Staff reluctant to drive to internal meeting 1.5 miles away because of no business insurance on car!

[nicebloke]

Hey all,

I've searched all over Google for an answer to this to no avail so hopefully you can help. We have a small company of around 20 staff and no longer have a meeting room available on site for our regular quarterly internal reviews.

So, I booked a meeting room at a local hotel so we could do the review there. It is less than 5 minutes drive away but probably a good 30 minutes walk. I am now getting push back from the staff saying they would need business use insurance on their car to drive to the meeting.

What are your thoughts on this? Would driving to an internal staff meeting constitute business use do you think? If so, it's a bit of a non-starter.

 

[Jim2k]

Staff eh, who'd have them! Id assume this would be business use unless you can argue its commuting somehow, but I'm no expert.

Just chipping in to say I'm seeing much more push back and take take take from staff recently. I'm assuming it's because we are back in the office and they'd rather not be.

 

[TeaRoomLady]

I’d organise a taxi for your staff.

 

[MBE2017]

Of course it is business use. Do you pay to cover their cars for business?

 

[nicebloke]

All our staff are office based from a single location so there has never been a requirement to cover their cars for business. I just thought it was a bit of a grey area as the travel is not part of their job. But I agree it's hard to see how it wouldn't be classed as business use.

Strangely they all seemed more than happy to drive themselves to the local pub for xmas lunch last year without business insurance!

 

[xjr13m]

Yes it is business use, it wouldn't be covered under a 'social, domestic, commuting' policy as it's not a permanent place of work. I guess you probably know this already but are frustrated by the push back. I wonder what the reaction would have been if you'd said "we're going for a meeting and then having a decent lunch/dinner" on the company...

 

[MBE2017]

Yes it is business use, it wouldn't be covered under a 'social, domestic, commuting' policy as it's not a permanent place of work. I guess you probably know this already but are frustrated by the push back. I wonder what the reaction would have been if you'd said "we're going for a meeting and then having a decent lunch/dinner" on the company...

I would have turned up at the restaurant after the meeting, car trouble and all that.

 

[nicebloke]

I would have turned up at the restaurant after the meeting, car trouble and all that.

???.

We are actually putting on food as well. OK, what if I let them finish early so that their journey is not compulsory. Would it then fit into social / pleasure ???

 

[NickGrogan]

our regular quarterly internal reviews.

I missed this bit at first. Maybe your staff aren't keen on these internal reviews.

Otherwise, teams or zoom are fine. Just set up a group video call around the office.

Or go and stand outside the office if they'd prefer face to face.

 

[IanSuth]

It is a valid concern. Some police forces have been particularly hot on it (Wiltshire being one) - there was a discussion on a motorcycle group a while back as an apprentice was done for no insurance on his moped.

When just at college it was fine as education is part of Social, domestic & pleasure. As soon as he became an apprentice, the days at college were part of his work so it was a "commute". Cover for that now has to be specifically requested on most bike polices (especially those aimed at youngsters).

Even Aviva (hardly a cheasp option) removed it as a standard as I had a mate who failed to notice that the little bit saying "please note clauses x y and z have been updated" when he renewed his policy (which he couldnt shift as he needed to keep the policy alive to continue having a "rider policy") , he was stopped in a random stop when the Police & DVLA were doing an enforcement blitz on the A303 and answered honestly when asked where he was going "to work in Basingstoke" only to be immediately read his rights and have his bike impounded for no insurance. Luckily the judge took pity when he turned up to plead guilty - judge asked why if he was pleading guilty he wanted to attend, he presented all the paperwork Aviva had sent him and asked the judge if he would have realised he wouldnt be covered but said he understood it was a strict liability offence so he knew he was guilty - judge said he wouldn't and gave him a 14 day ban and a minimal fine - it has screwed his renewal rates though

 

[Newchodge]

You are demanding that your staff commit insurance fraud and then complaining when they object. Put on a taxi each way.

 

[fisicx]

If I drive my wife to the station so she can get the train to work is this a business journey?

 

[Newchodge]

If I drive my wife to the station so she can get the train to work is this a business journey?

No. You are not in the taxi business. You are not driving at the request of your employer. The purpose of your journey is not to attend a work meeting.

 

[Mark T Jones]

If I drive my wife to the station so she can get the train to work is this a business journey?

No. Nor is driving to and from a fixed place of work.

Driving to and from meetings is though my insurance specifically includes driving to and from pre-arranged appointments- which can be tricky with online systems, but costs virtually no extra

 

[IanSuth]

No. Nor is driving to and from a fixed place of work.

Driving to and from meetings is though my insurance specifically includes driving to and from pre-arranged appointments- which can be tricky with online systems, but costs virtually no extra

Actually driving too and from a fixed place of work depends on your policy

Social Domestic and pleasure used to include commuting to and from a permanent place of work. That is no longer standard for younger drivers they have to request it. I guess it is a more "risky" type of driving and in a drive to cut premiums they have started dropping that type of driving as standard.

I have Class 1 business use (which means not carrying samples or driving for hire/reward) on my car and bike insurances. Neither cost more, they just needed to be specificed.

I have fully comp with class 1 and protected no claims on a 1300cc motorbike for £108 which I can't really complain about especially as that is with an agreed list of modifications like different handlebars and stainless steel exhaust

Read this from Admiral for instance

Which class of use for car insurance do you need? - Admiral

Admiral explains what social, commuting and the business classes of use mean, and the best one to choose to get the insurance cover you need.

www.admiral.com

Social Domestic and Pleasure​

The class of use described as Social, Domestic and Pleasure covers the drivers named on the policy for normal day to day driving. Shopping, visiting friends or family and pleasure driving such as going to the park or on holiday.

For Admiral, this doesn't include commuting to work, but some insurers only offer a combined class of use called Social, Domestic, Pleasure and Commuting. It’s best to check when you’re getting a quote to be sure of the cover you’re getting.

 

[nicebloke]

You are demanding that your staff commit insurance fraud and then complaining when they object. Put on a taxi each way.

At what point did I complain? I just want to fully understand the legalities of it. It seems pretty clear now that this would be classed as business use. What I am still a little unclear on is if they were allowed to finish early to attend the meeting as a social occasion (which it partly is)? It's the same argument as when attending the xmas lunch etc.

In reality I'm going to just book taxis for everyone but I's like to persevere with the above question as a point of discussion!

 

[fisicx]

Next question then, If my wife drives on a jolly laid on by her company is that a business trip or pleasure? What if she has a business meeting before the socialising?

Maybe this is something I need to investigate. It's possible I've been driving to meet people uninsured.

 

[IanSuth]

Next question then, If my wife drives on a jolly laid on by her company is that a business trip or pleasure? What if she has a business meeting before the socialising?

Maybe this is something I need to investigate. It's possible I've been driving to meet people uninsured.

I got so confused i went for the class 1 to be sure.

I was told the easy way to decide between commuting and class1 is if it is a journey you can claim the mileage on it is likely you need class 1 - if it is something you would need to cover yourself it is commuting to and from place of work, and if it is for pleasure purposes and non compulsory even though work related it is social/domestic & pleasure.

But i am not a mortgage broker - hence playing it safe

 

[nicebloke]

and if it is for pleasure purposes and non compulsory even though work related it is social/domestic & pleasure.

..exactly why I thought it was a bit of a grey area!

 

[IanSuth]

..exactly why I thought it was a bit of a grey area!

But if you are saying it is for a quarterly review meeting it is not really just a non compulsory social get together is it ?

 

[fisicx]

We need @Frank the Insurance guy to help out here!

 

[WaveJumper]

If I drive my wife to the station so she can get the train to work is this a business journey?

Surly its a pleasure for you ???

 

[WaveJumper]

Just get a member of your management team to ferry them backwards and forwards ....... do you have a team and are they covered for business use ?

 

[hikiwari]

I’d organise a taxi for your staff.

This,
Easy solution. Second reply to your original post.
3 x 7 seater people carriers x 5 minute journey = less than £150 total there and back.

 

[The Byre]

Cancel the staff meeting (waste of time mostly!) or get a room within walking distance.

And stop making mountains out of absurd molehills!

 

[MikeJ]

Admiral say this...

Commuting​

Commuting is the next class up, and covers everything included in Social, Domestic and Pleasure, plus driving to and from one place of work in a day. Driving your car to the train station and leaving it there while you go to work counts as commuting for some insurers.

So, if it's an all day meeting you're fine.

However, Confused say...

"This SDP+C car category offers additional cover for one single place of work."

Now that's not as clear - can you change the place of work for one day, then change it back again?

LV...

"We define this as social use including driving to one place of work as long as no business stop offs are made along the way."

Then we have this (from The Sun, but quoting someone from the British Insurance Brokers' Association...

Travelling to a railway station on route to work, where the car is parked, is usually classed as commuting.
The use does not allow you to drive to different places of work or, for example, to a training course for work at a different destination.

That would seem to say they're not insured.

 

[fisicx]

So if work sends you on a course they should provide transport of pay for your insurance.

 

[Ian J]

???.

We are actually putting on food as well.

How about a mixture of "in person staff" and teams for those that can't/won't make it with only those present benefitting from the apres meeting grub

 

[MOIC]

30 minutes walk

Demand they walk to the meeting!

 

[Newchodge]

At what point did I complain? I just want to fully understand the legalities of it. It seems pretty clear now that this would be classed as business use. What I am still a little unclear on is if they were allowed to finish early to attend the meeting as a social occasion (which it partly is)? It's the same argument as when attending the xmas lunch etc.

In reality I'm going to just book taxis for everyone but I's like to persevere with the above question as a point of discussion!

Which it partly is? So is it voluntary? What happens of 50% of the staff decide not to go?

You are looking for loopholes. This is a business meeting. Driving to it reqauires a car that has business insurance.

In case you had forgotten this

I am now getting push back from the staff saying they would need business use insurance on their car to drive to the meeting.

is when you complained.

 

[Newchodge]

So if work sends you on a course they should provide transport of pay for your insurance.

No they pay appropriate travel costs and insist that insurance covers the journey.

 

[DWS]

You could just pay them the recommended mileage rate of 45p a mile
Not sure how many would turn up or if you would have any employees left if you suggested this though!

 

[fisicx]

No they pay appropriate travel costs and insist that insurance covers the journey.

Which is where is all falls down. It's unlikely an insurerer would issue business cover for one journey there and back.

Just checked our policy and we get automatic business cover.

 

[DontAsk]

You could just pay them the recommended mileage rate of 45p a mile

How does that help with insurance?

I've never had to pay any extra for business use.

 

[DWS]

How does that help with insurance?

I've never had to pay any extra for business use.

The 45p is meant to cover insurance

 

[simon field]

Demand they walk to the meeting!

Absolutely this! Be eco, green, carbon-aware, woke, Thunberg-esque, whatever you want to call it!

A whole 30 minute walk? Phew. Sounds a terrible ordeal for the poor loves. Jesus give me strength.

 

[Ozzy]

Interesting thread, I’m actually wondering if I need to check my staff have business cover should they drive to the train station for a trip to a meeting in London.
I naturally cover parking and train travel, never considered if a journey to the local train station would be business travel outside scope of commuting to work.

 

[WaveJumper]

When employed I always had to submit a copy of my insurance to prove I had cover for using car for any work related excursions.

 

[ecommerce84]

The 45p is meant to cover insurance

But if his employees don’t have business insurance as part of their cover that still won’t entice them to drive - they’re unlikely to take out a policy for this trip.

3 miles @ 45p is £1.35. If they have an accident whilst driving too or from this meeting and they aren’t covered on their insurance they stand to be thousands of pounds out of pocket.

I’d either follow @The Byre suggestion of hiring somewhere nearer if possible or just round everyone up in the largest room or even outside if it’s nice.

 

[alan1302]

Absolutely this! Be eco, green, carbon-aware, woke, Thunberg-esque, whatever you want to call it!

A whole 30 minute walk? Phew. Sounds a terrible ordeal for the poor loves. Jesus give me strength.

They might not be able to walk that far though...