Slating a competitor on your website?

[darren atkinson]

Hi all, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the following:

My ecommerce site sells high end IT equipment for a very niche market, there are a few specialists in this market and we all offer similar types of products.

In the wider market there are companies offering lower quality IT systems at cheaper prices however they are generally mass market companies.

One of these cheaper companies approached us about a year ago with a tentative offer for our business, we exchanged a few emails but I wasn't interested in selling really and felt like they were just tyre kickers.

Soon after they started advertising products similar to ours at cheaper prices. Their site is a little misleading at times with regards to specification and even with them now advertising in our niche we didn't notice any real downturn in our own sales levels.

Doing my normal competitor analysis and price checking I have noticed that their prices are now at ridiculously low levels. I have been working in this area for many years and know how much components cost, currently their margins are around the 3% - 4% mark which in my opinion is unsustainable in the market we are in.

Now this company has woeful customer service by all accounts if you read reviews in forums of them. Also they have setup reviews with the likes of TrustPilot which on the face of it show high star ratings however if you actually read them it is instantly apparent that many of them are fake, you can tell that the majority have been written by people whose 1st language is not english (they are a UK only seller) and some of the 5 star reviewers have also left 5 star reviews for air conditioning services in the US, kitchen knives in Australia...

Buried further down there are plenty of 1 and 2 star reviews complaining about them.

My question is (sorry about the long intro) would it be illegal or unethical of me to highlight these 'issues' on my site?

I'd rather focus on my own offerings however they are blatantly advertising everywhere we do, have discounted their products to ridiculously low levels, and are misleading customers with both specifications and fake reviews.

Our own business isn't too bad at the moment, it is quiet and that could be due to a number of things however I'm pretty certain that this competitors business practices are not helping us at all.

What would you do?

 

[RevaxMedia]

I would look into online defamation as this could be the case - If you make it generic for instance 'some websites/companies offer' you should be fine but actually naming them without facts or using opinion could result in legal action

 

I'm not a big fan of slating competitors, even if they annoy me a little......I think people tend to judge those who do harshly.

They certainly sound like they'll not be around too long anyway, there is no way that margin level is sustainable. It also sounds like they have paid for their 'reviews' via one of the many forums offering this type of service.

Let them run, just keep doing what you do, and you'll be fine. Let them burn themselves out as they surely will.

 

[LeanneMacco]

Personally, I'd stay away from such tactics if I were you. Prosper by being the best. Review sites cotton on to fake reviews in the end and remove them. You could point out the discrepancies in the review locations to the sites involved but I certainly wouldn't use your site to bad mouth another as it doesn't look professional.

 

[darren atkinson]

I'm not a big fan of slating competitors, even if they annoy me a little......I think people tend to judge those who do harshly.

They certainly sound like they'll not be around too long anyway, there is no way that margin level is sustainable. It also sounds like they have paid for their 'reviews' via one of the many forums offering this type of service.

Let them run, just keep doing what you do, and you'll be fine. Let them burn themselves out as they surely will.

I agree that slating other companies often looks bad on the people doing it, this is why I'm wary of doing it and am asking for opinions.

The issue I keep coming back to is that for a standard person looking at their site everything looks fine, it's only by doing a fair bit of digging that you discover the poor customer service claims and fake reviews.

The company who are doing it have been around for a while so I'm finding it very surprising that they have dropped prices so much. I can't see how they could possibly sustain this for too long however whilst they are doing it they are making us, and the other competitors in our area look like really expensive options.

Saying that though it's not as if they are like Amazon and are buying components at ridiculously cheaper prices than us either, taking into account overheads I simply can't see how they can operate at these levels.

Hopefully you will be right and they will burn themselves out eventually, there have been some companies in this area collapsing over the past year or so...

 

[darren atkinson]

Personally, I'd stay away from such tactics if I were you. Prosper by being the best. Review sites cotton on to fake reviews in the end and remove them. You could point out the discrepancies in the review locations to the sites involved but I certainly wouldn't use your site to bad mouth another as it doesn't look professional.

Our direct competitors are actually US based and both their websites well sell you equipment in the UK without the VAT added, it's only when it lands in the UK that the couriers will call you to ask for the VAT payment before releasing it for final delivery.

This makes them look more competitive than us for people who don't realise this (and from speaking to customers over the years, many do not realise.)

Now we have this UK competitor listing stuff at ridiculously low prices.

I guess it's trying to find a balance between not being seen to directly comment on competitors whilst trying to get across to customers who are researching systems that we are actually a very good option.

How do you get across that we are cheaper than the direct competitors in the US and offer much better systems, support and customer service than this UK competitor???

 

[businessfunding]

Slating the competition is tacky and could even lead to you directing your customers to the competition.

Build your relative strengths.

Use comparisons

If you are relying on immediate online sales - make it easy and beneficial for them to buy..

 

[MASSEY]

It works for the supermarkets.....

 

[gibby]

If your doing a better job there really is no need. Usually firms doing this sort of thing never last that long and usually end up serving the customers you don't want.

Slagging off other firms publicly does look awful but you could turn it around and state on your website what you offer above "some other firms"

I know supermarkets do knock each other but this really attracts customers who are just looking for the cheapest prices.

Ive found its not worth chasing the bottom end of the market as the customers are usually a pain, never grateful and always trying to knock the prices down.

I would imagine from your info that any good customers using these competitors would quickly get fed up with the poor service etc and then look for a better firm, such as yourself.

There will always be someone doing it cheaper anyway, for less profit than its worth.
We had the same issue a year or so back, they copied everything on our site and sold it almost at cost as if they were trying to put us out of business. They went bust owing some of our suppliers alot of money

G

 

[Deleted member 138423]

Have you got testimonials on your website that are freely available? I would suggest that any form of slating is poor form and you really don't want to go there!

 

[Ben Palmer-Wilson]

I read the OP, but not the following replies so apologies if I'm just reiterating what someone else has already said.


One thing I've learnt, is that if you try and slate someone else, it comes across as jealousy, envy, or just poor sportsmanship. Now, of course none of those apply to this situation - it's just what might be perceived.

Now, you can go about it another way. Instead of outright naming the competitor and slating them, why not take all these negatives you've found, and advertise yourself accordingly?

"While we strive to provide only the most high-quality services to our customers, our competitors are sometimes not as moral as us. Many of our now-loyal clients have told us horror stories about previous companies who faked reviews on apparently trustworthy sites, and ripped off most of their customers!

You won't find that here, blah blah..."


You see what I'm getting at? This makes you seem less "Ugh, I hate THOSE guys.." and more like "Hey, our competition may be cheaper, but we're BETTER than them!".


Just a thought. Let me know how it goes.



Ben.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

As bloke says above - Do a John Lewis.

Increase all the prominence on you website about customer service, follow up, after sales, customer care, phone and discuss order before ordering for free bespoke advice, highlight with a ticklist everything that is included in the price - show the customers the value added.

 

[darren atkinson]

If your doing a better job there really is no need. Usually firms doing this sort of thing never last that long and usually end up serving the customers you don't want.

Slagging off other firms publicly does look awful but you could turn it around and state on your website what you offer above "some other firms"

I know supermarkets do knock each other but this really attracts customers who are just looking for the cheapest prices.

Ive found its not worth chasing the bottom end of the market as the customers are usually a pain, never grateful and always trying to knock the prices down.

I would imagine from your info that any good customers using these competitors would quickly get fed up with the poor service etc and then look for a better firm, such as yourself.

There will always be someone doing it cheaper anyway, for less profit than its worth.
We had the same issue a year or so back, they copied everything on our site and sold it almost at cost as if they were trying to put us out of business. They went bust owing some of our suppliers alot of money

G

I agree that there is no point in serving the low end of the market and we never really have, saying that we are not ridiculously expensive either, I've always felt that we offer quality products at competitive (but not cheap) prices.

We have always done pretty well to be honest and it is a nice business overall, our year started really strongly however we suffered a pretty slow March and April has not really improved.

If we continued performing at these levels the business would still be profitable, it's not like the situation is dire in any way, however I think it is more than a coincidence that things have gotten quieter whilst this competitor has started acting the way they have,

The problem is that customers of ours generally make a one off purchase which 'should' last them a minimum of 1 - 2 years if not considerably longer so it's not like we have the opportunity to pick them up as customers in the short term if we miss them to a competitor.

Thanks for your comments though, much appreciated.

 

[Findermonkey]

I personally wouldn't make your potential customers aware of the competition no matter how bad. By mentioning another company in a negative light will not look good on you.

 

[darren atkinson]

I read the OP, but not the following replies so apologies if I'm just reiterating what someone else has already said.


One thing I've learnt, is that if you try and slate someone else, it comes across as jealousy, envy, or just poor sportsmanship. Now, of course none of those apply to this situation - it's just what might be perceived.

Now, you can go about it another way. Instead of outright naming the competitor and slating them, why not take all these negatives you've found, and advertise yourself accordingly?

"While we strive to provide only the most high-quality services to our customers, our competitors are sometimes not as moral as us. Many of our now-loyal clients have told us horror stories about previous companies who faked reviews on apparently trustworthy sites, and ripped off most of their customers!

You won't find that here, blah blah..."


You see what I'm getting at? This makes you seem less "Ugh, I hate THOSE guys.." and more like "Hey, our competition may be cheaper, but we're BETTER than them!".


Just a thought. Let me know how it goes.



Ben.

Thanks for the comments.

I agree that it could look bad on us if we directly mention other companies, I guess I already knew this...

I already try and differentiate ourselves against the competition and have always felt like it has worked well for us however I think my frustrations currently are because it looks as though someone is offering an almost like for like product at a significantly lower cost.

Combined with the fact that they are misleading at times on specifications and they use fake reviews then it means we are having to put in a lot of work to be seen to compete against them in the eyes of potential customers when in fact we are superior in almost every respect.

I'm currently in the process of review / rewriting some of our landing pages and looking into ways we can increase the perceived value against the competition and roll this out across our landing and product pages.

 

[bdw]

My question is (sorry about the long intro) would it be illegal or unethical of me to highlight these 'issues' on my site?

As Massey said earlier, there is nothing wrong with this. Asda base most of their advertising on being cheaper than their competitors and they are happy to name them. Lot's of companies do it so if you think it is right for you go ahead and try it.

I would just refrain from naming them. You could put a feature on your home page stating something like, "We believe our prices to be the fairest in the market. Here's what happens when you go cheap, blah, blah." and link to the worst reviews of your competitor. That way you are not specifically naming them and it's the other site that is responsible for what is said. IANAL but I doubt that this would be illegal.

.

 

[cjd]

It's not normally a good idea to name your competitors then have a go at them. It can look bad and lets them know that they've rattled you. If their prices are not sustainable and their service poor, they will lose out in the end.

We have similar types of problems in that it's fairly easy to knock together a hobby scale phone service for not very much and pretend that you're a telephone company. Others try trick pricing to make themselves look cheaper than they are.

I think it best to explain what you do properly and if necessary give customers advice on how to do their own comparisons. For example we have these sentence on our pricing page:

"All our calls are calculated to a fraction of a second with a minimum charge of 1p (ex VAT). Diverted calls are charged at the same rate as dialled calls.

When comparing our prices with others, please check their minimum price and minimum duration charges – it makes a very big difference to your final bill."

Yesterday we had an enquiry from a customer asking about our service versus a competitor. We simply invited him to try to find a telephone support number on their site....

 

[darren atkinson]

Thanks for all the advice people, after some more thought I agree that slating a competitor is going to look bad on me, even if they are deceiving customers with fake reviews and misleading specs and pricing.

I'm currently leaning towards the idea of a price comparison against this particular competitor and some of the more specialist rivals.

The obvious negative with this is that I could end up highlighting competitors which people may not have considered however I believe most people looking to spend this amount of money would probably have found the competition anyway.

If I can try and highlight this on the site in the right way I think it could potentially be a good thing to do as I can perhaps highlight our great customer service which could prompt people to investigate the reviews on other sites without me directly mentioning them...

Bloody nightmare eh!

 

[aicomms]

I would not go down the road of slating wtc you could say open ended comments such as better than our competitors but if you direct it to a certain company it would just start things you do not want to get involved in.

Also the price thing this is business they are trying to steal your business and then once they have the prices will slowly go up, you just do what you do and if you have better customer service and better quality products and are making a good margain then carry people will come to you after they have been messed up by the other company.

 

[nottinghamdetectives]

I agree with a lot of what has already been said: it is much better to focus your marketing on the positives of your own business as opposed to the negatives of others. One post said that Asda bases most of its advertising on comparing their own prices with those of their competitors, but Asda are such a large, long-established company they can kind of get away with it! The same modus operandi does not necessarily work for smaller companies in niche markets. Keep up your great customer service and believe me the news will spread amongst your client group that your competitors are shoddy and not worth the meagre savings they might offer financially (in the short term). Word of mouth is still a very powerful thing. We have found that keeping our standards up and not letting them drop, even in difficult times, has really paid off!:redface:

 

[bdw]

It's not normally a good idea to name your competitors then have a go at them.

So how come ASDA have been getting away with this for many years?

As I said above actually naming them is not a good idea but linking to a bad review for them on another website without using their name could perhaps be seen as being helpful rather than jealous or spiteful?

.

 

[sla3]

Is your customer interested only in the 'box' or in some kind of turnkey package including installation, maintenance yadda yadda yadda.

If it's just a 'black box' solution then - all things being equal - cost is the ONLY determining actor. (Well, cost + availability, obviously).

If it's some kind of turnkey solution then you would obviously be able to compare and contrast the level of service you provide (including longevity) with the level of service available from the much cheaper players (stressing longevity). There is no reason why you cannot make a generic reference along the lines of "some operate at margins which are unsustainable in anything but the short term, and if you are concerned about your supplier being around when you need them, you need to consider the longer term viability of their business" or somesuch guff

Having said that, there are no guarantees that anyone remains in business longer than the the day they take your money so you pays your money you takes your chance.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

After reading everyone's replies, and seeing that you're already re-considering the action that you "may" have been swayed to take, their is still one thing that you may have forgotten about.

(despite your comment regarding potentially losing customers to other competitors)...

If you're giving the service to the customer, the price is irrelevant, they won't feel the need to go elsewhere or even look elsewhere... they'll always come back to you.

Even if they did go looking, if they found reviews about other companies service, or found cheaper prices online they'll most probably look at the fact that you've given exactly what you said you would do, you've serviced them in a way that they're more than happy with and they may get a discount for repeat work... so they'll ask, won't they?

So what, you're a little bit more expensive than any competitor that is out there? Despite the current economy, people are still wanting the best service and product for their money.

You get what you pay for at the end of the day.

 

[bdw]

If you're giving the service to the customer, the price is irrelevant, they won't feel the need to go elsewhere or even look elsewhere... they'll always come back to you.

This only applies to existing customers who are unlikely to be looking elsewhere if they are happy with the service they have been receiving.

.

 

[iArtist]

As someone who does a lot to assist their competitiors in what is a massively competitive market I don't agree with this at all. You get a lot further in life or at least more joy out of living if you hold goodwill in your heart and not malice.

For all you know this person who you seek to destroy with bad reviews is a dad with kids, sick mother-in-law, hospital bills, mortgage, who knows what? Why go out your way to ruin someones life and cause misery.

These tiny things people do to irk or cause bad vibes for others have much BIGGER repercussions. You throw a tiny pebble in a pond and the ripples are massive.

If you're meant to succeed you will do so...on your own merit and not on the demise of a struggling competitor.

 

[darren atkinson]

As someone who does a lot to assist their competitiors in what is a massively competitive market I don't agree with this at all. You get a lot further in life or at least more joy out of living if you hold goodwill in your heart and not malice.

For all you know this person who you seek to destroy with bad reviews is a dad with kids, sick mother-in-law, hospital bills, mortgage, who knows what? Why go out your way to ruin someones life and cause misery.

These tiny things people do to irk or cause bad vibes for others have much BIGGER repercussions. You throw a tiny pebble in a pond and the ripples are massive.

If you're meant to succeed you will do so...on your own merit and not on the demise of a struggling competitor.

I'm not sure if you actually read my post properly.

The competitor of mine is using fake reviews to hide a load of genuinely poor reviews that they have been left. The good reviews they have are blatantly paid for so they are the ones deceiving customers.

The have also started advertising everywhere we do and are selling their products almost at cost price.

Whilst I agree with everyones views that it would be bad form to directly mention them on my site, the issue I have is they are using dishonest reviews and stupid pricing to gain an advantage and mislead customers.

For me and other businesses in my sector who operate with honest practices it is us who could eventually put out of business by these liars.

I get your point that I shouldn't go about weilding malice towards people and I'm actually the type of person who would normally agree with you however they are so blatently trying to con people, and don't forget, its not like they are selling £10 or £20 items, we are talking £100's - £1000's worth of equipment...

 

[iArtist]

I'm not sure if you actually read my post properly.

The competitor of mine is using fake reviews to hide a load of genuinely poor reviews that they have been left. The good reviews they have are blatantly paid for so they are the ones deceiving customers.

The have also started advertising everywhere we do and are selling their products almost at cost price.

I did read it and I saw blatant flaws in what you said,

For example,

They have started advertising everywhere you do....
Yes and? They possibly also advertise lots of places you don't...you won't know until you come across them. If they've signed up with a marketing company it would be them listing them on the same sites as their biggest comeptitiors...it's what's called business. Are you suggesting they deliberately NOt advertise where you advertise?

How would you know if they have fake reviews?

If you know this for fact then all you have to do is report them to Trading Standards as using fake reviews is illegal. It's easy to prove if they're real / fake whether the reviews were paid for or not.

If you slag off your competitors you'll attract bad energy and it'll be a loss leader. Work on your strengths not their weaknesses.

 

[10032012]

Slating the competition is tacky and could even lead to you directing your customers to the competition.

Build your relative strengths.

Use comparisons

If you are relying on immediate online sales - make it easy and beneficial for them to buy..

Totally agree.

OP:- Why do you care so much that your competitor is below par? Its none of your business. No pun intended.

Its impossible to offer impartial advice to potential customers when you want them to pay you money for products or services. It looks tacky and unprofessional. It will also result in legal action as it doesn't matter if the content is true (you are not writing an impartial online review or criticism, website) - the fact you are a competitor makes such approach anti-competitive. Its a very dirty black-hat tactic that can gain you business, but lose you much more.

The generic no-name-mentioned slating is very ebay-like. Its awful (after a while it encourage all competitors to state the same and ends up possibly damaging your trade).

There is nothing stopping people writing false statements even when this breaks the law - i.e. they can be fined but its physically possible to do so - a common example on ebay is warning potential buyers about fakes and poor quality imports sold from other ebayers to gain trust. Chances are, they are selling the same - has happened to me a few times in the past.

 

[darren atkinson]

I did read it and I saw blatant flaws in what you said,

For example,

They have started advertising everywhere you do....
Yes and? They possibly also advertise lots of places you don't...you won't know until you come across them. If they've signed up with a marketing company it would be them listing them on the same sites as their biggest comeptitiors...it's what's called business. Are you suggesting they deliberately NOt advertise where you advertise?

How would you know if they have fake reviews?

If you know this for fact then all you have to do is report them to Trading Standards as using fake reviews is illegal. It's easy to prove if they're real / fake whether the reviews were paid for or not.

If you slag off your competitors you'll attract bad energy and it'll be a loss leader. Work on your strengths not their weaknesses.

I have clearly pointed out here that after some digging it is easy to see that their reviews have been made by people who are clearly not English and who also seem to be reviewing products in 3 different continents...

Despite knowing what I have said you still seem to take offence with me suggesting that i might simply highlight the fact that they are being dishonest and potentially trying to mislead customers.

As I have also said in subsequent messages here I am not going to go down that route, however I don't think that I'm being anything but honest by saying that their practices are not exactly pleasing me...

Are you saying that if somebody started offering highly similar services to you and suddenly started advertising everywhere that you did, had 5 star ratings on their google advertising which when you looked at them turned out to be fake and were hiding a lot of unhappy reviews, and then massively discounted their prices against yours that you would be happy?

It's all well and good saying, just concentrate on yourself and your own offers, but if your competitor used underhand tactics against you and successfully fooled potential customers of yours into going with them instead I'm sure you'd change your tune.

Also, as I have said in this thread more than once, once a customer makes a purchase they will most likely not be looking for another similar purchase for many years. If they get a bad experience it's not an easy thing for them to move on and purchase something else instead when they are spending this kind of money.

I realise I have to up my game in building trust with potential customers, I'm not saying otherwise however I think I have a right to be pissed about them don't I?

 

[iArtist]

I have clearly pointed out here that after some digging it is easy to see that their reviews have been made by people who are clearly not English and who also seem to be reviewing products in 3 different continents...

Despite knowing what I have said you still seem to take offence with me suggesting that i might simply highlight the fact that they are being dishonest and potentially trying to mislead customers.

Like I also said..if you believe their reviews are not genuine...simply report them. It's that simple.

 

[bdw]

If you know this for fact then all you have to do is report them to Trading Standards as using fake reviews is illegal

Are you really serious about this?

.

 

[iArtist]

It's all well and good saying, just concentrate on yourself and your own offers, but if your competitor used underhand tactics against you and successfully fooled potential customers of yours into going with them instead I'm sure you'd change your tune.

I don't waste my time and energy stalking competitors.

I instead created a forum that allows them to self promote to their hearts delight for free.

Meanwhile I have indeed had a 'nasty' person try to make things tricky for me (so much so the police were involved) but they were never competition...despite them perhaps wishing they might be. I asked them nicely to get on with their life and let me get on with mine.

Have confidence in yourself.

 

[bdw]

I don't waste my time and energy stalking competitors.

You can't in your line of business. Your prices and the value of what you offer is subjective. That's a lot different from two people selling the same thing.

.

 

[darren atkinson]

Totally agree.

OP:- Why do you care so much that your competitor is below par? Its none of your business. No pun intended.

Without trying to start an argument, why on earth wouldn't I care?

They have entered this niche after trying to get business info from me in the form of a potential purchase of my business, they then start advertising everywhere I do (which they never did before) and are selling equipment which on the face of it looks highly similar to my products at ridiculously cheap prices.

That is annoying, and I know they can't sustain it, however the major issue I have is them using fake reviews to trick people.

If they only had their genuine reviews available then hardly anyone in their right mind would spend £1000's with them however they have successfully managed to bury these under a load of fake ones.

I don't really understand why some people here can't see why I'd be annoyed by this behaviour and want to draw potential customers attention to it?

I've even said that I probably won't end up doing that but you can't blame me for sounding off about them can you?

 

[bdw]

What they are doing is not exactly unusual in today's online businesses. Defending your corner against these practices is hardly unethical. If I were you I would go for it.

.

 

[darren atkinson]

I don't waste my time and energy stalking competitors.

I don't really think that price checking against competitors is a bad idea...

 

[iArtist]

Are you really serious about this?

.

Fake reviews are illegal. Writing them for others is just as illegal as publishing fake reviews written by others too. What's not to be serious about?

If the OP is that disturbed by their reviews, better to report them than publically start slagging them off?

It's a case, of put up or shut up.

 

[iArtist]

I don't really think that price checking against competitors is a bad idea...

Neither do I

But you seem to do a LOT more than that. It's simply not something I am interested in.

I've been in other industries (retail) where other retailers would come to me and 'spy'. They even asked why I never went to their establishment to 'check them out'. I told them the same thing...'because I am not remotely interested in what you're doing'. I have had someone put me right out of business by duplicating my entire original idea in a more profitable spot in the town. Did I waste my breath slagging them off? No, I conceded defeat and closed, poorer but wiser. If you do something 'different' on a small scale someone with more money and means will copy it. That's what I learned...

There are billions better at what I do, but I do my bit and the clients seem happy with it and spend all my spare time learning and improving with practice. That's all I can do. I hope to be 'bostin' in 10yrs time

I'm not offended with anything you've said, I'm just coming at this from a kharma point of view. I am simply trying to emphasise...keep the kharma good and don't get the gits get you down.

 

[darren atkinson]

Fake reviews are illegal. Writing them for others is just as illegal as publishing fake reviews written by others too. What's not to be serious about?

If the OP is that disturbed by their reviews, better to report them than publically start slagging them off?

It's a case, of put up or shut up.

I agree that you're correct, however I suspect that trading standards are either not going to be bothered or take an age to do anything.

It is something I have looked at doing and I probably will, my post here is an attempt to solicit different viewpoints on the situation rather than running off and doing something before thinking it through properly.

I must say I am surprised how some people seem to think I'm in the wrong here for sounding out potential courses of action, I've gone out of my way not to mention anybody by name...

 

[bdw]

Fake reviews are illegal. Writing them for others is just as illegal as publishing fake reviews written by others too. What's not to be serious about?

Tell you what, find me a case where someone at this level has been prosecuted for using fake reviews.

Trip Advisor is full of them and despite massive publicity nothing has been done about them.

.