Snow days off

[Indigo Cherry]

Some interesting Q&A's on staffing and the snow. From another site.

Thought it might be of interest to 1 or 2 of you?

Q: The snow has made my journey into work a real trial and I've told my boss I cannot make it in. Will I get in trouble?


If travel disruption is preventing you from getting into work you should talk to your employer to see how the land lies. Your employer can force you to take unpaid leave, take off holiday days or work flexible hours. Provided you've shown that you've made the effort to get into work, your boss should be sympathetic towards your situation.
It's also worth checking your employment contract or staff handbook to see if there is anything on your rights around this issue or if you feel that your employer is acting unfairly.

Q: My employer is forcing me to take holiday off because I cannot get into work, is this allowed?


Employers have to give staff a minimum notice period before they can force you to take holiday leave. For example, if you need to take a day's leave because of the weather conditions, they must give you two days' notice of this.

Q: I'm being forced to take unpaid leave because of the snow, is this fair?


If you cannot travel into work, your employer could suggest that you take a day of unpaid leave. If this isn't included in your employment contract, however, you cannot be forced to take unpaid leave. It's best to negotiate with your boss the best options - although annoying to lose a day's pay you may prefer this to taking compulsory holiday.


Q: My boss wants me to work from home, which would be fine but I don't have an Internet connection so am limited with what I can do. How can I rectify this?


Working from home is an increasingly popular option and in most cases technology means this is possible. If you don't have all the facilities you need at home speak to your employer and establish what you can do at home and then offer to make up the rest of the hours at another date.
However, if you don't currently work flexible hours under your contract, your boss cannot force you to do so. On the other hand you have to weigh up if you'd prefer to do this rather than have to take off extra holiday or unpaid leave.

Q: The school my children go to has closed because of cold weather and I have no childcare arrangements. Can my employer force me to take the time off as holiday?


You have no reason to feel guilty or panic, under the employment rights act 1996, an employee is entitled to take a reasonable amount of time off work because of an unexpected disruption to childcare arrangements.

Q: My workplace has closed because of the bad weather, what does that mean for me?


Good news, if you cannot get into the office and have no work to do at home then your employer cannot dock your pay or force you to take annual leave. Time for a snowball fight…

Q: Despite struggling into work in snowy conditions and with disruptions to my journey, half of my colleagues haven't made the same effort. Can I get anything in recognition oQ: Despite struggling into work in snowy conditions and with disruptions to my journey, half of my colleagues haven't bothered, can I get something for my efforts?

Unfortunately, you are not entitled to any kind of reward - be it monetary or extra holiday days; however, it's unlikely to go unnoticed by your boss.


And finally something for employers to think about…
Local authorities may well be warning people to avoid leaving their homes or make journeys unless absolutely necessary. You have a duty of care to your employees and could be liable if you have pressurised workers to come in when conditions are dangerous or their health is at risk.


Matt

 

[amazingdomains]

Kind of confusing:

Q: The snow has made my journey into work a real trial and I've told my boss I cannot make it in. Will I get in trouble?


If travel disruption is preventing you from getting into work you should talk to your employer to see how the land lies. Your employer can force you to take unpaid leave, take off holiday days or work flexible hours. [snip]

Q: My employer is forcing me to take holiday off because I cannot get into work, is this allowed?

Employers have to give staff a minimum notice period before they can force you to take holiday leave. [snip]

Q: I'm being forced to take unpaid leave because of the snow, is this fair?

[snip] If this isn't included in your employment contract, however, you cannot be forced to take unpaid leave.

So, I'm still kind of confused - can an employer force one to take unpaid leave or holiday leave? The answer in the first question seems to be yes, but then in the second and third, the answer seems to be no.

 

[Indigo Cherry]

Kind of confusing:



So, I'm still kind of confused - can an employer force one to take unpaid leave or holiday leave? The answer in the first question seems to be yes, but then in the second and third, the answer seems to be no.

As far as I know an employer can force an employee to take PAID leave but has to give 2 days notice, but can't force him/her to take UNPAID leave.

Matt

 

[amazingdomains]

Thanks Matt!

 

[Indigo Cherry]

Thanks Matt!

No probs mate!

 

[saxondale]

As far as I know an employer can force an employee to take PAID leave but has to give 2 days notice, but can't force him/her to take UNPAID leave.

Matt

thats not what the 1st example question says..................

 

[Indigo Cherry]

thats not what the 1st example question says..................

Nope, but I think it's just not very clear.

It says your employer can force you but there is no mention of the 2 day rule. All it says is you can be forced to take leave and it's not til the next question that it says only if you are told 2 days in advance.

But as far as I know the law says that your employer CAN force you to take paid leave but only if you are given 2 days notice but they can't make you take UNpaid leave at all.

But maybe one of the HR firms that frequent this site can clarify this?

Thanks

Matt

 

[saxondale]

Nope, but I think it's just not very clear.

Matt

you can say that again, i think the missing variable is who decides no work


if its you - employer doesn`t have to pay

if its employer - he has to give notice

 

[Indigo Cherry]

you can say that again, i think the missing variable is who decides no work


if its you - employer doesn`t have to pay

if its employer - he has to give notice

Yeah but if it's you that chooses, then it's not the employer forcing you.

 

[saxondale]

Yeah but if it's you that chooses, then it's not the employer forcing you.

could be



me - "I cant get in today" ..............boss - "then you must use holiday"

is wrong as opposed to


me - "I cant get in today" ...............boss - "well you can either not get paid or do you want to use a holiday day, your choice"

 

[Indigo Cherry]

could be



me - "I cant get in today" ..............boss - "then you must use holiday"

is wrong as opposed to


me - "I cant get in today" ...............boss - "well you can either not get paid or do you want to use a holiday day, your choice"

But example 1: That can't happen, that's your boss telling you to take paid leave without 2 days noptice. That's illegal.

Example 2: That's your boss giving YOU the choice, which he doesn't have to do. But he is not forcing you to do anything. He isn't forcing you to take a day off, you have decided you can't get in.

Matt

 

[ccp consultancy]

With the confusion over the interpretation of this - and with the likelihood that even worse weather will be coming in January and February, it might be worth all business reviewing / creating a bad weather policy and updating their employee handbooks.

Also thinking about the chaos that has been created by the recent tube strikes in London and various other extraneous circumstances that employees often face when trying to get to work.

If you have a clearly worded policy then this might prevent confusion when the time arises.

It is also very important that whatever stance you take with employees that it is a consistent approach throughout the workforce, or you could face grievances for unfair treatment

It may also be worth giving consideration to contingency plans - if your work is such that home working could be an option - maybe have processes set up so that this can occur.

 

[saxondale]

But example 1: That can't happen, that's your boss telling you to take paid leave without 2 days noptice. That's illegal.

Example 2: That's your boss giving YOU the choice, which he doesn't have to do. But he is not forcing you to do anything. He isn't forcing you to take a day off, you have decided you can't get in.

Matt

yes, thats what your cut and paste said - the boss can say you will not get paid, he cannot say you will have to take holiday

holiday is ring fenced - see?

 

[Indigo Cherry]

yes, thats what your cut and paste said - the boss can say you will not get paid, he cannot say you will have to take holiday

holiday is ring fenced - see?

Yeah but I think it was just the original article being a bit vague on the first answer It seems to clear it up on rest though

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Some interesting Q&A's on staffing and the snow. From another site.

Thought it might be of interest to 1 or 2 of you?

Q: The snow has made my journey into work a real trial and I've told my boss I cannot make it in. Will I get in trouble?


If travel disruption is preventing you from getting into work you should talk to your employer to see how the land lies. Your employer can force you to take unpaid leave, take off holiday days or work flexible hours. Provided you've shown that you've made the effort to get into work, your boss should be sympathetic towards your situation.

It's also worth checking your employment contract or staff handbook to see if there is anything on your rights around this issue or if you feel that your employer is acting unfairly.

The employer can indeed force unpaid leave, but needs to be very cautious about this – is there provision in the contract to require/force this?

If employees can show they have made a meaningful effort to get into work – not simply standing at a bus stop until they get cold, but genuinely explored alternative routes and done some walking if necessary – the boss should be sympathetic, but that doesn't require them to pay the wage for the day; it could simply mean not taking disciplinary action for an unauthorised absence.

Q: My employer is forcing me to take holiday off because I cannot get into work, is this allowed?


Employers have to give staff a minimum notice period before they can force you to take holiday leave. For example, if you need to take a day's leave because of the weather conditions, they must give you two days' notice of this.


Q: I'm being forced to take unpaid leave because of the snow, is this fair?
If you cannot travel into work, your employer could suggest that you take a day of unpaid leave. If this isn't included in your employment contract, however, you cannot be forced to take unpaid leave. It's best to negotiate with your boss the best options — although annoying to lose a day's pay you may prefer this to taking compulsory holiday.

Absolutely no need to take leave, paid or unpaid, and unless the above is satisfied, no right for an employer to force leave on anyone.

Q: My boss wants me to work from home, which would be fine but I don't have an Internet connection so am limited with what I can do. How can I rectify this?


Working from home is an increasingly popular option and in most cases technology means this is possible. If you don't have all the facilities you need at home speak to your employer and establish what you can do at home and then offer to make up the rest of the hours at another date.
However, if you don't currently work flexible hours under your contract, your boss cannot force you to do so. On the other hand you have to weigh up if you'd prefer to do this rather than have to take off extra holiday or unpaid leave.

But given the above, there appears to be no option other than paid leave, unpaid leave, or working from home...

Q: The school my children go to has closed because of cold weather and I have no childcare arrangements. Can my employer force me to take the time off as holiday?


You have no reason to feel guilty or panic, under the employment rights act 1996, an employee is entitled to take a reasonable amount of time off work because of an unexpected disruption to childcare arrangements.

Let’s qualify that statement: under the Employment Rights Act, Section 57A (which was inserted by the Employment Relations Act 1999), an employee is entitled to (unpaid) time-off:

• to provide assistance on an occasion when a dependant falls ill, gives birth or is injured or assaulted,
• to make arrangements for the provision of care for a dependant who is ill or injured,
• in consequence of the death of a dependant,
  
• because of the unexpected disruption or termination of arrangements for the care of a dependant, or
• to deal with an incident which involves a child of the employee and which occurs unexpectedly in a period during which an educational establishment which the child attends is responsible for him or her.

The employee has the right to time-off, but this is available only to take action which is necessary for any of the above; no employee can take time-off simply because it snows.

And finally something for employers to think about…
Local authorities may well be warning people to avoid leaving their homes or make journeys unless absolutely necessary. You have a duty of care to your employees and could be liable if you have pressurised workers to come in when conditions are dangerous or their health is at risk.

Working is surely an absolute necessary – how else are people meant to live? Visiting a friend for coffee could be deemed unnecessary, but working surely is! Also, many warnings are based on driving on the roads, and where public transport is still running, driving is not absolutely necessary as alternative means are available.


Deductions from Wages

One thing the article doesn’t mention is how employers should deal with unpaid leave, or unauthorised absences. In either case, the pay should be based on the reduced amount due for the hours worked, not on the normal weekly/monthly pay, with a deduction for the absent days – a deduction is unlawful unless provided for in the contract, so the gross pay should reflect what is due, not the norm, with a deduction.



Karl Limpert

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

The employee doesn't turn up for work, they don't get paid. No leave is taken, paid or unpaid, they simply didn't turn up and therefore don't get paid.



Nothing difficult or unlawful about that.


(If there was no good reason not to attend work, disciplinary action is appropriate too, but this is where the employer needs to consider the facts of each case.)




Karl Limpert

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Where did the OP find all this stuff.!!!.It looks like a blueprint for the lazy .

Its tough enough as it is, without websites that teach the idle how to get one over his or her employer.Its a double blow using the winter to teach him or her how to take advantage of the employer that has his life savings and house on the line providing him or her with one of those difficult to find jobs .

Our country is not the most productive anymore we have high unemployment, businesses closing and laws that support the no hoper.Its not good at all really !!!!

I drove all over the country this week with no real problems so what is it with these people other countries always cope well in the snow !!!!

Here is what you should say to the employee that wants a day off

"Shut up your moaning Get in here now or I will kick your arse!!! If I dont see you here today your out the door and I will find somebody more usefull!!!"

Always be fair you could tell them not to turn up at all but give them a chance to turn up

 

[saxondale]

I drove all over the country this week with no real problems so what is it with these people

sorry but after 5 days of been snowed in, and I mean snowed in the fact someone "down south" can drive is neither here nor there.

 

[Drpepper]

As has been said, it really simple - you turn up for work and get paid, you don't turn up you don't get paid.

I had an employee phone up saying they "thought they might not be able to get in today", they hadn't even stepped out of the front door yet! On being told "that's no problem, take the day off and you can make up the hours later in the month if you don't want to loose a days pay" they managed to get in no trouble! Turned out it would have better if she had stayed at home and done extra hours later in the month though - bleedin' quiet day and didn't really need her!!

 

[Esk247]

If the train network actually frickin ran I would be more likely to agree with you (if people were able to get to work through alternative means to using the car or bus).

Truth is, we haven't seen a train for 3 days, they've closed everything up. The buses are also only delivering in town, for taxis its the same, they're not risking it.

Car? HA! go on then, go out in the 2 foot snow in your Ford Escort and IF you manage to get to the end of the road without getting wedged in the fluffy stuff I'll give you a Mars bar.

My missus had to walk to and from work the other day, in the snow, 5 miles of walking in the dark with torches at -10 degrees. I'd say that was pretty dedicated if you ask me.

Not everyone is lazy.

Where did the OP find all this stuff.!!!.It looks like a blueprint for the lazy .

Its tough enough as it is, without websites that teach the idle how to get one over his or her employer.Its a double blow using the winter to teach him or her how to take advantage of the employer that has his life savings and house on the line providing him or her with one of those difficult to find jobs .

Our country is not the most productive anymore we have high unemployment, businesses closing and laws that support the no hoper.Its not good at all really !!!!

I drove all over the country this week with no real problems so what is it with these people other countries always cope well in the snow !!!!

Here is what you should say to the employee that wants a day off

"Shut up your moaning Get in here now or I will kick your arse!!! If I dont see you here today your out the door and I will find somebody more usefull!!!"

Always be fair you could tell them not to turn up at all but give them a chance to turn up

 

[Indigo Cherry]

I drove all over the country this week with no real problems so what is it with these people other countries always cope well in the snow !!!!

Well whoopadeedoo for you! I have been unable to even get my car out iof my driveway as the road we live in is an ice rink! I'm an employer but luckily enough my staff mostly work from home. I wouldn't even attempt to drive to work in those conditions and I wouldn't expect anyone, including employees to risk theor lives getting to me.

And I live in the South where it's not even as bad as other areas!

 

[silverrepublic]

We always offer a choice - 'do you want5 to take a days holiday? (if they have leave left to take) or a days unpaid leave - simple, straight forward.

I am now on day seven in the house - this snow is killing me - i need to move down south!

 

[ccp consultancy]

Quote from Personnel Management - for those members amongst us that want to wish to pick fights with everyone - this is not my opinion - just posting for information only

" Mike Emmott, employee relations adviser at the CIPD urged employers to rethink laying down the law for absent staff, since it risks damaging trust. He said employers were entitled not to pay employees who fail to show up for work, but strongly advised against it.

"It's important to show empathy with employees - particularly those who normally perform well - as research shows that this flexibility and trust will pay off in the long term, with employees more motivated and going the extra mile when they are able to get to work," he said.
"Our experience is that employers tend to deal with these issues pragmatically; few go to 'law' about whether or not employees make it in to work. Both sides need to be realistic about what's possible. There is nothing in it for the employer to require the employee to spend all day trying to get in."

TUC general secretary Brendan Barber echoed this view, saying: "In many parts of the country the advice from the police is not to travel unless journeys are absolutely necessary. And given that the adverse weather conditions are causing huge delays across the road and transport networks, it would be very unfair if an employer decided to dock pay from staff who failed to make it in because of the snow."

The unseasonal weather is expected to cost the UK economy £1.2 billion a day and shows no signs of relenting - an estimated 20cm of additional snow is forecast to fall in parts of the UK by tonight.

Richard Fox, head of employment law at Kingsley Napley, warned that the majority of firms still do not have adequate policies in place to deal with employee absence due to adverse weather, potentially opening them up to financial losses and even legal risk such as discrimination claims.

"Many companies still rely on day-to-day managers making ad-hoc, discretionary decisions about allowing people to work from home or take time off to deal with a burst-pipe or fallen-relative type emergency," he said.

 

[MikeJ]

That weather forecast was for 1st Dec, by the way. There's still a bit of snow due to fall in places, but not 20cm.

 

[Esk247]

That weather forecast was for 1st Dec, by the way. There's still a bit of snow due to fall in places, but not 20cm.

About 100 vehicles have become stranded after heavy snowfall on the North York Moors, police have said.
The A171 has been closed between Scarborough and Whitby and north of Whitby due to deteriorating weather conditions, police said.
The A169 is also closed near Goathland and Blue Bank at Sleights was described as "treacherous".
Police said gritters and snow ploughs were at the scene and advised drivers to avoid the area.
A force spokeswoman said the snow was falling on roads which were already icy as temperatures dropped below freezing.
Rescue effort The first vehicles got into difficulty at about 1400 GMT on Tuesday and by 1800 GMT more than 100 vehicles were stuck, she said.
"We've got police, highways officials, ploughs and gritters up there trying to make the road safe as quickly as possible so these people can get on with their journeys," she said.
All the affected drivers have remained with their vehicles and there were no reports of any injuries.
The Met Office warned that up to 15cm (6in) of snow was expected to fall on the North York Moors by midnight.


Think you need to define a 'bit'

 

[MikeJ]

"not 20cm".

 

[Esk247]

"not 20cm".

whats 5cm between friends huh

 

[MikeJ]

Have you met my wife?

 

[Indigo Cherry]

Have you met my wife?

Yep! lol

 

[Vicarious]

"It's important to show empathy with employees - particularly those who normally perform well - as research shows that this flexibility and trust will pay off in the long term, with employees more motivated and going the extra mile when they are able to get to work,"

Spot on, surprised to hear such a commercially on the ball statement from a personnel dude but life is full of surprises.

What I say to my staff:

'Dont endanger yourself or your vehicle for the sake fo getting into work, it will still be there tommorrow'

What they did:

- Checked the weather forecast carefully to anticipate problem
- Stayed late to get ahead before the weather came in
- Checked remote connections to the office before they left
- On a break in the weather came in and asked to leave a bit early before the roads freeze over

I treat them with respect and trust them and they go the extra mile always. Someone on here said 'Kick their arse' - yup thats the way to watch goodwill evaporate and have your own arse kicked