Should she be paid for online training?

[Jeff FV]

My daughter has recently started working in a new job - she is 18, will be working 40 hours a week, getting paid more than the minimum wage for an 18 year old, she'll do the job for 4 to 6 weeks before she (hopefully) goes of to University, employer knows this.

Although hard work, she is enjoying the job, and enjoying being paid more than her last job, plus, hopefully, there will be work available when she comes back from uni in the holidays.

So all good, except ...

She was bemoaning that she has to do several online learning courses - safeguarding, health & safety etc - one took 15 mins, but she started one today that said it would take approx 75 mins to complete.

She's doing these on her own time. It got me thinking, should she be expected to do these in her own time (i.e. unpaid) or should it be done on company time?

 

[james_firmsites]

If it's compulsory it should be paid. http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=5818

 

[Anon377593]

My daughter has recently started working in a new job - she is 18, will be working 40 hours a week, getting paid more than the minimum wage for an 18 year old, she'll do the job for 4 to 6 weeks before she (hopefully) goes of to University, employer knows this.

Although hard work, she is enjoying the job, and enjoying being paid more than her last job, plus, hopefully, there will be work available when she comes back from uni in the holidays.

So all good, except ...

She was bemoaning that she has to do several online learning courses - safeguarding, health & safety etc - one took 15 mins, but she started one today that said it would take approx 75 mins to complete.

She's doing these on her own time. It got me thinking, should she be expected to do these in her own time (i.e. unpaid) or should it be done on company time?

The entitlement to be paid for time spent training only applies specific allotted time spent in a classroom/learning environment, or e.g. a set-aside induction period. Online training is a bit of a grey area. Good practice would be for her employer to give her time during the working day to complete the training.

Unless her contract expressly states that she can claim cash or time off in lieu of the hours spent doing these courses, I wouldn't fancy her chances. More so as she's only going to be there for a few weeks and we seem to only be talking about very small amounts of time.

Personally, I would just ask for time during the day to do the bulk of them, and swallow the extra few minutes. At the end of the day, it's all good stuff for her CV, isn't it?

 

[james_firmsites]

The entitlement to be paid for time spent training only applies specific allotted time spent in a classroom/learning environment, or e.g. a set-aside induction period. Online training is a bit of a grey area.

If they are required by their employer to do it I don't see how its a grey area, national min wage applies to all work you are required to perform, unless she is on a salary (which I'm guessing not for a 6 week role)

https://worksmart.org.uk/work-right...ployer-says-i-have-attend-training-outside-my
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/national-minimum-wage-manual/nmwm08190

 

[Jeff FV]

She’s going to do the training in her own time as it’s a good job, and she doesn’t want to make a fuss, and the employer is part of a national chain, so she may be able to get part time a job at a different site with them when she goes off to uni.

But it did get me thinking about the legality of this sort of thing.

I’ve had to do similar online training for my job, all a bit rubbish and tick box-y, catering to the lowest common denominator, but as a salaried employee all I can do is whinge about it. I do feel that it’s a bit rich to expect my daughter, who is getting circa £7.50an hour, to spend a couple of hours of her own time. (My wife, who works for Sainsbury’s, comes off the shop floor in paid work time to do hers)

 

[Anon377593]

Online training is, by its nature, designed to be small bite sized compliance type stuff which an employee can do in chunks. The custom and practice is that the employee is given a reasonable amount off-floor-time (OFT) in which to complete it.

If we had a situation where the employee did not have easy access to a computer and was being asked to take on substantial hours of online training then we would need to see the contract, ask why the training needed to be online instead of in a more formal and probably appropriate setting, and find out why the employer can’t accommodate the OFT. To my knowledge this hasn’t yet happened, hence it’s a grey area. As I said, online training is by it’s nature designed to short and snappy. (Incidentally, speaking as someone who’s designed and rolled out a lot of it, I would query the 75 hours – but that’s another discussion.)

Finally, on a separate but related note, the payment and expectation rule only usually applies to employees or staff with more than 26 weeks service. As our lady is a temporary worker, this skews the all round situation a little too.

 

[Anon377593]

She’s going to do the training in her own time as it’s a good job, and she doesn’t want to make a fuss, and the employer is part of a national chain, so she may be able to get part time a job at a different site with them when she goes off to uni.

But it did get me thinking about the legality of this sort of thing.

I’ve had to do similar online training for my job, all a bit rubbish and tick box-y, catering to the lowest common denominator, but as a salaried employee all I can do is whinge about it. I do feel that it’s a bit rich to expect my daughter, who is getting circa £7.50an hour, to spend a couple of hours of her own time. (My wife, who works for Sainsbury’s, comes off the shop floor in paid work time to do hers)

Jeff, in principle I probably agree with you. That said, most of the youngsters I meet are very fluid about it. I think as training becomes more and more web based, the line between work and personal time is blurring. Most of the training/L&D research tells us that Gen Z are happy to do it in their own time if they can see its value and access it from their phones. They're an unusual bunch!

 

[Jeff FV]

(Incidentally, speaking as someone who’s designed and rolled out a lot of it, I would query the 75 hours – but that’s another discussion.)
.

75 mins not hours!!!

(As it happens, she completed it in 45 mins)

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I’m genuinely intrigued by this.

The entitlement to be paid for time spent training only applies specific allotted time spent in a classroom/learning environment, or e.g. a set-aside induction period. Online training is a bit of a grey area. Good practice would be for her employer to give her time during the working day to complete the training.


Unless her contract expressly states that she can claim cash or time off in lieu of the hours spent doing these courses, I wouldn't fancy her chances. More so as she's only going to be there for a few weeks and we seem to only be talking about very small amounts of time.

I don’t know anyone that claims “cash” as opposed to their wages, but where, be it in the Employment Rights Act, or the Minimum Wage Regulations, or wherever, does it allow an employer to expect someone to perform training as part of their duties, without an obligation to pay for that working time?


Perhaps there’s case law that says if you were training for the job, but not in a classroom/learning environment, laws applying to wages don’t apply. (Can’t find this in Tolley’s, but I probably need to do some learning.)

Online training is, by its nature, designed to be small bite sized compliance type stuff which an employee can do in chunks. The custom and practice is that the employee is given a reasonable amount off-floor-time (OFT) in which to complete it.

I wish! I’ve got huge training materials to work on; none of it is bite-sized.

Finally, on a separate but related note, the payment and expectation rule only usually applies to employees or staff with more than 26 weeks service. As our lady is a temporary worker, this skews the all round situation a little too.

Perhaps this clears it all up: employees aren’t entitled to wages for all their worked hours until they’ve been employed for 6 months – 26 weeks.


I really must learn about employment law...!


In a bite size chunk, @Maridonna can you point us to where exactly in law staff are only entitled to be paid for training time if it’s in a classroom (or similar), or why this would only apply if they’ve been employed for more than 26 weeks?


It could well be an obscure section of law that says “minimum wage & other laws don’t apply if the training is bite-size, done at home” or similar. Or it could equally be (I suggest is) bollox.



Karl Limpert

 

[Anon377593]

I’m genuinely intrigued by this.

Now I know why I stopped getting into this stuff online.

My answer was a practical one rather than a strictly legal one. I've passed employment law exams too.

I've set out my answer above and I'm not going to go over it again. Nor am I going to trade sarcasm or insults.




I don’t know anyone that claims “cash” as opposed to their wages, but where, be it in the Employment Rights Act, or the Minimum Wage Regulations, or wherever, does it allow an employer to expect someone to perform training as part of their duties, without an obligation to pay for that working time?


Perhaps there’s case law that says if you were training for the job, but not in a classroom/learning environment, laws applying to wages don’t apply. (Can’t find this in Tolley’s, but I probably need to do some learning.)





I wish! I’ve got huge training materials to work on; none of it is bite-sized.






Perhaps this clears it all up: employees aren’t entitled to wages for all their worked hours until they’ve been employed for 6 months – 26 weeks.


I really must learn about employment law...!


In a bite size chunk, @Maridonna can you point us to where exactly in law staff are only entitled to be paid for training time if it’s in a classroom (or similar), or why this would only apply if they’ve been employed for more than 26 weeks?


It could well be an obscure section of law that says “minimum wage & other laws don’t apply if the training is bite-size, done at home” or similar. Or it could equally be (I suggest is) bollox.



Karl Limpert

 

[Anon377593]

75 mins not hours!!!

(As it happens, she completed it in 45 mins)

Apologies! It's been a long day!

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

@Maridonna you made clear assertions, such as

The entitlement to be paid for time spent training only applies specific allotted time spent in a classroom/learning environment, or e.g. a set-aside induction period. Online training is a bit of a grey area. Good practice would be for her employer to give her time during the working day to complete the training.


Unless her contract expressly states that she can claim cash or time off in lieu of the hours spent doing these courses, I wouldn't fancy her chances. More so as she's only going to be there for a few weeks and we seem to only be talking about very small amounts of time.

Finally, on a separate but related note, the payment and expectation rule only usually applies to employees or staff with more than 26 weeks service. As our lady is a temporary worker, this skews the all round situation a little too.

And also infer that young people, or “Gen Z” to use your language, are an usual bunch – how patronising!


But you take offence when you get called out for posting completely inaccurate information, that you refuse to qualify?


As

Apologies! It's been a long day!

perhaps you may care to wait until you’re alert, have completed your training, before posting with a tone of authority.


@Jeff FV 's daughter is entitled to be paid for the hours she works (including completing training for the job), whether these are completed at home, at the workplace, in a classroom, or on a bus home. There are no ifs, buts, grey areas, or questions about this: if she has to spend time on a work-related activity, as required by the employer, she is entitled to be paid for the time spent on this activity. (And that applies whether she's worked there 26 minutes, 26 years, or 26 seconds.)



Karl Limpert

 

[james_firmsites]

Apologies! It's been a long day!

Just wanted to say thanks for the replies, re-reading my post may have seemed like I was saying you were wrong. I was more saying, can you demonstrate why these links seem to say it has to be paid. Not my field, but employment law always interests me!

 

[estwig]

My 17 years old daughter has to do the same for Argos, she is part time 20 hours a week and has to do the online training in her own time.

Apart from this they are a good employer, she enjoys the work so we overlook this annoyance.

 

[Gecko001]

Were these courses specifically for her employment were they courses that gave a qualification that could be used in another job working for another employer?

 

[Gecko001]

Personally, I would just ask for time during the day to do the bulk of them, and swallow the extra few minutes. At the end of the day, it's all good stuff for her CV, isn't it?

If the courses are not bespoke to the present employer, then by all means mention them in your CV, but if they are bespoke to the present employer, then some details of the courses could be confidential and should not be disclosed to other employers at interviews. Might be better to say "received training in xyz" rather than "completed Acme Ltd's course in xyz".

 

[Jeff FV]

Whilst the training is run/hosted by a third party, she won’t get any transferable qualifications or certificates.

As with @estwig ’s daughter, my daughter is also “overlooking this annoyance” (a good phrase, that sums it up nicely)

 

[Newchodge]

As with @estwig ’s daughter, my daughter is also “overlooking this annoyance” (a good phrase, that sums it up nicely)

And allows yet another exploitative employer to get away with it.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand why a young employee will not rock the boat - my niece was employed by Boots that tax avoiding Swiss corporation. She only worked 4 hours on a Saturday, as an 18 year old, but was expected to fully study and pass dispensing qualifications in her own time, and was bullied by her manager if she didn't keep her training up to date.

 

[estwig]

Absolutely these employers are taking the p*ss, but you gotta take the rough with the smooth. If everything else is good about the job, your not gonna rock the boat.

 

[Newchodge]

Online training is, by its nature, designed to be small bite sized compliance type stuff which an employee can do in chunks. The custom and practice is that the employee is given a reasonable amount off-floor-time (OFT) in which to complete it.

If we had a situation where the employee did not have easy access to a computer and was being asked to take on substantial hours of online training then we would need to see the contract, ask why the training needed to be online instead of in a more formal and probably appropriate setting, and find out why the employer can’t accommodate the OFT. To my knowledge this hasn’t yet happened, hence it’s a grey area. As I said, online training is by it’s nature designed to short and snappy. (Incidentally, speaking as someone who’s designed and rolled out a lot of it, I would query the 75 hours – but that’s another discussion.)

Finally, on a separate but related note, the payment and expectation rule only usually applies to employees or staff with more than 26 weeks service. As our lady is a temporary worker, this skews the all round situation a little too.

Are you an Employment and Training Consultant in England? as this is complete rubbish!

 

[Gecko001]

And allows yet another exploitative employer to get away with it.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand why a young employee will not rock the boat - my niece was employed by Boots that tax avoiding Swiss corporation. She only worked 4 hours on a Saturday, as an 18 year old, but was expected to fully study and pass dispensing qualifications in her own time, and was bullied by her manager if she didn't keep her training up to date.

I studied for my professional exams in my own time. It is a common practice in almost any profession. There are few exceptions of course.

BTW. I do not know what the tax affairs of Boots are to do with this topic, but anyhow.

 

[Newchodge]

I studied for my professional exams in my own time. It is a common practice in almost any profession.

I did too. However a Saturday job is not a profession!

 

[Gecko001]

I did too. However a Saturday job is not a profession!

It does seem a bit strange for just a Saturday job. Do the full-time staff doing the same work also have to study for this qualification in their own time?

 

[Newchodge]

It does seem a bit strange for just a Saturday job. Do the full-time staff doing the same work also have to study for this qualification in their own time?

I'm not sure.

 

[millsnboom]

I'm following this thread as I've just taken on a new job at a very well known fast food restaurant and they too are making me do online training in my own time unpaid too. I however am not a young person (I'm in my 40's), I do not need the job or the experience to build my CV (I've had enough jobs in my lifetime already and this is actually very beneath my capabilities, but I'm doing it so that I can afford childcare whilst doing an unpaid traineeship whilst my child is young and not at school so that I am in a stronger position to get back on track with my chosen profession asap). So far I have had to spend about 6 hours doing this training before they would even schedule my first shift and they expect me to do a load more. I am surprised and quite aggrieved that they expect their staff to do this and not pay them for it, as it does seem like exploitation and lazy management to be honest. The only reason I'm putting up with it is that I really need a paid job to get my childcare paid, otherwise I can't afford to do the Traineeship, which I really want to do and whilst it is unpaid, it is at least paying for me to attend various training courses that will improve my CV and my experience in the business sector I'm trying to get into. Unlike most young people, I have very little free time to do this online training as a result, so this does seem a bit much to ask of me. I worked for the same organisation about 30 years ago and all training was on the job. Of course there were very little home computers and internet provision back then. It now seems like they are capitalising on modern technology to cut costs and it's irking me somewhat. If this is a legal loophole, then maybe pressure is needed to change this, as it's not on really is it? No wonder their profits are high (billions), at the cost of their only just above minimum wage employees.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I must be missing something here...
In my first ever job, Sainsburys supermarket, I could have chipped off early or stayed behind a couple of evenings to learn how to use the automated ordering system. Unpaid. I stayed behind but used the system just 3 times.

When I moved on to another supermarket chain the insight i'd been afforded into ordering and stock control was pretty worthless in their pen and paper environment but the fact that i'd been given the responsibility was worth volumes at interview.

I'm struggling to see the problem with doing a couple of hours to gain qualification in something you may never use again but that will give you greater knowledge, won't cost you a penny and could help you in a future job!

PS: I've just spent 10 minutes typing that. Where do I send the invoice?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I can't afford to do the Traineeship, which I really want to do and whilst it is unpaid, it is at least paying for me to attend various training courses that will improve my CV and my experience in the business sector I'm trying to get into.

So in your post you started off aggrieved, ended up irked and would rather the company wasn't making high profits.

Sandwiched in between you do at least recognise the value as in the quote above...

 

[davidlee21]

My daughter has recently started working in a new job - she is 18, will be working 40 hours a week, getting paid more than the minimum wage for an 18 year old, she'll do the job for 4 to 6 weeks before she (hopefully) goes of to University, employer knows this.

Although hard work, she is enjoying the job, and enjoying being paid more than her last job, plus, hopefully, there will be work available when she comes back from uni in the holidays.

So all good, except ...

She was bemoaning that she has to do several online learning courses - safeguarding, health & safety etc - one took 15 mins, but she started one today that said it would take approx 75 mins to complete.

She's doing these on her own time. It got me thinking, should she be expected to do these in her own time (i.e. unpaid) or should it be done on company time?

It should be paid since most of the company do the training work in the office hours

 

[Jeff FV]

Just an update as this thread seems to have reason from the dead.

Daughter didn’t get paid for the online training. She worked for the company, earned some dosh and then went off to Uni in late September. @Lucan Unlordly I don’t think the “qualifications” gained from doing the training will be of any value to her - it was all just generic H&S stuff and I doubt it’s transferable and any new employer will probably want her to do their version.

The good news: my son (16) has now got a Sunday job with the same company and they did pay him a couple of hours pay for doing the various online (obligatory) training courses - much to his sister’s chagrin.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

@Lucan Unlordly I don’t think the “qualifications” gained from doing the training will be of any value to her - it was all just generic H&S stuff and I doubt it’s transferable and any new employer will probably want her to do their version.

Thanks for the update. I didn't realise it was an old thread!!

The process of going through an online training course and learning generic H&S stuff at 18 years of age will have provided some benefits whether transferable or not.