Small Domestic Cleaning Business Needing Help

[ǝɔıʌɹǝsƃuı]

Hi all,

Im new to this forum and it looks a mine of information!

My partner and i need help regarding employment!
We need an extra pair of hands to help us at busy periods but unfortunately the work as you may know could last only a few weeks or months. We both feel that offering a part-time vacancy maybe to hasty as we cannot guarantee the hours would be there week in, week out!

So, we both are leaning towards obtaining the services of an already registered self-employed cleaner to help with busy periods??!

We know we require drawing up a "contract for services"
Ideally say for 1-3 months at a time.

The cleaner would provide her own cleaning materials to do the job if not the customer/s will. This includes tools, machinery etc.

We would not tell the cleaner how to do the job, what time to start, we are un-able to move the cleaner from job to job.

Cleaning times/visits will arranged between cleaner and client and then stated to us the business.

We would give the right for the cleaner to obtain more help at their cost or the right to subsitute.

All unsatisfactory/uncompleted work would have to be put right at the financial risk of self-employed cleaner.

As a small partner/partnership business we are trying to our best options on the employment ladder. We understand the pro`s/cons of having employees and contractors etc. We feel that a self-employed person helping us can build a cleaning round sufficient to pass onto a part-worker in the near future.

We do not have the funds to cover wages of an employee......YET!
We cannot guarantee a set amount of hours to start with, however our long running landlord said they are willing for our cleaner to start their properties once we get one!
Its only 4hrs, but a good stepping stone!

Anybody that currently uses self-employed contractors for your cleaning business any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you

 

[Geoff T]

what you're talking about here IMO is a subbie contract... know anyone locally doing the same sor of thing you could talk to?

 

[ǝɔıʌɹǝsƃuı]

Hi,

Thanks for the quick reply!

Im in Norfolk and theres not to much help here. We are on a budget and have 3 very young children we juggle with schools etc and the only help available is NWES and their Norwich branch is hit and miss with appointment times that fit in with the both of us.

We are in discussion with the Nursery to get the children in more days, however its only then the waiting list.

I just wanted to build up some picture of what were aiming for employees/sub-contractors what we would need to do, who to register with, how to check if their self-employed registered and so on.

Maybe were just over cautious as we were told a story of a company that considered there sub-contractor, a sub-contractor. But the courts decided otherwise! Hence the company having to pay back lots of money in income tax etc!

I need to hit the nail on the head and get the process moving

 

[Geoff T]

For subbies you need to have a decent contract in place, but need to make sure they have other clients too... so they're not just "subbing" for you an no-one else...

The legal eagles will be able to explain better...

 

[ǝɔıʌɹǝsƃuı]

Thanks again!

This is why it has taken so long in the first place...Its a minefield!
Im not knocking your reply, but surely the sub contractor must start working for one person, somewhere along the line! Unless they start 2 people at the sametime?!

I suppose that the applicants i could choose from would already be working for others, so that would eliminate that im guessing!

Also i presume a quick call to inland revenue with sub-contrators NI number will confirm if they are registered as self-employed?

I have a decent contract for services template from business link that i will use to set the agreement in stone detailing all the nessercery wording

 

[Billmccallum]

Why not just employ someone on an ad hoc basis, when jobs come in, you call them, if theres no work, they don't work.

Without being sexist, there's lots of housewives out there looking to make some extra cash without taking on the responsibility of fixed term work.

 

[ǝɔıʌɹǝsƃuı]

Hi Bill,

I have been torn for months whether we should go for self-employed cleaners or getting a cleaner on a "ad hoc" basis..... Its the costs im worried about.

I have read about holiday pay on HMRC website and i so far can make out if a cleaner was working 10 hrs per week they would be entitled to 12.07% of the hours worked holiday. Im basing it like this due to work being irregular hours. I would have to pay them 1.2hrs holiday at 10hrs.

If they were on £6.50 p/h i assume they would be entitled £7.80 each 10 hrs worked as holiday? £6.50 x 1.2hrs= £7.80.

Public liability insurance was not a huge difference in price and employee insurance was fairly reasonable as well......hmmmmm decisions!

Also can anyone say if there cleaners work solo? Or do they have to work in pairs for H&S reasons?

Thanks in advance

 

[Billmccallum]

Also can anyone say if there cleaners work solo? Or do they have to work in pairs for H&S reasons?

Thanks in advance

You would need to carry out a risk assesment for each site. http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/riskassess.htm

Also make sure that COSHH Regs (for cleaning products) are adhered to.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/about.htm

With regards to your pevious question...using a sub-contractor might give them access to your customers, after a few months you lose a contract, they get a new customer.

 

[drounding]

...if a cleaner was working 10 hrs per week they would be entitled to 12.07% of the hours worked holiday....

...If they were on £6.50 p/h i assume they would be entitled £7.80 each 10 hrs worked as holiday? £6.50 x 1.2hrs= £7.80...

You calculation's a bit wrong.
12% on top of £6.50 is £7.28 not £7.80.

 

[ǝɔıʌɹǝsƃuı]

Thanks Bill And Drounding!

Regarding the H&S i have spoken to them the other day(they have been the most helpful btw) and they suggested that i carry out risk assesments etc. They stated since jobs are carried out at different sites that i was to to do a summary of Hazards that are expected on a regular basis.

i.e slips, trips and handling checmicals etc...So i think i have that in the bag.

___________________________

Drounding.....Thanks for the advice on hols pay. Silly me i see how that works now!

Even still at the rate i charge per hour of £10-12.50p/h less the cleaners rate of £6.50 doesn`t mean i`ll be rich anytime soon!

___________________________

Could you tell me if im responsible for petrol that our cleaner would use?
Or should i drop the hourly rate of £6.50 to allow for petrol?

 

[luvbusiness]

You would need to carry out a risk assesment for each site. http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/riskassess.htm

Also make sure that COSHH Regs (for cleaning products) are adhered to.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/cleaning/about.htm

With regards to your pevious question...using a sub-contractor might give them access to your customers, after a few months you lose a contract, they get a new customer.

Oh dear.. gone are the days then when cleaning is done with a feather duster

 

[QuickHomeBuyers]

How did you get this username ?

 

[Naughty Vend]

I was a director of a national cleaning company for four years and you're way out of your depth here...

At the scale you are currently regardless of laws / regs you are unable to provide clients the service expected due to your lack of resource and "balls" to be blunt. Get the worker on stand-by and agreed then get out there and get the work for them, it gets easier as you get more work because you can juggle the staff and volume equals flexibility.

If you sub contract as you suggest start the stopwatch, when it reaches zero your sub contractor will be operating your business for you and leave you for dead.

 

[ryansrs1]

www.cleanitup.co.uk

Sign up and ask in there, full of help in the cleaning industry.

Cheers

J

 

[ǝɔıʌɹǝsƃuı]

Thanks for the replies again!

Ooooh i have balls, my balls have got me into to trouble on many occasions......hence the over cautious attitude!

I have seen many shocking stories on here from others running a fleet of subs and it really is a FINE LINE!

Hands Up, this is new to us and we live day to day for our 3 little boys. If we were spanked later from Inland revenue with fines it not only effects us!

As a business we have standards (as most do) and as i have said before i want to hit the nail on the head and get whats right for us without harming or endangering us, customers and workers.

Anyway....

I have been quite on here tonight as i have been going over the options again and again with my partner. We also have taken others advice and come up with the following:

We already have several applicants on file from random job enquiries and a few are promising. They range from self-employed persons to part-timers.

1
If we were to offer a "as and when" contract of employment (as advised earliar) to one of those applicants we understand that they can refuse work (obviously its in their interest to accept) and we are not commited to supply a set amount of hours. Holiday pay etc is payable - Thats Fine
We have used a contract template and adjusted to our policies.

Please view:
sycamore-cleaning-service.co.uk/CONTRACT_OF_EMPLOYMENT_ZERO_HOURS.DOC

2
I will look at the relevant COSSH requirments tommorow as i will have to rest my head soon. But as an overnight question.. If cleaners were provided with other alternative safer cleaning products would COSSH still apply? We have developed a H&S risk assesment already, well sometime back! I will try to upload at somepoint to help others.

Due to past employments i am concious of H&S requirements and i believe i am not required to have a H&S policy if less than 5 staff are employed.
Again pointers and advice welcome.

3
We already have public liabilty (ammend when employee starts) in place and we are aware that employers liability insurance is needed, which we have quotes for from HSBC - open to suggestions.
Assuming all of the above is in order, we have our first employee?!

4
Next step i believe is obtaining employees P60? And calling inland revenue to check if the work for me only. Then act accordingly.
Ideally they would have no other job as i want the new employee to grow with us and pay would be under the NI + TAX Threshold to start.

I was advised by the Inland Revenue chap to just keep a record of when you paid the cleaner, how much and keep NI numbers etc recorded with payment entrys. I understand that if they work for somebody else i have to register as an employer with IR, but as things stand....I dont!.

Any Advice, Pointers, Pokes and laughs a warmly received.
Please identify anything i may have missed and any help on the COSSH would be great!

THANKS ALL....YOUR BRILL

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

If we were to offer a "as and when" contract of employment (as advised earliar) to one of those applicants we understand that they can refuse work (obviously its in their interest to accept) and we are not commited to supply a set amount of hours. Holiday pay etc is payable - Thats Fine
We have used a contract template and adjusted to our policies.

Please view:
sycamore-cleaning-service.co.uk/CONTRACT_OF_EMPLOYMENT_ZERO_HOURS.DOC

Please identify anything i may have missed and any help on the COSSH would be great!

Hi,

A few obvious problems with the contract:

• no mention of terms relating to pensions;
  
• the holiday provisions are rather confusing and arguably don't meet s.1.(4)(d)(i) of the Employment Rights Act - "the particulars given being sufficient to enable the employee's entitlement, including any entitlement to accrued holiday pay on the termination of employment, to be precisely calculated";
  
• pay for zero hours can be more complicated than a simple 12.07%, due to when the leave is taken - an example I gave previously is at the bottom of http://www.hrzone.co.uk/anyanswers/zero-hours-contracts-and-holidays.

The other thing to consider is that your terms & conditions state that your customers will have the same cleaner every week, but you can't guarantee this with a zero hours contract.


Karl Limpert

 

[ǝɔıʌɹǝsƃuı]

Hi thanks for comments, they have been very helpful!

Regarding the comment you have made about pensions. I have included a section within the contract stating that we operate no pensions scheme.
Was this missed or is it not upto to standard? Thanks

Regarding the holiday pay section included in the contract have read the link you provided and that shines a great light on that issue.

Is there any advice or text i could use to replace the holiday entitlement included within my contract to keep to employment guidelines and suited to my circumstances.

I feel comfortable regarding the method to working out hol entitlement now its been explained and will cross that bridge when hol forms are completed.

Regarding my websites T & C`s they are currently being overhauled due to website re-design, but thanks for the pointers


You all have been great in your advice, i feel i have come further in the past week than ever before!!

KEEP THOSE COMMENTS COMING

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Regarding the comment you have made about pensions. I have included a section within the contract stating that we operate no pensions scheme.
Was this missed or is it not upto to standard? Thanks
Regarding the holiday pay section included in the contract have read the link you provided and that shines a great light on that issue.
Is there any advice or text i could use to replace the holiday entitlement included within my contract to keep to employment guidelines and suited to my circumstances.
I feel comfortable regarding the method to working out hol entitlement now its been explained and will cross that bridge when hol forms are completed.

Sorry, I did miss the paragraph about pensions. However, you also need to mention whether a contracting-out certificate under the Pensions Schemes Act 1993 is in force for the employment.

No specific suggestions on what to put in for the holidays, but be conscious it won't be a tidy, succinct clause! One thing you do mention in the contract is a pro rata equivalent to comparable full time staff, but without such staff, it's not clear what the base figure will be - although obvious 28 days, including bank holidays, it would help if this was specifically mentioned.



Karl Limpert

 

[Country Services]

"Get the worker on stand-by and agreed then get out there and get the work for them, it gets easier as you get more work because you can juggle the staff and volume equals flexibility.

If you sub contract as you suggest start the stopwatch, when it reaches zero your sub contractor will be operating your business for you and leave you for dead."


The above reply is important (sorry I cant work out how to enclose quotes) and I agree.

You are focusing on how you should subcontract rather than whether you should subcontract.

The problem with subcontracting for a regular or frequent service rather than a one-off job (and people hiring cleaning usually want a regular service) lies in preventing the subcontractor stealing your clients ( there are lots of other problems too but theft of clients if the worst).

This is particularly a problem with a 'personalised service' like cleaning, because the customer inevitably forms a bond with the person carrying out the service (if they are any good) and not with you, the original contractor

You can tie your subcontractor up in knots on pieces of paper and legal jargon, but the chances are that they will breach their terms, take your customer, and you will not be able to afford to take any legal action against them. This will always happen if you cannot compete on price with the subcontractor, unless you can offer the client something special that your subcontractor cannot offer. And that is the tricky part.

Sorry to be negative, but as someone that subcontracts a lot of work out, I am aware of the pitfalls


Good luck whatever you decide to do
Pippa

 

[ǝɔıʌɹǝsƃuı]

Thanks for the info Employment Law Clinic i will ammend and re-post contract later this evening.

Regarding the contactor side of things sarah999 we have decided to leave off and go for a zero hour employee to save any future hassles from IR.

We have established its not entirely a wise choice, although it maybe handy keeping someone on file for those Crazy End Of Tenancy Weeks etc!

All is good and thanks again!

 

[mathewl]

Hi! do you really find yourself helpless? there are so many p;people who are in need of some occupation, and they will approach you. I just kept wondering.......how much you people clean? Anyway, keep cleaning!