suspended from work, advice please

[Hemssy]

Hello i was hoping i could get some advice, I am currently suspended from work and have a disciplinary next week, i work for a large private waste company and have been suspended for '"totting" and face a gross misconduct charge. I have been with the company for many years and have an impeccable record i have never received guidance for this offence which has been born out of ignorance and also i have never had a copy of my contract or even seen one, im not sure what to say to help my case as i fear the worst but any suggestions welcome.

 

[Billmccallum]

Not enough detail to offer any real advice, much depends on exactly what you are bing accused of, where it happened and what the working practices are where you work.

Having said that, most waste disposal sites have a system for dealing with extracting items of any value throughout the system they operate, for example, selling licences for others to undertake totting.

 

[Kernowman]

You may not actually have a contract you say, but have you actually sighted your Terms and Conditions of Employment?

In it, it must state the various levels of industrial misconduct, what constitutes a minor infringement and the penalties (i.e, a verbal warning), what constitutes a major breach (what would attract a written warning) and finally, an instance of Gross Misconduct and the penalties - usually instant dismissal. Without seeing that document, you as an employee probably have no idea at all what could be classed as misconduct of any description.

The company obviously views what you did as pure theft of their property and are reacting accordingly. It matters not one jot if you have done this sort of thing for many years unchallenged so it has become "custom and practice". As I remember employment law, they don't have to PROVE that you have stolen anything, they just have to believe with "just cause" that you have been stealing.

You are entitled to see any evidence they have before the disciplinary hearing. You are entitled to take a fellow employee or your union rep (if you are a member) with you as witnesses. Your previous impeccable record should also be taken into account.

Until you see the charge in full it's difficult to second guess what will happen.

 

[Hemssy]

Basically what happened is that i took out of the back of our vehicle some items to keep in the cab ( deodarants ! ) of our wagon which we had just emptied from a bin into our wagon, and have been suspended for totting which they say is gross misconduct but i have never had a copy of my contract and although i signed an induction leaflet which covered totting years ago ( no-one went through this with me they just asked for a signature !) this is the first time i have ever heard of it .

 

[Kernowman]

That falls out of my definition of "totting" which I see as taking something of value and selling it on for cash.

I would not have though a small quantity of deodorant (how much was it?) constitutes a major industrial crime, certainly not one that warrants a charge of Gross Misconduct.

I say they are grossly over reacting in my opinion - a verbal warning would be sufficient, but then again I am not your employer.

So, before you go into this disciplinary hearing, INSIST you are given a copy of those all-important Terms & Conditions to study beforehand. If they baulk at that then ask for an adjournment until they do produce it so you can prepare your case. If you show that you are not going to roll over easily, it might make then think before acting hastily.

By the way, are you suspended with or without pay?

 

[Hemssy]

I have been suspended with full pay thankfully, it was about 5 deodarants and it was just to use inside the cab this was genuinely the first time i have ever got something out of the back as i am an honest person still cant believe its happening

 

[Kernowman]

So in actual fact, you only took these deodorants out of the back of the lorry and took them into the cab to basically "freshen it up" with a nicer smell because it's not in truth a pleasant environment to work in? So who reported you for this?

If what you say is the complete truth, then it isn't theft, it isn't "totting" by ANY stretch of the imagination, so the worst sin you have committed is relocating the deodorant from one area of the lorry to another and made no attempt to steal it. That isn't even a verbal warning offence.

It is a good thing that they have suspended you on full pay, because it they didn't pay you it makes the assumption you are guilty as accused before an investigation has been carried out into the facts. Have they carried out any formal investigation before announcing the disciplinary hearing? Has you seen a copy of the investigation? The company would be most unwise going for a disciplinary hearing without doing so.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Isn't totting the practice of taking something from the rubbish to sell on? It doesn't really matter whether it's perceived to be of value, just anything that you could find that you could subsequently sell.


In this case, I think the charges are reasonable - the perception, based on the information the employer may have at the moment, is that the moving of the deodorant was for totting purposes. (Wouldn't going through the rubbish at the back of a truck be misconduct anyway? Surely there is a health & safety risk by going through rubbish, regardless of intentions? You don't know what else is in the rubbish that could cause you personal harm, and what if the machine was activated while you were rummaging? The employer can amend the disciplinary charge as the facts emerge, if appropriate in the circumstances.)

Once you have your chance to explain the reasons, obviously I don't think any disciplinary charges should be brought for totting, but that shouldn't stop the employer from contemplating disciplinary charges. They should ideally be interviewing you as part of the disciplinary investigation, not simply bringing charges without you having had a chance to explain the circumstances though.


As for pay on suspension, this is an area that often causes confusion. Only if the contract allows for suspension without pay is this permitted. (Even then, an employer should consider requests for pay where there may be financial hardship to the employee.) Whether to suspend with or without pay is then entirely at the discretion of the employer, and it should be based on whatever grounds they care to apply, as long as this is nothing associated with suspicion (or otherwise) of guilt against the disciplinary charges; it can be sensible to set out the circumstances where suspension may be without pay, such as where there is a perception that the employer has suffered financial loss, or there is a risk of this in the future.

Suspension without pay during a disciplinary investigation is not a disciplinary penalty in itself (although this can, separately, be a disciplinary penalty where provided for in the policy - a useful option to provide something between a warning & dismissal), and should neither be used for this purpose or seen as being used for this purpose. Ergo, if an employee is subsequently found not to be guilty of any disciplinary offence, it would normally be appropriate to reimburse them for any loss of earnings during suspension without pay.


Karl Limpert

 

[Hemssy]

There has been an invetsigation where i gave my side of events in which i basically told the truth in which i moved some of the deodarants into the cab and have been told that there will now be a disciplinary. I have been told that there is cctv of a co-worker putting these deodarants into the cab as i didnt put them into the cab

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

There has been an invetsigation where i gave my side of events in which i basically told the truth in which i moved some of the deodarants into the cab and have been told that there will now be a disciplinary. I have been told that there is cctv of a co-worker putting these deodarants into the cab as i didnt put them into the cab

:| Did you move them into the cab, or was it a co-worker?

 

[Merchant UK]

Such a complete waste of resources and just typical of local authorities "Jobsworth"

The fact that you did not have them on your person to take home or in your locker, you cannot be told its theft. You moved it from one part of the lorry to another - All parts of the lorry belong to the council be it in the back or in the front.

Its like me going to tescos and nicking a bottle of gin, if i left it in the toilets and simply walked out without it, i can't be accused of theft because the bottle is still on company premises, even if you took the deorderant out the cab and into the office at the depot, its still council premises and the deorderant is still the property of the council, its not been removed from its property by you.

Firstly i would want to see the evidence where you have been acussed of totting and if no totting had taken place because you have not removed the product from council premises then you should have reasonable grounds to defend yourself.

In the meantime make sure the council don't use the anti terror laws to arrest you in your home and dig up your garden for furter deorderant??

Certainly not the lynx effect

Good luck

 

[Kernowman]

There has been an invetsigation where i gave my side of events in which i basically told the truth in which i moved some of the deodarants into the cab and have been told that there will now be a disciplinary. I have been told that there is cctv of a co-worker putting these deodarants into the cab as i didnt put them into the cab

So your employers have actually during an investigation sighted CCTV footage of your co-worker physically placing the deodorants into the lorry cab and they are holding a Disciplinary Meeting with the primary charge against you personally as "totting"? I don't think I have heard anything more absurd. You should certainly demand to actually see this CCTV footage and identify who did what.

Whatever disciplinary action they take, it looks like you may have good grounds for appealing if they are accusing the wrong person for the wrong industrial misconduct of totting, which clearly has not occurred.

Are these people mad? The Daily Mail would love this kind of story.

 

[Merchant UK]

Are these people mad? The Daily Mail would love this kind of story.

I'm looking for Richard Littlejohns email as we speak

 

[Hemssy]

my co-worker put them inside the cab but i admitted that i did take some out, thank you this has all been a big help

 

[Merchant UK]

my co-worker put them inside the cab but i admitted that i did take some out, thank you this has all been a big help

Good Luck Buddy

let us know the outcome

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

The fact that you did not have them on your person to take home or in your locker, you cannot be told its theft. You moved it from one part of the lorry to another - All parts of the lorry belong to the council be it in the back or in the front.

Its like me going to tescos and nicking a bottle of gin, if i left it in the toilets and simply walked out without it, i can't be accused of theft because the bottle is still on company premises, even if you took the deorderant out the cab and into the office at the depot, its still council premises and the deorderant is still the property of the council, its not been removed from its property by you.

The considerations for an employer are not the same as Tesco prosecuting for theft – for an employer, it doesn’t matter whether something left the premises, only whether there is a reasonable belief this was the intention.

my co-worker put them inside the cab but i admitted that i did take some out

I think there is a lack of information here. Hemssy, exactly who done what, and what are the charges you are now facing?



Karl Limpert

 

[Hemssy]

We both took took out a few items then my co-worker put them in a bag and put them inside the cab we are both suspended and we are now facing a disciplinary next week for totting - i havent heard what the outcome of the investigation is/was but have been told there will be a disciplinary, our only intentions were to freshen ourselves and our vehicle up then we discarded the items.

 

[yorkshirejames]

What utter rubbish.

Someone has to pay to landfill all this - you reducing the amount of waste (whether by taking a gold watch or a can of deodorant out) is a good thing!!

As an aside, where I live aerosol cans have to be recycled in a separate black box, not in the main bin. Surely you removing these aerosol cans from the main rubbish is you doing the right thing?

 

[David Griffiths]

Such a complete waste of resources and just typical of local authorities "Jobsworth"

... All parts of the lorry belong to the council be it ...

.... its still council premises and the deorderant is still the property of the council, .....

.... you have not removed the product from council premises t.....

..... council don't use the anti terror laws .....

Nice rant. Line of of the first post:

i work for a large private waste company

 

[Hemssy]

The deodarants were in the trade waste at a branch of a certain large retail chemists.

 

[sharon19711]

Hello i was hoping i could get some advice, I am currently suspended from work and have a disciplinary next week, i work for a large private waste company and have been suspended for '"totting" and face a gross misconduct charge. I have been with the company for many years and have an impeccable record i have never received guidance for this offence which has been born out of ignorance and also i have never had a copy of my contract or even seen one, im not sure what to say to help my case as i fear the worst but any suggestions welcome.

hemssy goss misconduct is a sack able offence do you not belong to a union