suing for slander

[ADAMATKIN84]

Just A quick post.
We have A rival company in Lincoln who has paced A fake review about us as his business has been slowly failing since ours started in the area.
What are my options is it possible to sue for slander. The other company comes on here alot and will no doubt read this post, but I am not mentioning names as I want to deal with this in the correct manor.
We have written to the review site asking for the ip address of the company in order to validate my claims so we will have this as proof.

I wouldnt mind but we pride ourselves on our work and we have some brilliant reviews from the last 3 years and this can sometimes damage A business.

Any advice welcome. And just in case the other leaflet distribution company is reading this. Good day to you and good luck when the **** hits the fan.

 

I think you are confusinf libel with slander?

Earl

 

[123Simples]

You would have to establish that the review is fake first, and then I'm guessing that the review site will say no anyway to your IP request. If you have nothing to hide then go on the site, and there should be an option for you to rebuff the review, but be careful that you do not appear rude or arrogant in doing so.

You could (since you say the other company participates on this forum) simply ask them to retract the review since in your opinion it is without warrant.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Indeed, Libel is the written word and slander is verbal.

If you can prove libel then do what you can to bring this to the attention to the website/review site. It will probably fall on deaf ears as they probably won't care about you as a company/individual, it could be they are more interested in 'hits on the site' .... Anyone who is in business is prey for ruthless companies/individuals who want to paint a picture of negativity and they can basically report what they like without any repercussion and until there is some form of government intervention, anyone, any company is a potential target.

Barbara

 

[cjd]

If you actually have proof, then you ask the review site to take it down and maybe get a solicitor to write a threatening letter so that they know you're no pushover. What you don't do is is get involved in libel actions.

But as you've had to ask for IP addresses - which they shouldn't give you - you probably don't have the evidence.

Every small busines over-reacts to poor reviews but generally they don't matter much unless they're on really important sites and there's too few other reviews to balance the outliers.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

You would have to establish that the review is fake first, and then I'm guessing that the review site will say no anyway to your IP request. If you have nothing to hide then go on the site, and there should be an option for you to rebuff the review, but be careful that you do not appear rude or arrogant in doing so.

You could (since you say the other company participates on this forum) simply ask them to retract the review since in your opinion it is without warrant.

These kinds of reivew sites are not entirely looking after the consumer as such, my opinion is they rely upon false claims/exaggerated claims to be made and the accused individual/company (who on the whole are innocent) then has to pay enormous amounts of money to get those comments removed - it's a business!! I know it doesn't help you or your reputation, but I will bet the moment something like this is reported you are then contacted by numerous companies promising to remove said negative comments for a fee £$£$£$£ .... this is what I personally HATE about these so called feedback sites - they are not moderated or managed and your next door neighbour can report you for something you have not done, then you have to spend time/money to prove otherswise.

Barbara - a litter older and wiser!

 

[lawrencerodkin]

I have a client who had a similar problem.

There is a civil wrong or tort of causing loss by unlaw means.

There is also the possibility of applying to the Court for an order of pre- action disclosure.

Please send a private message to myself if you wish me to run through the relevant issues.


Regards


Lawrence Rodkin
Partner
Simons Rodkin Litigation Solicitors
ww.sr=law.co.uk

 

[Vending Siting Services]

I have a client who had a similar problem.

There is a civil wrong or tort of causing loss by unlaw means.

There is also the possibility of applying to the Court for an order of pre- action disclosure.

Please send a private message to myself if you wish me to run through the relevant issues.


Regards


Lawrence Rodkin
Partner
Simons Rodkin Litigation Solicitors
ww.sr=law.co.uk

Thanks for quoting the above. Can you clarify in layman terms what it means please and what are the costs invovled. Thank you.

Barbara Fellowes

 

[ADAMATKIN84]

The review site in mention has very good standing on the web. We have now emailed the review site asking for them to email the person asking for proof they have used us. Which we know they deffinetly haven't.
I understand the other company may not be very happy with us, we have alot of their old customers. But we haven't taken them customers from them, the customers came to us because they weren't delivering the leaflets and magazines. However I deffinetly will do anything needed to pursue this as It is about time someone stood up to the these types of people who can't take a little competition and try to ruin other businesses because they are failing.
I know the company goes to alot of networking in lincoln, so I think I will make myself present as well just to keep them on their toes even more lol.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

The review site in mention has very good standing on the web. We have now emailed the review site asking for them to email the person asking for proof they have used us. Which we know they deffinetly haven't.
I understand the other company may not be very happy with us, we have alot of their old customers. But we haven't taken them customers from them, the customers came to us because they weren't delivering the leaflets and magazines. However I deffinetly will do anything needed to pursue this as It is about time someone stood up to the these types of people who can't take a little competition and try to ruin other businesses because they are failing.
I know the company goes to alot of networking in lincoln, so I think I will make myself present as well just to keep them on their toes even more lol.

Please keep us informed how you get on and good luck.

Barbara Fellowes

 

[ADAMATKIN84]

We have recieved an email from the review site who has mentioned that they will persue this. They couldn't give an ip address but they have said that they will email the company in question. The company has an automated answer on their email, so the review site said if that ip is the same as the one that matches the one given the review they will pull the review from the site.
They have also said if this is the case they will offer any written evidence if needed to pursue this.
In the meantime they said they will allow the person 24 hours to remove the listing themselves.

So lets see if this actualy helps. I would have thought as the company writes on here offering their services often enough and preaching that they are an honest company that they would be better than this.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Indeed, Libel is the written word and slander is verbal.

Sorry to be anal, but technically that is not correct (although it's normally the case).

Libel is defamation in the permanent form(which includes the written word) and slander is defamation in the transient form (i.e. verbal). Difference may be subtle, but can be important in practice.

OP, how do you know it is the rival business, and not a genuinely disgruntled customer?

 

[cjd]

This will tie you up in mental knots and legal bills if you let it. Put your business head on and work out the commercial pros and cons, it's not personal and it's not being right or winning that matters it's getting the best objective outcome. Don,t let it eat at you and spin out of control.

Of course, if you're a international conglomerate with a legal team the size of Belgum, go for it and ask them to let you know the outcome.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Sorry to be anal, but technically that is not correct (although it's normally the case).

Libel is defamation in the permanent form(which includes the written word) and slander is defamation in the transient form (i.e. verbal). Difference may be subtle, but can be important in practice.

OP, how do you know it is the rival business, and not a genuinely disgruntled customer?

In layman terms, can you please explain what the difference is from what I have quoted and what you have quoted, I am entreagued and would appreciate it. Thank you in advance.


Barbara Fellowes

 

[ADAMATKIN84]

The reason I knew it wasn't a disgruntled customer was because we have had no complaints.
The other company have also done things like this in the past so it isn't the first time. The last time they did they were found out by A review company itself and I was informed.
So I am almost 100% sure it was them. But I should know for sure when the review site in mention has done their work. Which I was shocked at how helpful they have been.
This won't affect my business as we are now have bookings right through to may 2012 but it is more the principal of it. This could have damaged our reputation and some other businesses aren't as fortunate to have the reputation and loyal customer base as we have. So it was more to make A stand to these types of people than anything.

Ill keep you posted how it goes.

 

[cjd]

Fcuk principle, look after business.

 

[Steve Sellers]

In layman terms, can you please explain what the difference is from what I have quoted and what you have quoted, I am entreagued and would appreciate it. Thank you in advance.


Barbara Fellowes

I'm being anal. Nothing wrong in layman terms, it's just people propound it and it is not technically correct. It did make me think though, because I can only vaguely remember from doing it in my law degree, which was quite a few years ago.

Libel is in the permanent (and published form). Say for example I say something defamatory about you now to my family, that would be slander. That however is then tweeted, thus becoming libel.

Another example would be if I posted a picture of you which in someway implied that you engaged in some unlawful act, this would be Libel as it is published in the permanent form - but nothing is in writing.

However, whilst slander is normally done by verbal words, 'words' includes pictures, visual images, gestures and other methods of signifying meaning - if those methods are impermanent in nature.

The reason I am being anal is because the rules of evidence for defending and mounting a slander or libel case change depending on the which it is. And therefore defending on the type(and on what was said) depends on whether or not the OP has to prove they have suffered damage to succeed in a claim.

The main jist of it is that permanent form=libel, non permanent=slander

 

[Steve Sellers]

I see OP. Please dont repeat what was said but could you give an indication of the kind of thing they were saying....for example did they suggest you conned them, or you were in anyway dishonest.

It is defamatory to use specific words like 'villain', 'rouge' and similar.

ps Sorry for the double posting. Mods please combine the posts if possible.

 

[lawrencerodkin]

To clarify there is a tort or civl wrong of causing loss by unlawful means.

The argument would run that to place or to allow to continue a false/untrue review on a public website, which causes potential financial loss/loss of business, comes within the ambit of this tort.

There are also of course defamation issues.

The tactic will be embark upon a pre action protocol process, with the threat of an injunction application if this procedure does not resolve the matter.

A Court also has power in it's discretion to order disclosure of documents in advance of actual proceedings being issued.

The legal costs of embarking upon these pre action procedures will of course have to be weighed against the commercial damage caused by the review.

There are also issues of any delay in taking legal action prejudicing the issue by the Court of an injunction.

The legal position is as can be perceived is very complex.

I hope that this helps in clarifying the issues.



Regards

Lawrence Rodkin
Partner
Simons Rodkin Litigation Solicitors

 

[cjd]

Or you just go out and shoot him, it would be cheaper and more certain of a result.....

 

[Nuno]

Or you just go out and shoot him, it would be cheaper and more certain of a result.....

Ah! A variation on your post #16: Fcuk the principal.

 

[Richie N]

The reason I knew it wasn't a disgruntled customer was because we have had no complaints.
The other company have also done things like this in the past so it isn't the first time. The last time they did they were found out by A review company itself and I was informed.
So I am almost 100% sure it was them. But I should know for sure when the review site in mention has done their work. Which I was shocked at how helpful they have been.
This won't affect my business as we are now have bookings right through to may 2012 but it is more the principal of it. This could have damaged our reputation and some other businesses aren't as fortunate to have the reputation and loyal customer base as we have. So it was more to make A stand to these types of people than anything.

Ill keep you posted how it goes.

Customers may not always complain direct to you but some may prefer to write reviews if they are unhappy with the service received.

 

[chalkie99]

It is defamatory to use specific words like 'villain', 'rouge' and similar.

I cannot believe it is defamatory to use the word "rouge" even if it does make the other person see red.

 

[ADAMATKIN84]

the review had made out that 4000 leaflets had been found in A skip in Welton. and that the customer comes from market rasen.
We havent had a customer in market rasen for nearly a year and they are still in contact with us now and still happy with the our service so i know it isn't them.
As for the skip in welton we went there and there is only one skip in the village and there are no leaflets there.
Over the last 3 weeks all our work has been in Peterborough, doncaster, grantham and Derby so we wouldn't be using distributors in Welton for this anyway as it is miles away.

I have contacted every customer we have had over the last 6 months via email and phone and every customer has said they are happy with the service they have had and have no complaints.

So I have done everything I can to make sure that it isn't A disgrumbled customer.
Ill just await the information from the review site and then take the matter further.
If I don't get any luck with it Ill just ask the other companies that use us after using him to leave their own feedback about him. Which I know is bad. Most of them haven't left bad feedback in the past because they said they realised what A nasty piece of work he can be when it comes to trying to ruin peoples reputation. But I am sure after this if it isn't saughted out they will be more than happy to write reviews and show what he is realy like.
We have three customers who have been using us for more than 12 months who used is services before. All three said their leaflets and magazines were never delivered. I would have named him on here so other people don't become victim to him but I don't want to ruin my chances of not getting anywhere with this case.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Or you just go out and shoot him, it would be cheaper and more certain of a result.....

But in doing so, the comment still remains on the site, maybe not such a good idea.

 

[cjd]

Horse's head in the site owner's bed?

 

[arcon5]

If I don't get any luck with it Ill just ask the other companies that use us after using him to leave their own feedback about him. Which I know is bad. Most of them haven't left bad feedback in the past because they said they realised what A nasty piece of work he can be when it comes to trying to ruin peoples reputation. But I am sure after this if it isn't saughted out they will be more than happy to write reviews and show what he is realy like.
We have three customers who have been using us for more than 12 months who used is services before. All three said their leaflets and magazines were never delivered. I would have named him on here so other people don't become victim to him but I don't want to ruin my chances of not getting anywhere with this case.

I wouldn't recommend this! You should never drag your customers into a dispute between you and a competitor, it looks very unprofessional...

 

[InPrintImaging]

I wouldn't recommend this! You should never drag your customers into a dispute between you and a competitor, it looks very unprofessional...

Ditto. Also, if you start a spat of some sort, this doesn't look good legally for your own case, and could even land you and your customers in court.

 

[123Simples]

These kinds of reivew sites are not entirely looking after the consumer as such, my opinion is they rely upon false claims/exaggerated claims to be made and the accused individual/company (who on the whole are innocent) then has to pay enormous amounts of money to get those comments removed - it's a business!! I know it doesn't help you or your reputation, but I will bet the moment something like this is reported you are then contacted by numerous companies promising to remove said negative comments for a fee £$£$£$£ .... this is what I personally HATE about these so called feedback sites - they are not moderated or managed and your next door neighbour can report you for something you have not done, then you have to spend time/money to prove otherswise.

Barbara - a litter older and wiser!

Hi Barbara
I do agree that review sites can be a complete nuisance - in fact did you happen to watch the programme on TV about Trip Advisor as an example? When business owners were hitting back at customers who left negative or petty reviews.

ADAMATKIN84 -
My advice too would not to be involving your customers in any kind of dispute (if I have read the thread correctly). You would be simply lowering your self to their level. I agree with the others on hanging on, and getting a suitable response from the website in question.

If you have not had a satisfactory reply within the time limits, then send another request letter saying that you will be contacting their hosting supplier and bringing this matter to their attention. Hosting companies do take complaints fairly seriously, especially if they believe that they could be on the end of a litigation matter.

Slander or libel?
There are two versions of defamation, libel and slander. Libel is when the defamation is written down (including email, bulletin boards and websites), and slander is when the incident relates to words spoken.

I think this page explains it very well: http://www.urban75.org/info/libel.html

 

[Steve Sellers]

Slander or libel?
There are two versions of defamation, libel and slander. Libel is when the defamation is written down (including email, bulletin boards and websites), and slander is when the incident relates to words spoken.

No, it isn't - for the reasons I stated above.

 

[arcon5]

No, it isn't - for the reasons I stated above.

Interesting points about the difference between slander and libel...

I think I understand what your saying, so for example... recording something being said on a dictaphone would be libel as it is in permanent form... something written in a chatroom without chat logs would perhaps be slander unless you screenshot it as once the chat screen is closed it is not permanent and will disappear.........................

 

[Steve Sellers]

Interesting points about the difference between slander and libel...
..

Yes basically. The rules are complex, but saying that it is as simple as slander equals words, and libel equals a written statement is unhelpful because the Court take a more complex view of it - and will greatly influence what the OP needs to do.

The difference is important, and what was said is also. Some forms of defamation you need not prove damage to reputation, some forms it is for the person publishing that defamatory statement(in whatever form) to prove that it is true. OP you have certainly done the right thing so far, and I would look to instruct a Solicitor who specialises in defamation law. Look for one who has experience of ACTUALLY litigating cases, and don't be afraid to ask how many.

Just bear in mind that it can be a very dear do.

 

[123Simples]

No, it isn't - for the reasons I stated above.

Steve - I'm not a legal person so I will just thank you for your post. I've gone back through the comments you made in the thread, and at the risk of being berated I would not ask you to explain how what you said here.

As far as I knew Libel = I write a comment that is untrue, or is offensive. If more than one person reads that comment it has become libellous. In defamation it is only necessary for one other person to read the defamatory statement. If more people see it, then my understanding is that this would aggravate the seriousness of the wrong done to you

Slander is if I mouth off at my computer but no one hears what I've said

Who knows, but that is why lawyers are there?
Thanks for pointing out what you did say though and sorry I missed it

 

[Steve Sellers]

Steve - I'm not a legal person so I will just thank you for your post. I've gone back through the comments you made in the thread, and at the risk of being berated I would not ask you to explain how what you said here.

Don't worry about it Simples. I just had a go at someone because I had misread a thread and looked dumb! :redface:

The thing is you aren't wrong per se in what you are saying. It's just it is not as cut and dry as that. I'll be honest I am certainly no expert in defamation law, it's just what I remember from my law degree, and I had to grab a textbook off the shelf to confirm.

 

[paulears]

Website comments are often viewed as libellous, even if they get removed because things like the way back machine retrieve the originals in many cases - thus people can still read them, and the scope for permanent damage is higher.

I'm a bit thick and have only just realised that the 'rouge' is actually 'rogue' - took me far to long to work it out!

 

[BeeDub]

OP - the only person who cares about these comments is you, and they will eat you up if you let them!

Your customers know your professionalism, and I'd suggest that the majority of internet users can tell the difference between real and fake reviews.......

We had our fair share of fictional comments on forums in the early days, from one of our competitors too. It dragged me down to a point where I'dve been happy to walk, but instead I simply stopped visiting those forums and focussed on MY business. Best thing I ever did.

We've doubled our turnover year on year and my competitor? Gone t*ts up I'm delighted to say!

 

[123Simples]

Don't worry about it Simples. I just had a go at someone because I had misread a thread and looked dumb! :redface:

The thing is you aren't wrong per se in what you are saying. It's just it is not as cut and dry as that. I'll be honest I am certainly no expert in defamation law, it's just what I remember from my law degree, and I had to grab a textbook off the shelf to confirm.

Thanks for that Steve - no worries
I too can make mistakes especially if like me, you are multi tasking at the same time. It's good to be here and have some chat - we all learn new things and so it must in the end be helpful. I love learning new stuff, and where I can I'll chip in my two pence worth (I suppose I would be showing my age to say tuppence)

 

[ADAMATKIN84]

Thanks everyone for all your help and input it is very much appreciated. Hopefully the site will take it down tomorrow. However as many people have put I wont't let this affect me as we are busier than the other business in question anyway so I don't think it will make much of A difference.

 

[123Simples]

Hi Adam

I just saw your rebuttal on the website where the spurious claims were made. I would suggest (I'm only guessing but it seems strange) that another comment came straight after using a new identity too

If I'm wrong I do apologise but sometimes it is easier to spot comments made by one and the same person A

 

[ADAMATKIN84]

Shortly after I emailed and phoned 4 customers who had used us this week and asked them if they would mind leaving some feedback in an attempt to deter people from that review, however seems I didn't need to. The review site has removed the other review and has said that they will offer any help we need to ensure that this kind of thing stops.

We spoke to A lady today who works for A solicitor firm nearby. She has had A couple of enquiries in regards to the other company and has said that there is something we could do about it if wanted. Apparently we could have A case as for A libel claim. But to be honest I think this would be playing into their hands and giving the attention they want.

We had A customer today who had been contacted them last week. Asked if her company had thought about leaflet distribution and would they consider using them. When she mentioned she uses us they were very abrupt and made ridiculous claims that they could deliver on A solus basis for £25 per thousand on A less built up area. She also said A few things that she already knew were untrue about our company as she has used us for 2 years.
It just seems A shame really that the other company has to be like this. They have shot themselves in the foot really because we often have too much work on and therefore suggest other companies to customers. But needless to say we won't be suggesting theirs lol.


Thank you everyone for your help and support though.
Have A merry christmas and a happy new year