Someone explain this to me

[Chawton]

You cannot prevent it because 'The Great They' is busy printing money to appease the chattering classes doing their vox-pop interviews on TV channels nobody watches and in newspapers nobody reads anymore.

And all that printed money that 'The Great They' create will fire more inflation so that 'The Great They' has to print more and more and the OAPs huddled around Bob Cratchit's candle get even poorer because the little they had buys less and less.

There ain't nobody out there to rescue anyone - or as Ronald Reagan put it "The most terrifying words in the English language are 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help you!'"

As with most things, it's a question of doing the right thing vs doing what feels good.

A lot of the time the best way to solve a problem is painful. Other times it is actually quite oblique or counter intuitive. Only extremely rarely is it easy in the first instance.
What's clear to me is the means you adopt to solve a problem are not the same as the means you adopt to signal you care about a problem.
So if you want to signal you care about a problem you tackle it head on and go straight for it. Free money for all with Newchodge at the printing press, her shoulder firmly to the wheel!

Particularly if it's a persistent problem however it's almost never the best way to deal with it.

With any of these types of debates I've had to re-frame the question for the sake of my own sanity:
Do you want to look good or do you want to achieve a good outcome?
Sadly-probably now more so than ever-the need to signal that you care outweighs the actual value of making a difference.

We see it with just about everything across society and its desperately sad. Because you know the real solution requires pain and sacrifice. Or even just a moderate deferral of gratification. Instead our problems literally look like news reports of food banks on the rise while people wobble around with ham hocks for elbows.

I'm sorry but that is perverse.

Structural and cultural change is long, long overdue and politicians/the public sector (aka adult daycare) need to be as far away from the levers as possible.

The end of feel-good bromides, please! Some personal accountability! The more we teach ourselves we can't rely on ourselves to succeed the more we come to dislike ourselves.

 

[Newchodge]

As with most things, it's a question of doing the right thing vs doing what feels good.

A lot of the time the best way to solve a problem is painful. Other times it is actually quite oblique or counter intuitive. Only extremely rarely is it easy in the first instance.
What's clear to me is the means you adopt to solve a problem are not the same as the means you adopt to signal you care about a problem.
So if you want to signal you care about a problem you tackle it head on and go straight for it. Free money for all with Newchodge at the printing press, her shoulder firmly to the wheel!

Particularly if it's a persistent problem however it's almost never the best way to deal with it.

With any of these types of debates I've had to re-frame the question for the sake of my own sanity:
Do you want to look good or do you want to achieve a good outcome?
Sadly-probably now more so than ever-the need to signal that you care outweighs the actual value of making a difference.

We see it with just about everything across society and its desperately sad. Because you know the real solution requires pain and sacrifice. Or even just a moderate deferral of gratification. Instead our problems literally look like news reports of food banks on the rise while people wobble around with ham hocks for elbows.

I'm sorry but that is perverse.

Structural and cultural change is long, long overdue and politicians/the public sector (aka adult daycare) need to be as far away from the levers as possible.

So what do you actually suggest?

 

[Chawton]

So what do you actually suggest?

Productive mindsets? Personal accountability? Deferred gratification? Sacrifice?

Here's another terrifying thought. As a nation we congratulated ourselves about how well remote working carried us through Covid lockdowns. We told ourselves technology had saved us. Another feel-good bromide! Rejoice!

I offer you another explanation. It 'worked' well not because the technology has evolved, but because so many millions of people aren't employed in productive jobs. It didn't really make a difference if they were at their computers or not.

We know the public sector is a creaking warehouse of the unemployable but even the private sector harbours massive bloat and inefficiency.

This isn't a quick fix.

 

[Newchodge]

Productive mindsets? Personal accountability? Deferred gratification? Sacrifice?

Here's another terrifying thought. As a nation we congratulated ourselves about how well remote working carried us through Covid lockdowns. We told ourselves technology had saved us. Another feel-good bromide! Rejoice!

I offer you another explanation. It 'worked' well not because the technology has evolved, but because so many millions of people aren't employed in productive jobs. It didn't really make a difference if they were at their computers or not.

We know the public sector is a creaking warehouse of the unemployable but even the private sector harbours massive bloat and inefficiency.

This isn't a quick fix.

Let me try again. The energy prices mean that people will die this winter from cold and malnutrition. How do you propose that should be prevented, or is that just deferred gratification or sacrifice?

 

[Chawton]

Let me try again. The energy prices mean that people will die this winter from cold and malnutrition. How do you propose that should be prevented, or is that just deferred gratification or sacrifice?

Sorry for making you 'try'. I certainly didn't mean to put you to any effort. That's the last thing I would want from anyone in this day and age.

There will always be "here and now" problems. It's not a productive discussion (with you) though as-conveniently-it allows you to avoid introspection about difficult mid-to-long term decisions. Ie "sacrifices". I simply don't believe you're in good faith in that regard. Your politics are too tribal.

Trust you understand my reluctance to get involved in an unproductive debate.

 

[Newchodge]

Sorry for making you 'try'. I certainly didn't mean to put you to any effort. That's the last thing I would want from anyone in this day and age.

There will always be "here and now" problems. It's not a productive discussion (with you) though as-conveniently-it allows you to avoid introspection about difficult mid-to-long term decisions. Ie "sacrifices". I simply don't believe you're in good faith in that regard. Your politics are too tribal.

Trust you understand my reluctance to get involved in an unproductive debate.

I have always understood trolls.

 

[japancool]

There will always be "here and now" problems. It's not a productive discussion (with you) though as-conveniently-it allows you to avoid introspection about difficult mid-to-long term decisions. Ie "sacrifices". I simply don't believe you're in good faith in that regard. Your politics are too tribal.

So, why don't you suggest some concrete mid-to-long term solutions, rather than a string of meaningless buzz-words?

 

[Chawton]

So, why don't you suggest some concrete mid-to-long term solutions, rather than a string of meaningless buzz-words?

Because that wasn't what Newchodge was asking for. She wants pain-free solutions to the immediate.

Which words did you consider "meaningless" and buzzy btw?

 

[Newchodge]

Because that wasn't what Newchodge was asking for. She wants pain-free solutions to the immediate.

Which words did you consider "meaningless" and buzzy btw?

Where did I ask for that. Stop making things up when you can't answer questions.

 

[japancool]

Because that wasn't what Newchodge was asking for. She wants pain-free solutions to the immediate.

Which words did you consider "meaningless" and buzzy btw?

OK. Then I'm asking for your solutions.

 

[The Byre]

I offer you another explanation. It 'worked' well not because the technology has evolved, but because so many millions of people aren't employed in productive jobs. It didn't really make a difference if they were at their computers or not.

I love that thought! And yes, it's true - most people do tasks that, when push comes to shove, do not matter whether they are done or not.

So I walk into a shop and hand the salesman a piece of paper with the model of dishwasher I want and he gets the storeman who brings one out of the storeroom and I put it into my car. The salesman gets a small commission - for no good purpose. If anything, he stands between me and the dishwasher.

I visited an office recently and there was an office manager who did nothing, two clerks who were either playing around with social media or chatting on the phone with friends. Two more were working - one was selling and organising language courses and the other was doing the bookkeeping and chasing payments. So three out of the five were 100% useless but were costing that very small five-man company a staggering amount.

And that lamentable state of affairs seems to exist wherever payment is not by results, but by processes. I pay by results. It's a system that works! I do not pay for effort. Only results really count.

We know the public sector is a creaking warehouse of the unemployable but even the private sector harbours massive bloat and inefficiency.

Productivity is not only low, but falling!

Amazingly, I was talking to a Swedish business person who said that one of the main reasons that Scandinavian countries are so productive is because minimum and living wages are so high. He also pointed to high taxes and a far higher spend on education there.

"That is why we produce more billionaires per capita than almost anywhere else on Earth and social mobility is far higher!"

I asked how that works in practice and he continued, "You can never get rich employing a dozen unproductive and poorly educated workers at $7 an hour and they will of course remain poor. But you can get rich employing one well-paid and highly educated engineer operating an automated machine doing the work of one hundred workers. And of course, you will produce better products as a result.

"And think about the other end. Who can you sell all those better products to? You can't sell them to an army of poor people because they are poor. They are working for $7 an hour. You need rich people as customers."

He made sense! I looked up the figures and yes, he was right - if you discount unearned wealth, high-tax Scandinavia produces more billionaires per capita than anywhere else!

OK. Then I'm asking for your solutions.

I'll start -

Education. The state pays for the subjects society needs and the student pays for Media Studies, Philosophy, PPE and all the other pudding subjects. As for schools, that is just one huge can of worms that has to be looked at totally differently - schools everywhere (not just in the UK) are failing.

Proper apprenticeships and the requirement to have a master's certificate for certain trades such as electrician, plumber, builder and mechanic.

Reform property laws as I outlined on page one.

No more QE and pull down government spending on huge bureaucracies like the Home Office and the MoD. Put the spending where it is needed!

One simple tax code and no loopholes for this, that and the other.

Get rid of the NHS and replace the whole thing with European-style social insurance, with medical staff paid by the treatments and not by the hour. All doctors must qualify as surgeons to earn the title 'Dr'. Until then, they are just medical practitioners.

Mandatory infirmity insurance and like health insurance, via not-for-profit societies and index-linked.

How's that for starters?

 

[japancool]

Education. The state pays for the subjects society needs and the student pays for Media Studies, Philosophy, PPE and all the other pudding subjects. As for schools, that is just one huge can of worms that has to be looked at totally differently - schools everywhere (not just in the UK) are failing.

Yep. How about concentrating on hard sciences, maths, computer science, engineering etc? Singapore, Japan and South Korea didn't become economic powerhouses by teaching Film Studies.

Reform property laws as I outlined on page one.

Good idea, but not going to happen. It would remove the entire shaky foundation that this economic system is built on. It is, of course, likely to come crashing down anyway. As it stands, it's unsustainable and heading for a crash like we've never seen before.

Get rid of the NHS and replace the whole thing with European-style social insurance, with medical staff paid by the treatments and not by the hour. All doctors must qualify as surgeons to earn the title 'Dr'. Until then, they are just medical practitioners.

Can't say I agree with that, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[IanSuth]

External wall insulation (EWI) is fundamentally wrong. Insulation has to be primarily internal. For a passive house build, it has to be both and avoid all thermal bridging.

I live in a stone cottage with granite walls two feet thick. We took down all the plasterboard and lined the walls with Rockwool and then PU foam boards, mostly Kingspan. It is also important to insulate the floors and the internal walls. Ceilings should be insulated with thermal blankets and not double Rockwool. All heating and water pipes should be covered with thermal lagging.

Floors insulated (our dining area).

Walls double insulated.

Kitchen cooking area.

Again, double insulation.

And because of space constraints, double Cellotex.

So we went from this (and one sees the sum of all the sins hidden in old houses!) -

To this -

Almost there - about ten years ago.

The key is to do it room-by-room and get rid of everything. Whatever is there, from electrics to plumbing, from door lintels to chimneys, will be crap that just has to go! The results are cheaper and far better than putting totally ineffective toy cladding on the outside.

The total cost for the kitchen, without windows and fittings, was £3k. Today it would be about double that. Most other rooms were a few hundred per room - just plasterboard, battens, PU boards, electrics, rolls of Rockwool and plaster and paint and lots of Torx screws.

And before you ask - about three months for the kitchen-dining area and weekends only. And that was probably the hardest room to do. The living room was the most expensive because it included a stone fireplace from a quarry outside Harrogate, a fancy wooden floor and all sorts of fittings to convert it into a cinema with 7.1 sound from Genelec.

And that is the clue - when you decide to insulate a house, you get the chance to do all those other things that you wanted to do but would otherwise be too expensive/bothersome/time-consuming or whatever excuse you had for never getting round to do them.

When my mum moved in with my stepdad in the late 70's we had just had the oil shock.

The house was a 3 bedroom farmworkers semi , it had cavity walls only to 4 foot above ground level then single skin brick with pebble dash and old crittal windows. An open fire in the siting room and a furnacite burning 4 door aga with back boiler in the kitchen (which he had saved from a house throwing it out as it couldn't be converted to oil and it replaced a knackered rayburn).

Some of my first memories of that house involve an electricity board meter on a wooden board with trailing lead and double socket - it was moved around the house being used to measure what used what power (an analogue smart meter i guess)

For a while we had a tray of glycol or glycerine (cant remember which) instead of the ice cube tray under the freezer compartment as some kind of experiment to see if it reduced the effect on fridge temp (and therefore compressor usage) of the door being opened.

When an extension was built in the early80's (as by then we were 4 boys and a girl plus parents and 3 bedrooms was a tad cramped) it was built with copper pipe in the floor planned to be underfloor heating, polystyrene sheets and tinfoil in the walls and flat roof (hard to get cellotex at the time) and home made quadruple glazing as step father had researched triple glazing was a huge saving over double but it was cheaper to mount two sets of cheap sealed unit double glazing in a home made hardwood frame with silica gel between them than try and buy triple glazed units. Unfortunately it was so well insulated that the first xmas the aga was moved in (which was wheeled through the house between old and new kitchen on rollers Egyptian style exposing all to blue asbestos dust) even though the windows hadn't been fitted yet we had to have the back door wide open as it was too hot. The underfloor heating was never connected as pointless.

We also experimented with solar thermal heating of the water using old cast iron radiators painted black and mounted in a frame on a flat roof.

We had a small radiator in the chimney above the sitting room open fire which was on a closed loop with a rad in parents bedroom above to try and recover some of the heat usually lost up the there

Then there was a period everyone was having their electric hot air heating ripped out as natural gas came to the area and we were paid to remove several on a tractor and trailer - we put one in the house stacked to the brim with cast iron ballast and 9 instead of 5 elements (by combining bits from several units - with the spare blocks being used as weights on farm machinery). We retrofitted the house with ducting and the retired sinclair zx-81 was resurrected to control the elements and flaps which directed which rooms got heated when. The loft was packed about a foot deep with rockwool

So the house was still cold upstairs in winter unless you were right by the heater vent due to that single skin construction

As an aside we also tried wind power using 2 aerolons from a light plane at the scrap yard mounted on a wheel hub attached to an alternator and held up using a tractor loader - that was too efficient and the alternator burnt out meaning suddenly no braking load and the rotor spun up faster and faster until it became unbalanced and disintegrated spectacularly (with a piece burying itself 1' in the ground about 6" from my step uncles foot).
As the last house on the electric line we also had to have an generator in the shed and the house was fitted with 2 ring mains, one worked under mains or generator (with a relay switching it over) that used old 5A round pin plugs and low drain appliances were fitted with those so us children couldnt plug a high drain device on to the generator circuit - the other ring main only operated on mains and had the standard square 13A sockets.

Nothing being discussed now concept wise is anything i wasn't aware of 40 years ago - just the tech is more refined now and less heath robinson.

At the end of the day a lot of the UK's housing stock is just not suitable for easy quick cheap solutions to it's heating efficiency

 

[IanSuth]

Just did a search and I found the aga we had - it must have been an 84 (although i thought i remembered it being called a type F) - https://www.agafixspares.com/identify-my-aga-model.html - i remember the 9 hole grill in the firebox door - although ours had a big chrome lever where the hole is under the quadrant up and left of that (which is marked 0 to 4 and moves the flap in the flue to control temp)

as it says "This model was made before 1941 and we cannot supply ANY parts for it at all. Yes some are still working but really 80 years later I wouldn't suggest buying or working on one! "Only made to burn smokeless fuel" - I remember my dad looking at converting it to calor (we were off the gas grid) but the firebox wasnt the right shape or size to take a burner

 

[Mark T Jones]

Let me try again. The energy prices mean that people will die this winter from cold and malnutrition. How do you propose that should be prevented, or is that just deferred gratification or sacrifice?

Whilst I respect your socialist leanings, I can't help feeling that the breadth of this crisis is being over-stated, largely by people who would rather moan than make an effort.

Yes, there are people in genuine need, who need help. The best way for them to get help is for the people who aren't in genuine need, whose 'crisis' revolves around choosing between 20 fags a day or paying the fuel bill (or filling their Chelsea tractor with diesel to make pointless trips) to actually change their priorities, leaving funds for those in genuine need.

 

[Newchodge]

Whilst I respect your socialist leanings, I can't help feeling that the breadth of this crisis is being over-stated, largely by people who would rather moan than make an effort.

Yes, there are people in genuine need, who need help. The best way for them to get help is for the people who aren't in genuine need, whose 'crisis' revolves around choosing between 20 fags a day or paying the fuel bill (or filling their Chelsea tractor with diesel to make pointless trips) to actually change their priorities, leaving funds for those in genuine need.

Can you suggest how that would happen in practice, partcularly without government intervention - people may change their own priorities but that does not, of itself, help anyoine else.

There are a large number of people in this country on a fixed income with no obvious, or even possible, means to increae that income. Many of those have no spare cash, don't drink or smoke and don't own a vehicle. The figures suggest that their energy bills are likely to increase by £2,000 over the yaear. In addition the prices of basic foodstuffs have increased at a much higher rate than either RPI or CPI. Some of these people will receive about £1,200 of assistance, others will get £550. As Martin Lewis and others have said, this is a crisis.

 

[japancool]

Average UK house price: £281,000
Average UK wage: £25,971

Banks will generally consider a maximum loan-to-income ratio of 4.5, according to this article:

Mortgage affordability test scrapped by Bank of England

Some potential homebuyers may find it easier to get a loan as the central bank eases borrowing rules.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thereby meaning the average UK worker cannot buy the average UK house! Anyone else see something wrong with this?

 

[IanSuth]

Can you suggest how that would happen in practice, partcularly without government intervention - people may change their own priorities but that does not, of itself, help anyoine else.

There are a large number of people in this country on a fixed income with no obvious, or even possible, means to increae that income. Many of those have no spare cash, don't drink or smoke and don't own a vehicle. The figures suggest that their energy bills are likely to increase by £2,000 over the yaear. In addition the prices of basic foodstuffs have increased at a much higher rate than either RPI or CPI. Some of these people will receive about £1,200 of assistance, others will get £550. As Martin Lewis and others have said, this is a crisis.

Also remember a large number of those are on pre payment meters which both cost more and don't offer you the option to save up in preparation for a bill, if the temp suddenly drops and you need to put the heating on you HAVE to go down the corner shop and top it up there and then with hard cash.

You are literally stood in that shop with £x deciding how much to put on the prepayment card and how much to spend on food

 

[japancool]

Yes, there are people in genuine need, who need help. The best way for them to get help is for the people who aren't in genuine need, whose 'crisis' revolves around choosing between 20 fags a day or paying the fuel bill (or filling their Chelsea tractor with diesel to make pointless trips) to actually change their priorities, leaving funds for those in genuine need.

People could cut back on buying football shirts:

Football kit sales delayed as supply chain issues hit clubs

Fewer than half of English clubs have both their home and away kits on sale ahead of the new season.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[IanSuth]

Average UK house price: £281,000
Average UK wage: £25,971

Banks will generally consider a maximum loan-to-income ratio of 4.5, according to this article:

Mortgage affordability test scrapped by Bank of England

Some potential homebuyers may find it easier to get a loan as the central bank eases borrowing rules.

www.bbc.co.uk

Thereby meaning the average UK worker cannot buy the average UK house! Anyone else see something wrong with this?

Yeah you forgot to allow for both partners working

So make that

Average UK house price: £281,000
Average UK wage: £25,971 x 2 (£51,942)

4.5x = £233,739

20% deposit = £56,200

leaving

£224,800 to fund with mortgage

We nearly at the absolute peak i reckon (although in 1999 i reckoned the 2bed terrace house i lived in couldn't exceed £125k as that was 2.5x a joint £25k+£25k salary which was what MS & Oracle were paying grads with 2 years experience 1/4 mile away, they are now £225k so what do I know

 

[japancool]

Why not set bandings on the price cap, so people who use the least energy see the least increase? A pensioner living on their own is going to use less energy than a family living in the three bedroom house.

 

[japancool]

Yeah you forgot to allow for both partners working

Yes, but not every family has (nor should they have) both partners (if indeed, they do have partners) working.

We shouldn't be forcing both partners to work in order to afford a home - or to force people to have a partner. (I know the word "force" is an exaggeration)

 

[Newchodge]

Yes, but not every family has (nor should they have) both partners (if indeed, they do have partners) working.

We shouldn't be forcing both partners to work in order to afford a home - or to force people to have a partner. (I know the word "force" is an exaggeration)

4.5 times salary is one hell of a repayment commitment. When it was 2.5 times salary a second salary only counted as 1. Does that still apply?

 

[IanSuth]

4.5 times salary is one hell of a repayment commitment. When it was 2.5 times salary a second salary only counted as 1. Does that still apply?

My son was told him and his girlfriend could get 5x their joint if one or other set of parents were willing to act as additional guarantors - that really scared me. Especially as between them they owe £120k in student loans (remember your tuition fee loans attracts interest from the September of your 1st year which is 3x£9250 each on it's own)

Considering they are struggling to find a 2 bed flat for under £900 nr Coventry (they both have to work from home so need a second room) purchasing was looking attractive

 

[japancool]

The table on this page makes interesting reading. Apparently, our tuition costs are some of the most expensive in Europe, and our students have more debt than anyone else (including the USA):

https://studentloanhero.com/featured/student-loans-different-countries-international/

There's another crisis waiting to happen.

 

[The Byre]

Good idea, but not going to happen. It would remove the entire shaky foundation that this economic system is built on. It is, of course, likely to come crashing down anyway. As it stands, it's unsustainable and heading for a crash like we've never seen before.

The house you live in is NOT an asset - it's a liability. And the more it is worth, the greater that liability becomes. Even if you paid cash for it, it still COSTS you money every month in taxes and repairs.

The housing market has become financialised. Housing is just another financial product being sold by the banking industry to make them richer and you poorer.

Your mortgage is an asset held by the bank. On their balance sheet, all those mortgages are listed as assets and get either sold in £1bn bundles of mortgage-backed securities or collateralized debt obligations (MBSs and CDOs) or are used as security for further lending. And those bundles of collateral get bounced around the banking system until the total debt is many, many multiples of the underlying value - 10-times, 20-times, nobody really knows (or wants to find out!) It is a dangerous practice known as rehypothecation.

The expression "A house of cards!" springs to mind!

And the iniquity of stamp duty and inheritance tax is eye-watering. Neither affects the poor for obvious reasons, but neither affects the rich either, so it is a tax only on the middle class. The rich in the UK just do not pay taxes. They sail straight past all tax laws with the motto "Nothing to do with me!"

Can't say I agree with that, but that's a discussion for another time.

The health of an entire nation is being placed in jeopardy by the selfish behaviour of various siloed bodies within the NHS and the food industry. Sick people cannot work and therefore do not pay taxes. Sick people are a liability for society, but unlike a mortgage, there is no counterparty asset. The appalling health of the nation is a contributing factor to falling productivity and falling living standards.

between them they owe £120k in student loans

Holy Moley! Why do people get sucked into this crazy system? There are online degree courses from reputable universities like the LSE and MIT that cost a few thousand - cheap enough to pay out of the old trouser pocket!

So now education has become financialised - a degree is yet another liability! Another asset for the banksters!

And given the fact that everybody and their mothers-in-law seem to have degrees, a liability with little or no real benefit.

There's another crisis waiting to happen.

That house of cards is looking mighty wobbly!

 

[japancool]

The health of an entire nation is being placed in jeopardy by the selfish behaviour of various siloed bodies within the NHS and the food industry. Sick people cannot work and therefore do not pay taxes. Sick people are a liability for society, but unlike a mortgage, there is no counterparty asset. The appalling health of the nation is a contributing factor to falling productivity and falling living standards.

Hey, I'm sick and I work.

 

[IanSuth]

Holy Moley! Why do people get sucked into this crazy system? There are online degree courses from reputable universities like the LSE and MIT that cost a few thousand - cheap enough to pay out of the old trouser pocket!

So now education has become financialised - a degree is yet another liability! Another asset for the banksters!

And given the fact that everybody and their mothers-in-law seem to have degrees, a liability with little or no real benefit.


That house of cards is looking mighty wobbly!

Son did a degree in maths is now working on a Melinda Gates funded project to create a cost benefit model for us in deciding where to spend £ in subharan Africa for the treatment of sleeping sickness/eradication of tetse fly. Couldnt have got that job if not actually at the uni (it is a 3 year project starting on £30k and he will get a phd by publication at the end)

Daughter is at Uni doing a physiotherapy degree, can't do that remotely either and she does get the £5k bursary for nursing and allied professions (but because of placements won't be able to do much part time work in the year coming and she is in London - although hall accommodation is a bit cheaper than private due to bills being included at £173 per week )

Do the maths
Tuition 3 x £9250 = £27,750
Maintenance loan is per year £3597 (living at home outside London parents earn over £58k combined)- 12,667 (away form home in London no parental contribution) - that is £10,791 - £38,001

Total £38,541 - £65,751 BEFORE ANY INTEREST IS CHARGED

Below is info from .gov, note they are quoting an RPI of 1.5% not reality

Interest on Plan 2​

While you’re studying, interest is 4.5%.

This is made up of the Retail Price Index (RPI) plus up to 3%.
This rate applies until the 5 April after you finish or leave your course, or for the first 4 years of your course if you’re studying part-time, unless the RPI changes.
Then

Your annual income	Interest rate
£27,295 or less	RPI (currently 1.5%)
£27,296 to £49,130	RPI (currently 1.5%), plus up to 3%
Over £49,130	Usually RPI (currently 1.5%), plus 3%

YOU ONLY PAY AT 9% OF YOUR SALARY ABOVE THRESHOLD (ABOUT £20K) SO MOST WILL NEVER REPAY AND THIS IS A MASSIVE HIT THE TREASURY WILL HAVE TO WRITE OFF 1 DAY

 

[japancool]

YOU ONLY PAY AT 9% OF YOUR SALARY ABOVE THRESHOLD (ABOUT £20K) SO MOST WILL NEVER REPAY AND THIS IS A MASSIVE HIT THE TREASURY WILL HAVE TO WRITE OFF 1 DAY

Loans are written off after 30 years. The first loans won't be written off for some years yet, so the current bunch probably think "Not my problem, let a future government deal with it".

 

[IanSuth]

Holy Moley! Why do people get sucked into this crazy system? There are online degree courses from reputable universities like the LSE and MIT that cost a few thousand - cheap enough to pay out of the old trouser pocket!

And Online taught LSE degree is £17,500 for UK residents so hardly "a few thousand" but admittedly £10k down on the f2f version

Global and Online Degrees

Learn online or with support from a recognised teaching centre near you.

www.lse.ac.uk

 

[IanSuth]

Loans are written off after 30 years. The first loans won't be written off for some years yet, so the current bunch probably think "Not my problem, let a future government deal with it".

Actually changed to 30 as was 25 years for fist few years of loans, but there has been a big argument internally in govt as to whether those loans can be listed as an asset or not because of the number that will be written off (got missed by the public due to covid)

Student loans in the public sector finances: a methodological guide - Office for National Statistics

Explains the methods we will use to partition student loans into government expenditure and a financial transaction.

www.ons.gov.uk

When we announced our initial decision, we estimated (based on Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) calculations) that introducing the new treatment would increase public sector net borrowing (PSNB) by approximately £12 billion in the financial year ending (FYE) 2019. Since December 2018, we have worked with the Department for Education to develop and refine the modelling that underlies these estimates. As a result, in their March 2019 Economic and Fiscal Outlook, the OBR were able to update their estimate and report a PSNB impact of £10.5 billion in FYE 2019.

CHECK THIS BIT

The most significant of these changes, in terms of their impact on statistics, took place in 2012 when tuition fees in England rose from £3,290 to £9,000 per academic year and borrowing limits were raised accordingly. At the same time, average interest rates paid by students on the loans were increased. These changes have led to a rapid rise in the stock of student loans in recent years, and the stock currently has a nominal value1 of around £120 billion, or 6% of gross domestic product (GDP). This stock is projected, by the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR), to rise further to nearly 20% of GDP by 2040.

 

[japancool]

And Online taught LSE degree is £17,500 for UK residents so hardly "a few thousand" but admittedly £10k down on the f2f version

OU is about the same, last time I checked, maybe a bit more.

Not much scope to do a second degree for many people either.

 

[The Byre]

Maths Ph.D. or DM, plus a physiotherapy qualification - leave the country! "You load me with a giant debt, you stupid!"

 

[IanSuth]

Maths Ph.D. or DM, plus a physiotherapy qualification - leave the country! "You load me with a giant debt, you stupid!"

He will have a Maths PhD specialising in health economics she will be immediately qualified to nhs Band 5 standard (Band 5. <2 years' experience £25,655 2-4 years £27,780 4+ years £31,534. Examples of roles at band 5 (includes many newly qualified clinical professionals) + london or outer london weighting etc)

Youngest daughter just starting (in a month) Maths, F.Maths, Physics and Computer Science ALevels at local comp

 

[The Byre]

The UK is fast becoming a very unwelcoming place for young people, especially if they are young and talented - there are plenty of countries that are crying out for people like your offspring and my advice is always to vote with your feet.

 

[simon field]

There are a large number of people in this country on a fixed income with no obvious, or even possible, means to increae that income. Many of those have no spare cash, don't drink or smoke and don't own a vehicle.

Have you a source for this information please?

 

[DontAsk]

Proper apprenticeships and the requirement to have a master's certificate for certain trades such as electrician, plumber, builder and mechanic.

No thanks, totally unnecessary and a bar to otherwise capable people getting work.

with medical staff paid by the treatments and not by the hour.

That's how Dentist's used to be paid for performing unnecessary work.

 

[IanSuth]

Have you a source for this information please?

I found this whilst looking

Household income

In the 3 years to March 2021, black households were most likely out of all ethnic groups to have a weekly income of under £600.

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk

As off 31/3/21 26% of households had a pretax income of under £400 per week, 45% under £600 (£31.2k pa) and with a married state pension of £359.20 when you are looking at household energy bills of £3363 or £65 a week you can see how big a deal ANY rise in energy costs is, you will see pensioners (who tend to need to spend more on heating) paying out close on 20% of their pension in energy costs, when you factor in rising housing costs (council tax rise is on average 3.5% and is now an average of just over £38 a week) you can see there is a HUGE % of the UK without a lot of wiggle room to "just save a bit of frivolities"

 

[Newchodge]

Loans are written off after 30 years. The first loans won't be written off for some years yet, so the current bunch probably think "Not my problem, let a future government deal with it".

I thought they changed that this year to 40 years?

 

[Newchodge]

Have you a source for this information please?

No. Do you really think that is not true?