak profitability, or high leverage. And some businesses are facing other pressures from higher costs of servicing debt, weaker earnings, and continued supply chain disruption. These pressures are expected to continue to increase over 2023, especially for smaller companies that are less able to insulate themselves against higher rates.”
Major British companies that have amassed significant debt piles in recent years through what is euphemistically called 'financial engineering' include many household names. In March, Aston Martin revealed that its annual losses more than doubled, driven by expensive debt - the cost of servicing its high-interest debt hit £139m p.a.
Asda is in the hole for £6bn and the supermarket’s £2.3bn petrol station deal with EG Group – another business owned by Moshin Issa and brother Zuber – has led to the supermarket being loaded up with even more debt.
Morrisons was left with around £6bn of debt after the supermarket was bought by PE company CD&R; Heathrow Airport’s holding company has debts of £19bn and the AA, which has shifted repeatedly between private equity and the stock market, has £2.3bn of net debt.
None of these companies claim to be in difficulties but servicing eye-wateringly high debt piles is becoming harder.
While politicians frett over rising mortgage costs, the impact of higher interest rates risks causing havoc in sections of the economy that the UK public has taken for granted as pillars of corporate stability.
The economic elephant is the US and it is about to go into a recession. When that happens, they can export their inflation by issuing yet more bonds - that is one of the many advantages of having the world's reserve currency. When that happens, the elephant rolls over and crushes the mouse.
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The problem now is that a water company cannot be allowed to fail - the water supply and (some) sewage treatment cannot be stopped. So what happens? The government preferred option seems to be a bale (sic ? ) out by the government, called a temporary nationalisation. Presumably this means that the government will deal with the debt and the necessary investment to keep the water supply going and then return it to its 'owners'. Repeating what has been done with the banks - let the shareholders keep their profits but shield them from the risks. I cannot see how that makes them private companies.
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Aren't all utilities more or less natural monopolies? I mean, there's only one electricity grid, it's the same set of electrons coming down the line, the same molecules coming down the pipe etc. The only way a market can be made to work in these industries is artificially.
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Which is why they should never have been privatised. Even the railways do not properly lend themselves to privatisation - the tracks are a monopoly, although there can be competition on the actua transport element. The reality is that there is little genune competition.
Sme may not be surprised to learn tha I think they should all be re-nationalised, and the bus services. Anything that is a public service should not be subject to a profit-requiring owner. Including, for example, children's care homes and, probably adult care homes.
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Railways are a different case IMO. The way the railways have been privatised here is just ridiculous. One company owns the track and other companies run the trains, so Network Rail just disrupts operations as and when they please, with no consideration to keeping trains running on time or when the network might be busy (such as on Bank Holiday weekends).
It could be done far better - I can think of several countries where it has, one in particular, where the trains run on time, are clean, doesn't cost an arm and a leg and actually go where people want them to go (and many places where people don't go that often). You can probably guess where I'm thinking of.
British railways are a joke. It took 20 years for the Elizabeth Line to open. In the same time, Bangkok has managed to build and open 2 underground lines, 2 elevated train lines, a monorail line, an airport link line, 2 urban railway lines and a bus rapid transit line.
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Those accounts were for its (one of several) financing company. The main trading company appears to be Thames Water Utilities Limited of which its outgoing CEO, Sarah Bentley, said in the annual report:
We want future generations to look back at this period and know that we “got things right” this time.
Well we are certainly looking back.
TWUL appears okay operationally but has heavy debts to service. This is directly inter-company but there are layers and forms of cross guarantees given. I suspect TWUL is the only company within the Group actually receiving any notable revenue to service the group wide debt.
Audit reports are generally not worth the paper they are written on. There would have been competent accountants working within the Group who would have foreseen the problems but probably feared to speak out. PWC should come under scrutiny for the quality of their work. Ultimately they rightly drew attention to the issues but concluded all was well. Whether being retained for the following year audit had anything to do with it - we can speculate. They also conveniently qualified going concern to twelve months only; that deserves attention in itself.
You could spend a lot more time on reading the accounts and get a clearer picture - but that was my five minute take on them - without trying to unravel the complexities.
PS The audit report was signed 5 July 2022 and Directors’ Report referred to plans considered on 29 June 2022; embarrassing.
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If your business or my business could no longer pay its bills, there are protocols for what happens next.
Administrators or liquidators.
That's what ought to happen in this case too.
Just because it's "too big to fail" should not change the principle. Shut down the failing company one day and re-open the next day "under new management".
For something that's a necessary public service, the government could guarantee running costs in the intervening period. They're going to pick up the tab anyway. But at least this way the people who let poor management continue wouldn't benefit.
Administrators or liquidators.
That's what ought to happen in this case too.
Just because it's "too big to fail" should not change the principle. Shut down the failing company one day and re-open the next day "under new management".
For something that's a necessary public service, the government could guarantee running costs in the intervening period. They're going to pick up the tab anyway. But at least this way the people who let poor management continue wouldn't benefit.
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The railways worked very well when private. Unfortunately the system was completely broken after WWII due to the herculean effort towards the war effort without corresponding investment to keep up. Like most/all state owned enterprises, British Railways was an utter shambles.
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This is a BBC radio skit I wrote in 1992. It seems not much has changed in 30 years....
VOICE : Look dear, it’s Roy Watts – Chairman of Thames Water.
WATTS: Mornin’ squire. Watts is the name, water’s the game. Your lucky day. Have I got a deal for you !
Look at these reservoirs. Just look at them dear, don’t drink the merchandise. Ruin my profit margin. Hah hah. Only joking!
Fifty million cubic litres of Gods best. Finest in the country. Hardly treated – part from some toxic run-off of course. Hah hah. Only joking!
You can’t buy water of this quality anywhere else you know. Fact is, you can’t buy any water anywhere else.
And what am I asking for this precious fluid ? I’m not asking £1000 a quarter. I’m not asking £500 a quarter. No, for you squire it’s just £250 a quarter. How about it then ? Cut me own throat but I’m feeling generous today.
What’s that my son ? Too expensive ! What about my overheads ? There’s Directors salaries to pay, end-of-year-bonuses, share option schemes.
Look. Tell you what I’ll do. £200 a quarter and I’ll throw in a hosepipe ban. Can’t say fairer than that.
ENDS
VOICE : Look dear, it’s Roy Watts – Chairman of Thames Water.
WATTS: Mornin’ squire. Watts is the name, water’s the game. Your lucky day. Have I got a deal for you !
Look at these reservoirs. Just look at them dear, don’t drink the merchandise. Ruin my profit margin. Hah hah. Only joking!
Fifty million cubic litres of Gods best. Finest in the country. Hardly treated – part from some toxic run-off of course. Hah hah. Only joking!
You can’t buy water of this quality anywhere else you know. Fact is, you can’t buy any water anywhere else.
And what am I asking for this precious fluid ? I’m not asking £1000 a quarter. I’m not asking £500 a quarter. No, for you squire it’s just £250 a quarter. How about it then ? Cut me own throat but I’m feeling generous today.
What’s that my son ? Too expensive ! What about my overheads ? There’s Directors salaries to pay, end-of-year-bonuses, share option schemes.
Look. Tell you what I’ll do. £200 a quarter and I’ll throw in a hosepipe ban. Can’t say fairer than that.
ENDS
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No different with privatisation - except we now pay horrendous ticket prices and all the profits end up overseas, protected from UK taxes.
Same is happening with the NHS, it's being eaten up by private suppliers over-charging for medication, services and agency staff. We pay more and get an even more broken service, then they say privatisation is the only way to save it, meaning we pay another 300% more and get...the same hospitals and staff we have now.
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- Original Poster
- #18
In fairness to ‘Our Lady of Grantham’ (Peace Be Upon Her), even she had concluded that the Post Office and British Rail were ‘Far too Complicated’ and should be seen as ‘Special Cases for Privatisation!’- Her successor thought differently!
Yesterday, I came across 3 articles related to UK Rail Travel. The first mentioned a Family of 3 travelling from Preston to Heathrow. The Return Price was over £1,000! (Paddington to Heathrow Transfers were NOT Included).
Another was an Expat, visiting the UK for a month on Annual Leave. With extensive travel, he bought a Cheap Car with VED and MOT for £450, and arranged Short Term Insurance – Rather than use Uncoordinated Trains, Busses and Taxis. At the end of the month and 3,000 Miles later, he sold the car for the same price!
Finally, a Train Enthusiast , ventured into the ‘Dark World’ of South West Rail! Leased ‘Voyager’ Train-Sets had been taken out of service, and had been replaced with Refurbished HST 125s His Journey from Plymouth to Edinburgh was in a 50 Year-Old Train – But still capable of 125 MPH where permitted. The ‘Final Irony’ being that a Diesel Train was running for long periods on Electrified Routes!
On the subject of Thames Water, the ‘Daily Fail’ dedicated as much as ‘2 Column Centimetres’ in a ‘Feature Article,’ that avoided all of the more salient points such as Money! However, others in the Water and Utility Industries have suggested that Thames Water is just the ‘Tip of the Iceberg!’ – Others are set to topple like dominoes, as has happened with Electricity. Thames Water has a £14 BILLION 'Black Hole' However, some have suggested that the problem nationally, could be in excess of £70 BILLION!
Yesterday, I came across 3 articles related to UK Rail Travel. The first mentioned a Family of 3 travelling from Preston to Heathrow. The Return Price was over £1,000! (Paddington to Heathrow Transfers were NOT Included).
Another was an Expat, visiting the UK for a month on Annual Leave. With extensive travel, he bought a Cheap Car with VED and MOT for £450, and arranged Short Term Insurance – Rather than use Uncoordinated Trains, Busses and Taxis. At the end of the month and 3,000 Miles later, he sold the car for the same price!
Finally, a Train Enthusiast , ventured into the ‘Dark World’ of South West Rail! Leased ‘Voyager’ Train-Sets had been taken out of service, and had been replaced with Refurbished HST 125s His Journey from Plymouth to Edinburgh was in a 50 Year-Old Train – But still capable of 125 MPH where permitted. The ‘Final Irony’ being that a Diesel Train was running for long periods on Electrified Routes!
On the subject of Thames Water, the ‘Daily Fail’ dedicated as much as ‘2 Column Centimetres’ in a ‘Feature Article,’ that avoided all of the more salient points such as Money! However, others in the Water and Utility Industries have suggested that Thames Water is just the ‘Tip of the Iceberg!’ – Others are set to topple like dominoes, as has happened with Electricity. Thames Water has a £14 BILLION 'Black Hole' However, some have suggested that the problem nationally, could be in excess of £70 BILLION!
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- Original Poster
- #20
My 'Local Rag' together with a few other Regionals has just published a 'Window Dressing' article on How Good and How Committed the local water companies are! Severn Trent is the second largest in the country, and Alarm Bells have been ringing there for a while! . . . But they're doing such a fantastic job of losing Billions!
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I will give you a first hand account of their inefficiency
20 years ago a infant school up the footpath behind my house was closed and amalgamated onto the junior school site - planning permission was given for 80 townhouses in it's stead - various locals said the sewers couldnt take it but TW forgot to put in an objection by the deadline so no requirement to upgrade was put in the planning permission
the winter of 2017/8 the council turned the footpath into a cyclepath and put in a wider tarmac path using a vibrating roller. Immediately afterwards we started getting a seepage around a sewer inspection cover half way down the hill level with the end of our garden
We reported and nothing happened - it got worse, various other people reported it - after about 6 weeks around about Easter a person from Lanes for Drains (TW got rid of all their own engineers and outsourced) came, looked at it and said "I reckon the pipe has collapsed at the bottom of the hill, it will all need replacing, it is pitch fibre anyway so end of life"
He put in a report suggesting 10m of pipe be relaid but TW came back saying "as you know in the first instance you must pressure wash it out"
They turned up to do it and warned us it would make things worse as blasting high pressure steam onto what is basically paper mache made with coal tar wasn't going to help it.
a week later we had a major sewerage leak as the pipe had completely collapsed
TW demanded a CCTV survey before the pipe relaying would be authorised, they then lost it, they then prevaricated and eventually in August they started work - between early June and late August they had to park a tanker truck near the front of our house and pump out the sewer every 4 hours (they could leave from midnight to about 6am by sitting waiting until it got to the brim before starting the pump). Lanes for Drain's ended up with the area manager sat in the cab of it as all his guys had hit their overtime limits imposed by TW - we were given the entire years water rates back (the most compensation they give) as were our near neighbours as we all lost use of our gardens for the summer.
If they had listened to the guy who did the initial survey at Easter they would have saved 10's or maybe 100's of thousands of costs but they have outsourced everything to differing vendors - have rigid procedures with nobody seemingly able to make holistic decisions and get the job done. When we had the water leak this year it took weeks as each lot who turned up found something had to be done by a different team who worked for someone else "oh that is over 3'6" deep it needs the deep excavation team who work for someone else- we will tell TW and they can contact that company" meanwhile a 9" main ran unchecked for 6 days over a bank holiday.
They managed to take everything bad about a large public sector body and everything bad about vc's and combine them in a single organisation rather than taking the good of each
20 years ago a infant school up the footpath behind my house was closed and amalgamated onto the junior school site - planning permission was given for 80 townhouses in it's stead - various locals said the sewers couldnt take it but TW forgot to put in an objection by the deadline so no requirement to upgrade was put in the planning permission
the winter of 2017/8 the council turned the footpath into a cyclepath and put in a wider tarmac path using a vibrating roller. Immediately afterwards we started getting a seepage around a sewer inspection cover half way down the hill level with the end of our garden
We reported and nothing happened - it got worse, various other people reported it - after about 6 weeks around about Easter a person from Lanes for Drains (TW got rid of all their own engineers and outsourced) came, looked at it and said "I reckon the pipe has collapsed at the bottom of the hill, it will all need replacing, it is pitch fibre anyway so end of life"
He put in a report suggesting 10m of pipe be relaid but TW came back saying "as you know in the first instance you must pressure wash it out"
They turned up to do it and warned us it would make things worse as blasting high pressure steam onto what is basically paper mache made with coal tar wasn't going to help it.
a week later we had a major sewerage leak as the pipe had completely collapsed
TW demanded a CCTV survey before the pipe relaying would be authorised, they then lost it, they then prevaricated and eventually in August they started work - between early June and late August they had to park a tanker truck near the front of our house and pump out the sewer every 4 hours (they could leave from midnight to about 6am by sitting waiting until it got to the brim before starting the pump). Lanes for Drain's ended up with the area manager sat in the cab of it as all his guys had hit their overtime limits imposed by TW - we were given the entire years water rates back (the most compensation they give) as were our near neighbours as we all lost use of our gardens for the summer.
If they had listened to the guy who did the initial survey at Easter they would have saved 10's or maybe 100's of thousands of costs but they have outsourced everything to differing vendors - have rigid procedures with nobody seemingly able to make holistic decisions and get the job done. When we had the water leak this year it took weeks as each lot who turned up found something had to be done by a different team who worked for someone else "oh that is over 3'6" deep it needs the deep excavation team who work for someone else- we will tell TW and they can contact that company" meanwhile a 9" main ran unchecked for 6 days over a bank holiday.
They managed to take everything bad about a large public sector body and everything bad about vc's and combine them in a single organisation rather than taking the good of each
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They can use whatever method they want but fortunately they will be assessed on the current auditing standards as set by the Financial Reporting Council. Although PWC restricted the going concern criterion to twelve months; TWUL failed in that. Maybe we will get to learn how robust their forecasting tools were and maybe even which software they used. Ultimately either poor judgement or manipulation of the numbers to achieve the desired numbers (on paper at least).
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I would not put it past them and what's more Bob would probably come on here and justify their reason for using it
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That is essentially what they're doing isn't it?
Maybe they owe Spongebob a few...bob..for the advice.
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- Original Poster
- #35
And, in other news . . . Zafar Iqbal Khan (Former Finance Director of Carillion Plc) has accepted an 11 Year Directorship Disqualification from the Insolvency Service. Litigation continues against other Directors. A 'Trial' commences during the week of 16 October 2023. (Reuters).
Carillion Plc went into Compulsory Liquidation in January 2018 owing £7 Billion and at the cost of 30,000 Jobs.
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Because a story about Thames Water won’t make them any money. A click bait article about a rear end does.
Both sites aren’t interested in the news. All they want is clicks. More clicks means more advertising revenue.
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M
MRQ
Panem et circenses? ...The Orwellian book-writing machines iterated for the 21st century ...OR Candy-Crushed morons?
It will be a contributing factor... yes.
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Strange situation eh. They sell what they charge us to take away. Actually the road gutter is fully blocked so nothing goes anywhere...
Banding is terrible, were 3% over the banding gap and get slammed the whole amount.
The price of corrupt company practices and stripping by debt as someone said earlier. I'll be using that one.
Banding is terrible, were 3% over the banding gap and get slammed the whole amount.
The price of corrupt company practices and stripping by debt as someone said earlier. I'll be using that one.
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