Some people really make me sick

[Scott-Copywriter]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8472265.stm

In my opinion people who commit these crimes should be locked up for life straight away. They quite clearly have psychological issues and won't get any better. They're just going to be released to eventually commit another crime and scare innocent people.

Some people, children or adults, should not be allowed to be free for the sake of the general public.

 

They'll spend a few years in a YO institute and then be sent to Australia to lead a new life with a new identity just like the Jamie Bulger killers!

 

[Rhyl Lightworks]

This is an horrific story, but I believe children only behave like this because of the way they are brought up. The parents are more guilty than the boys and they presumably will get away with it scott free.

Barrie

 

This is an horrific story, but I believe children only behave like this because of the way they are brought up. The parents are more guilty than the boys and they presumably will get away with it scott free.

Barrie

Although to some extent i do believe what you are saying BUT at their age they should no the difference between right and wrong. They were in foster care i think so once again it'll be social services fault!

 

This is an horrific story, but I believe children only behave like this because of the way they are brought up. The parents are more guilty than the boys
Barrie

and there parents and there parents parents ad infinitum.:|

Earl

 

[Rhyl Lightworks]

I agree with what you are saying Sirearl, and it is the hardest job in the world to break this vicious circle. Society tries to cope by using Social Sevices, but they merely try to contain situations (sometimes, as in this case, unsuccessfully). These boys were not in foster care from the moment they were born - lack of parenting caused them to be put in care.

Barrie

 

These boys were not in foster care from the moment they were born - lack of parenting caused them to be put in care

I am not disagreeing with you but i do think they should be made to take responsibility for their actions no matter how young they are!

Think of it this way........if they get released and get new identities those boys could be your daughters boyfriends, not a nice thought and you'd no nothing about it! I don't think any psychologist can deal with people who are that mentally disturbed.

 

[An Oasis]

and there parents and there parents parents ad infinitum.

That's why we invented Australia. Plan A worked well.

 

[maxine]

I think it is about time that we said enough is enough. I couldn't care less about these childrens backgrounds but we need to protect other children, full stop. If that means chucking them all in an institution out of harms way from the age of 5 then so be it.

You can't tell me that these children didnt know right from wrong. There was probably a whole load of other incidents before this fatality but somehow nobody has taken them to task before hand, just pussy footed around with paperwork more likely and being on a list for this and a list for that.

Why in the hell they were allowed to roam free with these kind of issues and risks to other children is appalling.

I feel so sorry for the parents of the victims. Nobody should have to go through this.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

It is probably the parents fault due to their upbringing.

However, in my opinion they're now a lost cause. Whether it's the parents fault or not, they should be locked up to keep horrible people like that out of the free public. They will likely bring nothing but harm and discomfort to ordinary, innocent people.

Edit: Here we are.

The parents (or the father) should be locked up too, as well as the two boys. Granted it's the parents fault, but the two now have it ingrained in them and still committed that horrific act despite clearly knowing right from wrong. That's still a crime which is just as bad.

 

[Stephen Berry]

their 'toxic' home life was a recipe for disaster
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/8473112.stm
and both parents should have a degree of legal responsibility here - if we can be locked up for our children not going to school (ultimately) then why not for other crimes of greater consequence?

Of course the children should also feel the full weight of the law AND/BUT no crime such as this happens without warning signs and gradual progression. I recall a forum member whose little boy had his trousers pulled down by older children and he was then placed in stinging nettles ...... it's an early sign. Of course no-one is saying that the attackers of the forum member's son will necessarily commit similar crimes - but the early signs are there.

Animal cruelty in children is apparently a 'tale-tale' early sign along the ladder to human cruelty.

Seeking prevention would therefore include a greater clampdown on minor crimes (e.g. animals and nettles) for which the police would then be accused of over-reaction and undoubtedly sued for some little snot's loss of human rights. So, depressingly, I don't see how the police or social services stand much of a chance of prevention.

 

[Jenni384]

However, in my opinion they're now a lost cause. Whether it's the parents fault or not, they should be locked up to keep horrible people like that out of the free public. They will likely bring nothing but harm and discomfort to ordinary, innocent people.

Likely with love and attention, some kids (some, not all) could change. Yet they get locked away and branded a lost cause. I'm certainly not saying they don't deserve punishment - but we all know that current 'punishments' have **** all to do with rehabilitation. Ultimately it's a failing of the system from start to finish. I realise there isn't enough time or money or resources to give troubled people love and attention when they need it (ie before they go bad) but lets be honest - in most cases that is what would prevent a lot of this.

 

[jw8725]

The parents should be held accountable for the actions of these evil and nasty kids. They should be locked up for a long time in a landmark case that should serve as a warning to other chav parents in this dysfunctional country of ours.

 

[maxine]

Stephen, I think you are completely right about warning signs and I remember reading that forum members experience and feeling very sorry for them. I wish that more resources and energy were spent nipping problems in the bud and isolating problems.

As much as I agree with Jenny about giving kids love and attention there is still the basic need to protect others from this sort of disgusting act.

A few years ago my son was assaulted by another child at school in front of us and school teachers. It was completely unprovoked. The excuse the head gave me "in confidence" was that the other child had had a bad time in foster care. Whilst I felt sorry for the other child (as anyone probably would) it didn't take away the basic level of care and protection that should be given to every child. I am completely sick of the system encouraging parents and others to make allowances for wicked children. There are unfortunately lots of bad parents and bad carers out there but we must have things in place to compensate for that.

If someone said that my council tax needed to double to be able to afford to give the proper level of protection then I would write a cheque out tomorrow. Would rather pay for that than other ridiculous initiatives anyday!

 

[iArtist]

The problem here is 'what is normal?'

Those boys idea of 'normal'

involved sex and violence

They won't learn what our understanding of 'normal' is until they are perhaps in their thirties or now they've been removed from their homes hopefully sooner.

We are not born with an innate knowledge of cultural norms, we are taught them.

I know of a girl in foster care who was so badly abused all her young child life she apparently (according to pshychiatrists) will never ever be able to have normal relationships as she will never be able to understand them the way we do. How terribly sad?

I don't know what to think when I read stories like these as I know some kids are just born bad. but I also know nurture has a part to play when kids are so young.

Either way, our children do need protecting from them.

As for their acts, when I was a child I knew someone who used to put out cigarettes on the eylids of girls she didn't like. A boy in my school murdered an 8yr old (he got 2yrs) and basically violence among kids was high.

I myself was kicked repeatedly by someone wearing icehocky blades and was once attacked and kicked in the head, face and body repeatedly by four people.

There were girl gangs whose signature was to put your head through a phone box window, There were school v school gangs, footie gangs (zulu warriors) etc.

This is sadly nothing new.

I grew up in Brum incase anyone is wondering where this hell hole was!

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Seeking prevention would therefore include a greater clampdown on minor crimes (e.g. animals and nettles) for which the police would then be accused of over-reaction and undoubtedly sued for some little snot's loss of human rights. So, depressingly, I don't see how the police or social services stand much of a chance of prevention.

I agree. I'm not sure how social services could prevent this from happening? The kids are the last people to take any notice of authority, and they aren't going to be observed 24/7. It takes more than regular visitors from some chappy to undo years of psychological influence.

Likely with love and attention, some kids (some, not all) could change. Yet they get locked away and branded a lost cause. I'm certainly not saying they don't deserve punishment - but we all know that current 'punishments' have **** all to do with rehabilitation. Ultimately it's a failing of the system from start to finish. I realise there isn't enough time or money or resources to give troubled people love and attention when they need it (ie before they go bad) but lets be honest - in most cases that is what would prevent a lot of this.

A normal life obviously (in most circumstances) creates normal children and normal adults. However, the children haven't had that and have now become truly evil people. They know right and wrong, it's not like they're wondering why they're being punished.

It's extremely difficult (or even impossible) to remove this whole personality which they have picked up from birth. If they commit this act for sport, then they are evil people. They aren't just animals which have been mis-trained and don't know any better.

People who deserve psychological help are the ones who have had a terrible upbringing but still refrain from clearly terrible acts, even if they have an urge to carry them out. Why should someone receive rehabilitation who would comfortably go ahead and hurt others for fun without remorse?

Lock up the parents and the kids. Remove such people from society completely so the free, kind-natured, innocent people of this country can live in peace. Harsh perhaps, but that's just my view.

 

Unfortunately there are some people who have a nasty streak in them, who will do unspeakable things. In this case, it manifested very early in life, but this may be something that will happen more and more, because kids are subjected to a barrage of violent behaviour through the media (who glamorise and portray it from the wrong angles from time to time), through video games that glamorise violence, to the internet where they freely say whatever they want and are subject to nowhere near the same rules as in 'real' life.

The kids nowadays see violence as something that is commonplace, they seem to actually like it. It is encouraged in some ways, and they are starved of any discipline that could control them in the way a certain percentage need. They are also living in an age where they are scarcely tolerated, hounded away from built-up areas, and left to their own devices. They are frowned upon by the majority of adults and told they are useless, stupid and starved of encouragement for initiative.

Unfortunately, the kind of person who is capable of the cold-blooded and meaningless extreme violence, is not the rehabilitating kind in my experience, and they tend to need to be kept off the streets as long as possible. In this case, these two perpetrators are more than likely a lost cause, will be nothing but a wasted life, and will grow up and be educated in the prison system. The only way to make them of any use is to punish them like we never have before, to show them as an example to other kids, and scare some out of acting on their under-developed thoughts.

Its a fact of life now, and until we as a country start to punish people rather than try to understand them all the time..... we're gonna have to get used to reading about it.

 

[Wild Goose]

In the USA they'd be locked up until old age (ie punishement, and a warning to others).

Here they'll be locked up for a tomato season until some do-goodin' shrink pronounces them cured (ie "rehabilitation").

That's good old British justice for you.

 

The kids who committed this got a measerly 5 years (well its a 5 year minimum, but they could in theory be out after that).

Unbelieveable, and I wonder what one would need to do to get a stiff sentence these days?

I feel for the victims family, because they will not be feeling that they got any justice, and yet again the UK lets a victim down in favour of saving dosh housing a criminal.

 

[Gord]

In my experience over the years , 90% of social problems ( adults and/or youths) in the community have been sorted by the community.
This still happens to a lesser extent today despite the risk of being criminalized for taking some action.
The demise of the local pub ( pubco victims ) where community individuals gained collective strength will further diminish this order.

Anyone who thinks that community order should or could be 100% maintained and managed by police and social services is living in a fairy land where everything is done for them.Such a 'Utopian' dream can never exist in the real world.

That is why individuals should be empowered and be able to react , and to a lesser extent act in the knowledge that the law is absolutely behind them. The test should not be reasonable force , it should be extreme force , the definition for which would not include chasing & whacking any burgler over the head with any blunt instruments available, as hard as you like.

 

[Esk247]

the problem is we're producing feral children. i've witnessed them. they act in a pack formation, they surround there victims, they take part in ritual like initiations, they have a leader, they find it difficult to talk to those outside of there own pack, they see other packs as a threat (e.g. adults, old people or indeed young children).

it's amazing to watch but also incredibly scary and shocking. i get to see alot from where i work, there are building sites nearby, when the site closes the children come out of the woodwork...these are no ordinary children though..they immediately set about in pack formation, leader at the front, they make there way to the building site of choice and then proceed to pick up bricks, pipes, rope..they smash there way through the fencing and in to a pleasure park of open man holes, cables, partially constructed walls and cielings..they then begin to smash away at brickwork, try to slice open the tyres on the works vehicles with a stanley knife..the others set to work on pulling guttering down..they're oblivious to those watching, even the police sometimes spend some time just filming them...to no avail ofcourse. the police can do nothing..they're feral and under 10 years old.

remarkable...but horrid.

 

[krisov]

I agree with you, Its not only parents default depending on environment also